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Hey I read through all of this thread and all of these ideas seem really cool! I am new to hear other peoples ideas and I would like to ask if I could use your ideas Redcelt? Also if I may use them, is there a condensed version of your notes and charts?
Absolutely, you can use and change any of my info you like to your hearts content. I posted it primarily to try and give other GMs ideas and perhaps even a little bit of pre-made content to include in their own games. This AP takes a lot of GM work, even if you are only usuing minimal extra content.
The only thing I ask if if you post anything that uses any of my content, I would appreciate a note about where you got your inspiration if not a link to this thread.
Just got done reading through all of this as well. These ideas are solid gold Redcelt! In many respects I almost hate all you guys on here because there are so many awesome ideas being thrown about that I want to use them all and realize that if I try, the campaign may never end (or even get started)! :)
In seriousness though, what is cool about this subforum and this AP in general, is that there is so much room for the party to go in so many different directions that no two campaigns are likely to be all that similar. Having all these resources readily available though will make future work as the GM that much easier (which is huge when one considers the busy work schedule and having to keep the Mrs. happy and all). :)
Finally, as an aside, do you have a campaign write up anywhere Red? (Like Obsidian Portal or some such)? I'm just really curious about how some of the interactions have been handled by your players.
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For those of you who remember this now aged thread, there should be a few more updates soon.
To catch you up, we lost the queen in our game, and the grand diplomat, one to deployment and one to RL stresses, so we sort of put Kingmaker on hiatus for a year or so. With these two missing, no one cared about the Swordlords and royal marriages, plus we lost central figures for some prominent story threads. It took a bit of cutting and stitching to put the tapestry of the campaign back together, but we have started again now.
Stay tuned for my writeup of the Gate of Endless Worlds on Candlemere, my own theory of why the gnomes fled to Golarion (made 5 years ago, and not in alignment with the now official canon of the First World book), and the current Dark Tapestry/Elder Gods story line the party is following. Night Heralds, Moon Beasts, and The King in Yellow oh my!
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I was reviewing information I posted on this thread and realized that one fairly big aspect of our game was missing from here - The Arcane Order of the North and wizard tests. This definitely wont work for everyone's game, but it did add several layers of complexity and politics to the arcane casters in our game. So there are human politics, Fey politics, and Wizard politics!
I found it interesting that neiter the wizard or sorcerer in my game informed the party of what was going to happen until after it took place, mainly because the more lawful members likely would not approve. Also, these two refused to support the PCs in outlawing more of these "arcane tests" in their kingdom. It has also become a big deal to barter, create, sell, and gather magic items that improve the survival of their apprentices and cohorts who are soon approaching the test. Several current feuds between the Magister of my player's kingdom and other wizards revolves around the refusal to trade items and the ensuing death of favored apprentices who failed their tests. Always easier to blame the other guy than your own lack of good apprentice training I guess!
Rules of the Arcane Order of the North regarding fledgling arcanes:
1. All arcane casters must pass the Order's Testing to progress to 4th level spell-casting level.
2. The Applicant for membership to the Order must have a full member Sponsor. The Sponsor will visit the Applicant to let them know the test will happen in the next lunar cycle (28 days), but not specifically when. This gives an edge to the rogue casters. If they choose, the sponsor may give gifts that aid the Applicant, but all gift items must remain the property of the Applicant after the Testing.
3. Testing involves the release of one or more rogue arcane casters being sent to kill the Applicant. These are the casters who previously refused to accept the testing requirements of the Order.
4. The rogue casters are given 24hrs to kill the Applicant. Whoever survives at the end of that 24hr period (rogue caster or applicant) is offered membership to the Order. Outside assistance beyond accidental happenstance is not allowed and makes whoever accepts a rogue caster (so no party gangups on the rogue casters).
5. Junior members of the Order become full members at 5th level of spell-casting.
The wizard in our game tested at 6th level vs an orc fire sorcerer and lower level grippli wizard. He obviously emerged victorious, but took out several blocks of the founding town of Vallis in the process!
The sorcerer in our game tested at 7th vs a fire sorceress, who attacked while the party was sneaking around in an enemy occupied town in Brevoy, specifically avoiding the attentions of an evil 11th level wizard who was one of the leaders of the occupation. Needless to say, it was a crazy battle, where both opponents were trying to kill each other and avoid the nastier spells of the higher level wizard who came out to stop their combat. Lots of urban fighting and explosions ensued before the PC sorcerer emerged victorious.
The arcane PCs now have to deal with prepping their own apprentices, garnering favor among certain factions to aid in their own research, spying on other wizard factions to determine their secret plans, capturing rogue arcane casters in their realm, and dealing with demands for alliances from various groups. They have also benefitted from access to trading arcane spells and less useful magic items (necromantic, etc.) to other arcane groups in exchange for useful items. They recently founded their own arcane faction, The Ring of Serpents, within the Order.
