I know a lot of us are playtesting (or in my case reading) the DnD Next rules, and I'm wondering, as I'm sure a lot of people are, what cool stuff I can "borrow" for my own games. I don't think anything I write here violates their silly pseudo-NDA, but if the mods disagree, feel free to delete this. I'm not trying to breed bad juju on the PF forums.
Soo with that out of the way... I really like the idea that players can subscribe to "themes" within their chosen class, which basically predetermine what skills they get, how many ranks, and their feats. (I know there aren't really skills in DDN, but that's exactly what the "skill" bonuses model... a rose by any other name, etc. etc.) I think for new players, or old players that don't like to pore over the rules every time they level, this is total old school genius. It goes much farther than the archetypes in the APG. You don't even have to *think* about feats or skills, nor do you have to ponder what you want your character to eventually end up as, and then reverse engineering a progression to get you there.
I'm not saying that this is "better" or "worse" than flexibility, but it's super handy. I don't see why we can't do the same thing with the pathfinder rules. Anyone know of a 3rd party resource that attempts anything like these pre-ordained PC progressions I'm describing? A database of pre-chosen PC progressions (5-10 per class or so) would be so useful.
sounds like your talking about Pregens?
You could have several options though, so not every Cleric theme *would* include Heal or Knowledge: Religion. I guess what I'm getting at is that given enough optional pre-ordained character progressions, you wouldn't have to level your character. You roll you new hit dice, and done.
sounds like your talking about Pregens?
Not pregens, since those are tied to a specific level. But an entire pre-generated set of skills/feats/spells for every level, broken up into per-level upgrades so you simply tack the new stuff on to a character sheet.
Um, sorry, and don't mean anything personal by this, but I think that's an horrible idea.
As a player, I want to micromanage my characters' advancement: I want to choose every detail, thank you very much.
As a GM, I expect my players to be at least moderately invested in their characters' advancement, too: leveling characters ought to be part of their job. I'm always willing to assist (especially for new players) and advise, but ultimately, the responsibility for choosing their feats, skills, etc. lies with them.
In short, if you want a theme, build it in. There's already too much 'theme'-type cra... ahem... stuff, what with archetypes, traits, alternative racial features, etc., in my opinion. Formalizing character builds belongs in video games, not Pathfinder. Again imo.
@Alitan: while that is a totally valid opinion (which I also share), there's no reason not to ALSO have pre-ordained characters for those who want them. I'm thinking especially about new players who are easily overwhelmed by the min-max relationships of their skill and feat choices, and might in fact prefer to have less to think about. Not everyone reads the entire Core Rulebook before they first start playing and in not doing so it's easy to feel lost. I think there is a lot to be said for "simplifying" the choices at first, and anyone who wants to deviate from the pre-ordained progression can do so at any time, but those who don't feel like they need the customization, can stick with it and end up with a perfectly viable character with a fully-realized "theme".
I never suggested removing the choice. I am in favor of developing some PF themes for those who want them. Like a lazy-man's character build.
I'm not sure if I'd support skill packages, but the playtest has gotten me to re think skills. So I've been thinking of coming up with a new skill system to replace Pathfinder.
Basically they would be mostly the same but there would be a minimum roll based on if its a class skill, if you have skill focus, and/or a racial adjustment. Or maybe your ranks are considered your minimum roll instead of being added to the roll.
I've only just started kicking the tires. But haven't some sort of minimum roll would solve my biggeset problem with skills while preserving the d20-ness.
If the OP meant 'players can pick a pregen or spend as normal', then I agree with the idea. If 'array only' is the rule, then I do not.
DDO the video game does this and it's a nice feature I thought. If you want the quick and easy predetermined route you just select the archetype you want and it selects your choices for you. If you want to customize it then feel free to dive in and customize every choice every level. It's up to you.
I like it.
I can see how this would be attractive to some, but it's pretty antithetical to how I play. My choices about skills/feats/leveling progressions are usually dictated by what's happening in the campaign I'm playing, and what seems to make sense for the character based on experience and events going on around her. For example, the paladin I'm playing in our current game just picked up the 'Oathbound' archetype (thematically customized for my character's situation and our homebrew world) from Ultimate Magic at 17th level because of a recent situation in which she swore to free one of her deity's archangels from imprisonment in Hell. If I'd locked her into a specific class progression up front when I created her, I wouldn't have had the flexibility to make that kind of change in the character at this late date. As it is, I love being able to reflect important narrative events in the story we're all building in the mechanics of my character, and this kind of setup seems like it would not facilitate that very well.
tl;dr Sounds fine as an option to offer, but I wouldn't like it if it were the ONLY way to level up.
