Feeblemind and Suppress Charms and Compulsions

[Yiroep]

So, I was on the PFS forums and a question came up. Does Suppress Charms and Compulsions suppress Feeblemind for the 10 minute duration? Feeblemind is a compulsion, but its duration is permanent, so I'm unsure. My initial inclination is "yes" as I can't think of anything that would lead to no.

[Defraeter]

No, the duration of feeblemind is instantaneous, there is no more "compulsion in effect".

[Yiroep]

I would argue that you still have the "feeblemind" effect in place, otherwise there would be no way to ever heal the effect of the feeblemind. The Heal spell itself refers to you as "feebleminded." Hence, the feeblemind spell is still in effect.

However, I can also see where you're coming from. The "feebleminded" status, if it exists, may not be in of itself a compulsion.

[BigNorseWolf]

Nope. No one is controlling your brain, they've just turned it to pudding.

There are will saves that the clear spindle ion stone in the wayfinder can't cover.

[Yiroep]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Nope. No one is controlling your brain, they've just turned it to pudding.

There are will saves that the clear spindle ion stone in the wayfinder can't cover.

This is a separate issue. Clear spindle in wayfinder only can stop "mind control" and does not stop stuff like sleep and hold person.

Suppress charms and compulsions is completely separate. Under its definition, it can suppress Power Word: Stun, Deep Slumber, and Hold Person, since they are all compulsion effects. All of which clearly are not mind control, but are clearly compulsions.

[Defraeter]

It seems dubious a spell of 2nd level may counter a spell of 8th.

Charm: A charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend.

Compulsion: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way its mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject's actions or the effects on the subject, others allow you to determine the subject's actions when you cast the spell, and still others give you ongoing control over the subject.

Stun is not a charm or compulsion in effect.

It is written for compulsion: "...forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way its mind works."
The spell doesn't give you a protection against charm & compulsion: you shouldn't confuse!!!
It suppress charm & compulsion in effect on a target.
It is not because a spell is "School enchantment (compulsion)" or "School enchantment (charm)" that its gives a "charm or compulsion in effect".

I mind it's more to suppress spell like charm person, charm monster, dominate,...
It would be overpowered if just a 2nd level may control all the school of enchantment... and this school does not need that.

[Diego Rossi]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Nope. No one is controlling your brain, they've just turned it to pudding.

There are will saves that the clear spindle ion stone in the wayfinder can't cover.

It is an Andoran spell:

D20PSFRD wrote:

Suppress Charms and Compulsions

School abjuration; Level bard 2, cleric/oracle 2, paladin 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one creature plus one additional creature per 4 levels, no two of which can be further than 30 ft. apart
Duration 10 minutes; see text
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

Paizo Peripheral

This content is from Paizo, however it is not part of the Pathfinder Core Rules.

DESCRIPTION

As remove fear, except the targets gain a +4 morale bonus on saves against charm and compulsion effects, and charms and compulsions in effect on the targets are suppressed for the duration of the spell.
Section 15: Copyright Notice - Pathfinder Companion: Andoran, Spirit of Liberty
Pathfinder Companion: Andoran, Spirit of Liberty.

As Drefraeter pointed out, Feeblemind is a instantaneous spell that impose a effect. There is no ongoing charm or compulsion to cancel.

Then there is another point, from Feeblemind description: "The subject remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind."
So the spell specify what can be used to cure its effect. As there isn't a specific exception in Suppress Charms and Compulsions text it don't affect feeblemind.

[Yiroep]

Defraeter wrote:

It is written for compulsion: "...forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way its mind works."

The spell doesn't give you a protection against charm & compulsion: you shouldn't confuse!!!
It suppress charm & compulsion in effect on a target.
It is not because a spell is "School enchantment (compulsion)" or "School enchantment (charm)" that its gives a "charm or compulsion in effect".

If the spell "suppress charms and compulsions" doesn't protect you and suppress charms and compulsions, then what does it do? It seems VERY arbitrary to say that one spell that has Enchantment (compulsion) is a compulsion whereas another that also has Enchantment (compulsion) is not.

You are under a compulsion effect when Power Word: Stun is used. You are not under a compulsion effect if Sound Burst or Stunning Fist was used, for example.

Whether or not this is "balanced" or "not balanced" is not relevant.

Diego Rossi wrote:

Then there is another point, from Feeblemind description: "The subject remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind."
So the spell specify what can be used to cure its effect. As there isn't a specific exception in Suppress Charms and Compulsions text it don't affect feeblemind.