I wasn't sure initially how well it would be received, but my players went with it and it has been fun. So far its has added to the complexity of being a Tier 6 class and given the wizard and sorcerer a direct method of competing and comparing staff sizes with others of their kind. I will post the spreadsheet of wizard factions and info I gave my players later on when I am home from work.
That sounds awesome and exactly something one of my players (A wizard with a obsessive compulsion for comparing staff sizes) would love. I'm considering joinking at least part of it.
Thanks for the write up and reviving the old thread I missed.
You have actually made me make my first post in these forums I believe. And it is entirely to ask, has there been more to this story? I am honestly upset that I am already in the 3rd module and cant use some of these ideas.
Also, What does dotted mean?
What does dotted mean?
People "dot" threads when they don't necessarily have anything to say (at least not right now), but they want to see how the conversation progresses. Dotting makes it easier to find them again in future, because any threads you've posted in get a little dot to the right of the title in the forum.
A side effect is to also let the poster(s) know that their thread is interesting to others.
Thank you.
Wow, this is fantastic stuff! Dotted.
Red! Update! PLEASE!!! ;-)
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Ill post an update this week...the party just completed an epic story arc built around a prophecy that the Champion of the Elder God Dagon would stand upon the shores of the Candlemere and begin down a dark path that would eventually summon Dagon himself into Golarion.
There were cultists, dark harvests of pumpkins with corrupting creatures in them, strange living swarm cell leaders, attacks on their capitol, the Wild Hunt sweeping them up to transport them to battlefields far to the south (it was fun watching them and their enemies glare at each other..as part of the wild the couldn't attack each other while caught up in it), and finally the summoning of the Avatar of Benthic Madness. One of the beloved NPCs sacrificed herself to save the kingdom and the party eventually triumphed.
The best part...it all started as a throwaway scenic encounter at 1st level, when the party discovered a tiny Stonehenge like altar with ancient Aklo ruins in it. After searching, they found the Book of Dark Fathoms, which contained a prophecy...which they then fretted over for the 3 in game years that led up to the date mentioned in the book :) Far be it from me to disappoint them by having it be what it was originally intended to be - some historic color of no significance!
Story Hook successful!
I have restarted my Kingmaker game over to incorporate your work. The Duchies, political intrigue, all of it. I dont think I have a player who isnt a fan of Game of Thrones so they should all love it. Even had a large map made of Brevoy, Stolen Lands, Mivon, and other surrounding areas just for this
Ill post an update this week...the party just completed an epic story arc built around a prophecy that the Champion of the Elder God Dagon would stand upon the shores of the Candlemere and begin down a dark path that would eventually summon Dagon himself into Golarion.
There were cultists, dark harvests of pumpkins with corrupting creatures in them, strange living swarm cell leaders, attacks on their capitol, the Wild Hunt sweeping them up to transport them to battlefields far to the south (it was fun watching them and their enemies glare at each other..as part of the wild the couldn't attack each other while caught up in it), and finally the summoning of the Avatar of Benthic Madness. One of the beloved NPCs sacrificed herself to save the kingdom and the party eventually triumphed.
The best part...it all started as a throwaway scenic encounter at 1st level, when the party discovered a tiny Stonehenge like altar with ancient Aklo ruins in it. After searching, they found the Book of Dark Fathoms, which contained a prophecy...which they then fretted over for the 3 in game years that led up to the date mentioned in the book :) Far be it from me to disappoint them by having it be what it was originally intended to be - some historic color of no significance!
Story Hook successful!
Looking forward to this! One of my players is my seven year old son, so I won't be able to go full-on Dagon. However, I plan on running the awesome Pathfinder module "From Shore to Sea" to expand the "Abandoned Ferry" location and Candlemere Tower locations.
Any information on this "Coin Baron?" He seems like a pretty interesting addition, in my head he is just Little Finger(one of many GoT characters I have a build for).
Love the ideas presented here. Been looking for a lot of ideas for an upcoming Kingmaker campaign I want to run, but I don't have the time to really get heavy into drafting ideas. Redcelt, you are a godsend for this.
this thread is awesome!
One question: what's the best way to actually incorporate these ideas in the game?
Any suggestion on how to run the political intrigue? I've never done anything so deep as this and I wouldn't want to wreck it all :)
this thread is awesome!
One question: what's the best way to actually incorporate these ideas in the game?
Any suggestion on how to run the political intrigue? I've never done anything so deep as this and I wouldn't want to wreck it all :)
I used the ideas in the Venture Capital thread which jives very well with this. Has been working fairly well so far though we are still early in book 2.
yeah, I'm mostly concerned about the pacing (when happens what?) and structure of the political intrigue. For example, most of the political stuff would happen after the first part is completed, I suppose, but I could really use directions on the timing and pacing of the political intrigue, or if you got examples from your tables.
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yeah, I'm mostly concerned about the pacing (when happens what?) and structure of the political intrigue. For example, most of the political stuff would happen after the first part is completed, I suppose, but I could really use directions on the timing and pacing of the political intrigue, or if you got examples from your tables.