I definitely wouldn't lock a player into their choices. They'd have the option to do their own thing every time they level up and deviate from the pre-determined path at any point. However, it seems like fully fleshed out thematic builds would be awesome for those players that didn't *want* to have to think about their skill/feat/spell choices when they level. I'm actually pretty surprised that I can't find a compendium of such progressions anywhere. :/
I agree that pregens make a great option for new players. For instance if there were a "key skill" list that newer players could use, and instead of picking and choosing their skill points could just use their level to determine a skill check. Or even if there were feat "tracks" to accomplish basic goals for each class(2 weapon fighting, archer, etc). I do this with new players anyways alot of the time, asking them what their goals are and giving them a basic outline of how to achive them.
However this should always be a optional path, I should always be able to leave it and choose some other way to spend my skill points or feats.
I definitely wouldn't lock a player into their choices. They'd have the option to do their own thing every time they level up and deviate from the pre-determined path at any point. However, it seems like fully fleshed out thematic builds would be awesome for those players that didn't *want* to have to think about their skill/feat/spell choices when they level. I'm actually pretty surprised that I can't find a compendium of such progressions anywhere. :/
Perhaps I'm too curmudgeonly: if a player 'doesn't want to have to think about their skill/feat/spell choices when they level' I'm pretty sure I don't want to think about playing with them. Thoughtful, creative imagination being, well, rather central to the idea of RPGs...
I definitely wouldn't lock a player into their choices. They'd have the option to do their own thing every time they level up and deviate from the pre-determined path at any point. However, it seems like fully fleshed out thematic builds would be awesome for those players that didn't *want* to have to think about their skill/feat/spell choices when they level. I'm actually pretty surprised that I can't find a compendium of such progressions anywhere. :/Perhaps I'm too curmudgeonly: if a player 'doesn't want to have to think about their skill/feat/spell choices when they level' I'm pretty sure I don't want to think about playing with them. Thoughtful, creative imagination being, well, rather central to the idea of RPGs...
Simply put, not everybody has the time (or system mastery) to mull over every skill / feat / characteristic point in a character build. The lack of time / familiarity with the mechanics doesn't preclude role playing ability (or indicate it for that matter).
I definitely wouldn't lock a player into their choices. They'd have the option to do their own thing every time they level up and deviate from the pre-determined path at any point. However, it seems like fully fleshed out thematic builds would be awesome for those players that didn't *want* to have to think about their skill/feat/spell choices when they level. I'm actually pretty surprised that I can't find a compendium of such progressions anywhere. :/
Because too many will complain that the compendium builds aren't the best ever...
I definitely wouldn't lock a player into their choices. They'd have the option to do their own thing every time they level up and deviate from the pre-determined path at any point. However, it seems like fully fleshed out thematic builds would be awesome for those players that didn't *want* to have to think about their skill/feat/spell choices when they level. I'm actually pretty surprised that I can't find a compendium of such progressions anywhere. :/Perhaps I'm too curmudgeonly: if a player 'doesn't want to have to think about their skill/feat/spell choices when they level' I'm pretty sure I don't want to think about playing with them. Thoughtful, creative imagination being, well, rather central to the idea of RPGs...
Everyone's style is different. There's merit in not wanting to think about build options so that you can focus more on role play and actually playing the game.
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Horrible, horrible, horrible, idea. If I wanted to follow a feat/skill tree I would play a video game.
The main thing I love about 3.5/Pathfinder is the flexibility. I could be a wizard with martial weapon proficiency or a thief with ranks in heal.
Anything that forces me to only choose from a certain subset of skills and feats is in my mind bad. There is no reason to do by rule fiat what a player can easily decide to do for him or herself.
If we want training wheels we should just create "Basic Pathfinder". But there is no need to force everyone to play that way.
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If it were offered in a way that wasn't mandatory, that's fine. I'd just ignore it like other stuff I don't need. Might be a GM time saver too.
But if it is mandatory, and the freewheeling spirit of character-building in PF is discarded, then I cannot support the idea. It cuts right to the root of why I play the game.