Ah, that's what I was looking for. Thanks. So it does not work.

[Defraeter]

Yiroep wrote:

If the spell "suppress charms and compulsions" doesn't protect you and suppress charms and compulsions, then what does it do? It seems VERY arbitrary to say that one spell that has Enchantment (compulsion) is a compulsion whereas another that also has Enchantment (compulsion) is not.

You are under a compulsion effect when Power Word: Stun is used. You are not under a compulsion effect if Sound Burst or Stunning Fist was used, for example.

Whether or not this is "balanced" or "not balanced" is not relevant.

No, they didn't write charm and compulsion are suppressed, but charms and compulsions in effect are suppressed.

Stun or death are charm/compulsion "effects"? I don't think so.

And that's the game is balanced is relevant: it's even the heart of the game.
That's what i'm waiting from my players if we want to have a fair and pleasant game.

EDIT: to be more accurate
stun/blinded/etc... are conditions, not a charm/compulsion in effect
Conditions PRD
nothing to do with modifying subject's free will "A charm makes the subject a friend of the caster; a compulsion makes the subject obey the caster."

[Yiroep]

Defraeter wrote:

No, they didn't write charm and compulsion are suppressed, but charms and compulsions in effect are suppressed.

Stun or death are charm/compulsion "effects"? I don't think so.

And that's the game is balanced is relevant: it's even the heart of the game.
That's what i'm waiting from my players if we want to have a fair and pleasant game.

EDIT: to be more accurate
stun/blinded/etc... are conditions, not a charm/compulsion in effect
Conditions PRD
nothing to do with modifying subject's free will "A charm makes the subject a friend of the caster; a compulsion makes the subject obey the caster."

If you are affected by Deep Slumber and you suppress the Deep Slumber effect on the target, then logically the sleep portion would also be suppressed. It suppresses the spell, which as a result suppresses the condition.

[Defraeter]

Sleep or Deep Slumber:
the sleep gives the condition "helpless", another condition which has nothing to do with an charm/compulsion in effect.

Look over the distinct paragraph
Charm and compulsion PRD

This paragraph is about charm and compulsion in effect...
Especially for compulsion,
"Compulsion is a different matter altogether. A compulsion overrides the subject's free will in some way or simply changes the way the subject's mind works."
The victim is subjected to a form of "ongoing control" over his mind.
An ongoing control is not a condition as helpless, but a "change the way the subject's mind work".

If you look at spell Protection from evil, there is written "...(including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person)..."

Sure, the wording here is vague and it will be better if we have the intents of the devs of this spell...

[Yiroep]

I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this. You keep referring to the condition while I am referring to the spell that caused the condition itself, so we are arguing two different points.

[Defraeter]

Yiroep wrote:

I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this. You keep referring to the condition while I am referring to the spell that caused the condition itself, so we are arguing two different points.

Sure Yiroep!

But the problem is to know if a simple spell of 2nd level may block entirely all a School or just some effects.
The same discussion happened about Protection from Evil...

[Bbeau22]

Do you guys think that this spell is too powerful? I actually changed the rules of it in my campaign. Made it so it would allow a caster level check to dispel the effects.

I just didn't like the fact that a 2nd level spell, that every caster class had access too, could neutralize almost an entire school without even a roll and have it effect multiple people.

[Defraeter]

Bbeau22 wrote:

Do you guys think that this spell is too powerful? I actually changed the rules of it in my campaign. Made it so it would allow a caster level check to dispel the effects.

I just didn't like the fact that a 2nd level spell, that every caster class had access too, could neutralize almost an entire school without even a roll and have it effect multiple people.

It depends how you interpret the words (see discussion between Yiroep and me) which, unhappily, are too vague.

[Bbeau22]

Defraeter wrote:

Bbeau22 wrote:

Do you guys think that this spell is too powerful? I actually changed the rules of it in my campaign. Made it so it would allow a caster level check to dispel the effects.

I just didn't like the fact that a 2nd level spell, that every caster class had access too, could neutralize almost an entire school without even a roll and have it effect multiple people.

It depends how you interpret the words (see discussion between Yiroep and me) which, unhappily, are too vague.

Yeah I read what you said. To be honest that is taking it to a new level of power. I didn't even like its effect on more obvious effect like Dominate Person and Mass Suggestion.

I was tossing around making it effect just one person. I think I had the biggest issue being able to protect the whole group from compulsions for entire combats with a single 2nd level spell. It becomes very over-powered in campaigns like Serpent Skull which I am running right now.