In answer to the Original Question.even EGG who was known to be a pretty hard core GM allowed his players to withdraw from dungeons to rest once they were out off spells so the '15 minute' day really has it's roots in the oldest form of our game.
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The key to Gygax's attitude was "withdrawal". Attempting to "nova and rest" as people put it would have created major problems in Gygax's dungeons, because he used wandering monsters as a matter of course, and random enocunters occurred regularly in the wilderness.
Wait -- doesn't having wandering monsters make "nova and rest" MORE likely, not less? E.g. without wandering monsters, you can use up 100% of your healing spells before resting, but with wandering monsters, you can only use up 50% of your healing before you rest (because you need the other 50% in case there's a random encounter).
I doubt seriously if Gygax would have tolerated serious attempts to indulge in a 15-minute day.
Well, combat rounds were ten times longer and non-combat turns were 10 minutes each, so a literal "15 minutes" is probably unlikely. But as noted above, clearing dungeon rooms until you're out of healing spells and then retreating was pretty much par for the course, I think.
*Upon seeing the rope hanging from the air, Nic-Nak the Kobold-
-gets shot in the face by 3 slightly-groggy adventurers and 1 wide-awake sentry, because those adventurers actually bother to read their own spell descriptions:
Those in the extra-dimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by-5-foot window were centered on the rope.
Sleeping in a Rope Trick does not eliminate the need for sleeping shifts. Stop playing with Wizards who don't know how to use their own spells.
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What Evil Lincoln said before me is, I think, stright to the point. the "15 minute day" refers to the spellcasters ending a single encounter easily by using all of their best spells at one go, and then the party retreats a safe distance and rests. Sleep 8 hours, delve back, find the next encounter, repeat. Theortically, that would make the part nigh-unbeatable if the adventure assumes they take on more than one encounter a day and therefore is not challenging enough in this mode.
But! if the PCs have no time limits whatsoever (allowing them to perform the strategy mentioned above, knowing that time is not an expandable resource and therefore could be abused indefanitly) then why are they even adventuring? If whatever it is they are trying to accomplish is so un-urgent, why risk your life for it day after day, fighting terrible monsters?
Hence, the "timers" Lincoln mentioned. just like spells per day or hit points, time can and should be an important resource in most game. It drives a feeling of purpose and makes the game more fun. And makes a 15 minute adventuring day into a fool's option that would surley lead to the PCs surviving... but failing their mission.
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Answer to the OP question. Why is simple, different people have different styles of play they enjoy.
With that said the "15 min adventuring day" is and never has been a problem in the group I play in. As a GM or as a player the party just doesn't stop and rest until they feel they have no choice, when trying to push on would likely result in death. They often save spells etc and use the lowest amount of force in each fight and good tactics to beat them so they can take on more of them. The reasons why are simple, resting is typically a bad tactical decisions for a few reasons.
1) Wandering monsters, though honestly that is rarely much of a issue. There is to many ways around them.
2) Monsters or NPC's in the dungeon notice, hey someone has been here killing and looting. They then send out scouts to find said people and if they can go attack them. Though sometimes that is not a option. So instead they post out scouts everywhere they can with horns or what have you to warn them. Use the time the PC's are gone to set up defenses and ambushes, so when the PC's return the fights are much harder.
Now obvious not all monsters will do the above, single monsters likely won't, not smart ones or unthinking ones won't etc. But some will.
3) The monsters pack up and run away, this is more likely after 2 above happening but can happen and makes sense. If someone came in and slaughtered a bunch of others and then left. Some "people" are going to flee before they come back.
Then as others have said there is some adventures with built in time limits as well.
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*Upon seeing the rope hanging from the air, Nic-Nak the Kobold--gets shot in the face by 3 slightly-groggy adventurers and 1 wide-awake sentry, because those adventurers actually bother to read their own spell descriptions:
Those in the extra-dimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by-5-foot window were centered on the rope.Sleeping in a Rope Trick does not eliminate the need for sleeping shifts. Stop playing with Wizards who don't know how to use their own spells.
I'm pretty sure Nic-Nak can notice a goddamn rope hanging out of the middle of the air without being directly under it.
Face the facts, your go-to spell for "Wizurds R made of WIN!!!" is utterly useless, and more dangerous to the party that casts it than useful.
I'm pretty sure Nic-Nak can notice a g*!#!#n rope hanging out of the middle of the g##!#~n air without being directly under it.
There is no need to be directly under it. You're a big fan of RAW, obviously, so please indicate to me where in the spell description it states that the window must face downward? The only requirement is that it be centered on the rope. Back yourself up against a wall/tree/cliff/thicket and situate the rope such that it is only visible from one direction. Now situate the window such that it faces that direction as well. Now your sentry can see anyone who might be able to see the rope.
And this ignores the other intelligent options available to a Rope Tricking party: placing a sentry outside the rope and hidden, positioning the rope around a corner such that the only way to view it is to stand within view of a downward-facing window, etc. So even if you have a DM who house-rules the spell, there are still ways to ensure its effectiveness.
Face the facts, your go-to spell for "Wizurds R made of WIN!!!" is utterly g+!&&$n useless, and more dangerous to the party that casts it than useful.
We're not talking about "Wizurds R made of WIN!!!" here. We're talking about the 15-minute adventuring day, and how Rope Trick makes it trivial to pull off. If I wanted to demonstrate how Wizards are awesome, Rope Trick would definitely not be my go-to spell.