Yeah it would be a great option. It's pretty much what paizo did with the beginner box and WoTC did with essentials.
I'd like to play PF, but it's too much time-intensive effort outside of game time for my players (most of our group have pretty much zero prep time).
I think lacking an existing resource, we should totally make this a community project. I would personally prefer to see lots of iconic builds focused on flavor as well as utility, as opposed to strictly min-max optimal builds (which are their own document at this point).
Who wants to take the lead? Haha.
Horrible, horrible, horrible, idea. If I wanted to follow a feat/skill tree I would play a video game.The main thing I love about 3.5/Pathfinder is the flexibility. I could be a wizard with martial weapon proficiency or a thief with ranks in heal.
Anything that forces me to only choose from a certain subset of skills and feats is in my mind bad. There is no reason to do by rule fiat what a player can easily decide to do for him or herself.
If we want training wheels we should just create "Basic Pathfinder". But there is no need to force everyone to play that way.
Well, it was being discussed as an option... not a mandatory new system, so feel free to continue building those characters with every option your little heart desires. And your GM allows.
Its really no different than if you have a new player who wants to be a big axe wielding barbarian but has no idea how the feats/skills and such work -that you sit down and plot out a progression with and for them.
That way, they don't fall into any traps and are sure to pick up the "Necessaries".
Of course, as they level up and presumably become more familiar with the system then can venture out of the package you wrote up for them- but if not they can always fall back on it.
To me at least the trick would be:
make it optional
and don't lock yourself into it, if you chose to follow one. that way if you decide at level 5 that you want to jump class or PRC or something or even shift focus within your class, then you are free to do so.
just my .02 though
-S
I can imagine that it is a nice way to deal with archetypes, but not picking all the skill and feats though having some feats at certain levels preselected, maybe two skills automatically maxed and some swapped out class features wouldn't be terrible. I do feel some archetypes could go a bit further than they presently do.
I considered such a thing as some kind of gestalt PrC with you having to qualify and pick from a selection of feats and skills, essentially this combined with a PrC would qualify you for 'synergy' class abilities, it got too complicated for casual play though.
To reiterate, this is a bad idea to import.No, you just don't like it.
Context. Is this conversation: "Pathfinder should officially do this?" or "I would like to see a homebrew of this?"
Most fights in the suggestions/homebrew forum come down to confusion between discussing suggestions and discussing homebrews.
As for me: if this is a homebrew, it's a great idea. If it's a suggestion, absolutely not.
I tend to take the forum a thread in as what it is referring to.
Since this is the Homebrew forum....
Absolutely my point.
But... I do tend to stumble upon these threads from the front page sometimes. And also, it is a "Suggestions" forum as well — I believe the mods redirect "Pathfinder should work this way" threads here too.
I dunno TOZ, I think acknowledging the source of confusion is possibly constructive. :)
Couldn't you have builds dedicated to each? I didn't imagine it as "this is the only way to be a ranger" but "here's a pre-built ranger, outlining the choices you could make at each level to create a decent archer if you can't be bothered (or don't know how) to build one yourself". There could just as easily be a solo archer build, as I understood the idea.
Yes, which means your playing a pre-gen or following a build guide, not taking a theme.
Not that there is a problem with either of those things, but it sounds like he's trying to do the work over again, repackage it, and call it something new.
In that the 'work' does not yet exist for PF so far as I can find, we aren't trying to anything *over* again, but to do it for the first time. You are totally correct in saying that these would be build guides. Today, there are many good guides out there, but they are all min-max builds, and not "thematic" builds. There are only one or two per class, and they aren't built for flavor, but for maximum utility. I am proposing a database of well-thought-out flavor builds, by class.
You've also hit upon the major divergence from D&DN themes. Those are not tied to class, and these builds would be absolutely tied to the class they were intended for.
In short, I'm not sure I understand all the confusion this is causing. I personally think a collection of build guides that focuses on classic character tropes would be a fantastic resource for new players and players, and players with very little time to work on their builds.
In short, I'm not sure I understand all the confusion this is causing. I personally think a collection of build guides that focuses on classic character tropes would be a fantastic resource for new players and players, and players with very little time to work on their builds.
This is the internet. Confusion is the norm :) And yes it would be a valuable resource for new and time constrained players.