I'm really not sure what you're trying to do, here. Rope Trick is pretty great. It's generally accepted as a solid spell. You're clearly trying very hard to come up with reasons for it to not be as great as it is, but you're not being particularly successful. You're reaching further and further every time. Are you trying to make people believe that the 15-minute adventuring day can't exist in a typical game, and that every tool the game provides to enable it doesn't actually exist?
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I guess I've been lucky as a DM, since my group doesn't like 15-minute Adventure Days as a matter of principle, and thus I've never had to deal with the issue from an administrative perspective. They seem to abhor the notion of their characters not doing as much stuff as possible, all day erry day.
Also, I've always felt they kind of enjoy being on the edge; it is precisely when they have spent their resources and are running thin on survival chances that they become the most inventive.
Dealing with random groups at game cons has been another thing altogether, however, and in those situations I've come to the conclussion that having highly dynamic adventures is the way to go, with a heavy cinematic component to justify for all of the things going on. It's not so much about having encounter after encounter, but about getting the party in situations where there is always some kind of urgency.
At the same time, and in some manner to give players an incentive to play along with that style, I tend to be more lenient about MacGyver gameplay and give some extra room for "It's a crazy plan, but it might just work".
So far, it's been working wonders.
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What if the rope is in a thicket?
But can you cast it in the dark?
Don't get me wrong I don't like the 15 minute day either..but slavishly sticking to pre rolled totally random encounters when you know you might wipe out the party with them is in my mind a case of no-fun.I rarely use random encounters now and If I do I make sure they are CR balanced.
They key is rollerblades. Have all PCs start the game with magical rollerblades attached to their feet. The story will literally be moving forward the entire time (well, not necessarily forward, but it won't stop moving).
Don't get me wrong I don't like the 15 minute day either..but slavishly sticking to pre rolled totally random encounters when you know you might wipe out the party with them is in my mind a case of no-fun.I rarely use random encounters now and If I do I make sure they are CR balanced.I don't use CRs. In the years since 3E came out, I've learned that I'm a much better judge of what my PCs can handle than WotC's designers are.
There is great wisdom in this.
CR is a weird feature. It requires delicate care and attention to function optimally; but that effort requires the exact kind of expertise that obviates the need for CR.
I still think that the encounter balance metrics are a great tool for beginner GMs if you can keep them on track with all the other variables... and they're pretty good for ballpark assumptions. But like almost any discipline, there's nothing quite so amazing as a seasoned expert with the training wheels off.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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There's no reason creatures should have to wait until the rope trick expires. They can just climb up the rope and attack PCs while they sleep. If they are stealthy, the PCs' sentry won't notice them climbing the rope, unless you were to house-rule that rope-climbing is automatically noticed. *ANY* creature climbing the rope goes inside, not just the caster and his/her friends.
Of course, this requires you to decide how combat works inside of a rope trick, but that's what creative thinking is for!
Even if rope trick is removed from the spells list, when you hit 9th level the cleric can plane shift you to a fast-track plane for plenty of rest. And at 13th level, your wizard gets magnificent mansion. As EL keeps harping on, timers are a lot better than wandering encounters, for most routine use -- and I use both types liberally, if the scenario calls for it.
Anyway, "monsters repel invaders" might work great for dungeons, but I run a lot of urban and wilderness adventures, too -- adventures that are investigation- and exploration-heavy and relatively combat-light. For those, I generally prefer having one or two very tough encounters in a day, rather than a gazillion easier ones.
I prefer to just make the 3.5 version 10 minutes per level rather than an hour.
The way I dealt with the Rope Trick issue was to tell the players that creating pocket dimensions with such low-power spells can sometimes cause tiny breaches in the interplanar nothingness, and had them roll a d% to see if something went wrong.
After two results of 1% in different sessions which resulted in a PC having his mind stolen by a planar goblin and a portal into the Plane of Ooze, they level of use of Rope Trick dropped dramatically.
Oh, no, it was still available. They kept casting it to try and see if they could get something nasty out of it during dire circumstances, so it became some sort of planar pinata. They just didn't hide inside it anymore.
TOZ is snarkily saying "So you made the spell useless".
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By 7th or 8th level, a smart party can no longer be threatened with the prospect of random encounters in the middle of the night while they sleep, thanks to reliable access to Rope Trick. Heck, if you memorize it twice you can be immune by level 3 or 4.
And if your working your way towards a reasonably intelligent boss, he's going to realize what your doing after the second or third time.
Your going to crawl out of your pocket dimension into a waiting warband that is well prepared with specific counters for the tactics you've been using.
Letting an intelligent opponent know your tracking him, and then giving him time to prepare for you, seldom ends well.
By 7th or 8th level, a smart party can no longer be threatened with the prospect of random encounters in the middle of the night while they sleep, thanks to reliable access to Rope Trick. Heck, if you memorize it twice you can be immune by level 3 or 4.And if your working your way towards a reasonably intelligent boss, he's going to realize what your doing after the second or third time.
Your going to crawl out of your pocket dimension into a waiting warband that is well prepared with specific counters for the tactics you've been using.
Letting an intelligent opponent know your tracking him, and then giving him time to prepare for you, seldom ends well.
Please read the rest of the thread. You're not the first to try this line of reasoning. It's a non-starter. You assume a reasonably intelligent boss? I assume a reasonably intelligent party.