For me, I kind of started off with some of the intrigue right from the outset. If you have the time to set up a campaign document ahead of time detailing very basic house relations (i.e. Surtova and Medvyed get along but are opposed by Lebeda -- just an example) that helps. Its not essential, and frankly, sometimes letting it grow organically can be good. Lets say you have one PC who chooses a connection to Lebeda in her background, and another chooses Orlovsky. Well, then it can be fun to have those houses opposed to each other and see how your PCs react.
So for mine, I didn't detail the actual houses too much prior to game start. However, my first session started in Restov and had the PCs being hired to "acquire" some documents from the Bank of Abadar (stolen blatantly from these boards). The documents turned out to be original deeds to lands in Restov showing that they really belonged to House Lebeda, but acknowledging that one of the Issian Houses had forged deeds to make it look like they owned the lands. Included in the documents in the deposit box was a letter from none other than Noleski Surtova essentially blackmailing the wrongdoing house. (In other words, keep me happy and you can keep these lands). That kind of set things in motion as far as that goes.
Next, one of my PCs had a "rich parents" background and established his family as budding nobility wanting to get to the big leagues so to speak. So after the PCs get the charter from Restov, which it was made clear to them would not be taken kindly by Issia, said PC's grandfather contacted him saying that Surtova wanted detailed reports of what was going on (grandpa being Head of House). To quote the PC "Gee, Thanks Grandpa!"
As Book 2 rolled around, rather than just dumping all the BPs on them I went the Venture Capital route and had the Swordlords give a much smaller BP donation, then had a bunch of other interested parties contact them. House Orlovsky is clearly starting to set themselves up to oppose Surtova and both houses proposed deals which were more or less mutually exclusive (i.e. you need to anger one of them if you want anything from either). House Lebeda chipped in as well, etc. On top of that other entities like the Churches of Abadar, Pharasma, and Erastil all came a calling, etc. This all in the days after receiving the new charter. So from an early time frame the PCs are more or less drawn into alliances whether they like it or not.
With respect to Orlovsky, they have hinted that they will be open to a potential military alliance, but that they may also want to seal the deal so to speak with a marriage that aligns Orlovsky with the Baron's House (who also happens to be the PC with the Grandpa that is making deals with Surtova). All the while, I have had both Varn and Drelev making themselves well known as part of foreshadowing of future events. The PCs have so far come down on the side of Varn (more or less) and have royally ticked off Drelev (had a spy get captured -- using Ultimate Rulership).
So really a lot of it is more just having the issues there without really forcing them if that makes sense. You can have the guard that comes to Oleg's be allied with one of the Houses for instance, you can make the major houses simply a bit more vocal than they are in the published materials, etc., and then just see where your PCs go with it. I wouldn't force the Game of Thrones style on them if they don't want to go there, but the main idea is that I'm tossing out hooks left and right and letting them bob in the water should the PCs wish to bite. In the end, I'm sure that not all of my hooks will be followed but the idea is to let the players choose the story rather than cramming mine down on them.
BTW, you can check out our Obsidian Portal Page Here. Its not the most detailed by any means but it may give you a gist of what we have been doing. Sadly its hard for us to get together too often as we are now up to 7 players and trying to coordinate the schedules of 8 working adults is tough (note sometimes a PC will "wander off" which is code for that player not being there). :p
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The kingdom events can provide inspiration for incorporating the politics. Who is behind the reveal of an embarrassing scandal or an assassination? Which families are involved in a feud? Who is this famous noble who is visiting? Who is providing a gift to the kingdom? And so on.
Really, the important thing is in defining the players. Who are the factions, what are their goals, how will they generally go about achieving those goals. Once you have that, how they respond (or not) to outside events and the players' actions will tend to write itself.
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yeah, I'm mostly concerned about the pacing (when happens what?) and structure of the political intrigue. For example, most of the political stuff would happen after the first part is completed, I suppose, but I could really use directions on the timing and pacing of the political intrigue, or if you got examples from your tables.
I think the first step is to determine how much influence you want Brevoy to have on your player’s fledgling kingdom, and how deep you want your players in politics in the early game. It should be obvious to them with the nature of this AP that politics will eventually come into play. However, it may surprise them if it plays a big role before Book 4.
1. Light to no Brevoy politics – Brevoy is so busy dealing with its own mess, it ignores the player’s kingdom for the most part. By the time they draw the notice of Brevoy, their military strength makes it a losing proposition to do anything against their kingdom. The players possible deal with some trade issues, a few isolated nobles, and maybe so light bullying from either the Regent or minor nobles. This is the default setup for the game.
2. Medium Brevoy politics - players deal with fallout from Brevoy power struggles, some nobles and factions (particularly religious) engage the player kingdom, either seeking alliances or trouble. At least one Brevoy faction/noble becomes a recurring adversary/nemesis and causes problems until the player kingdom deals with them. The PCs receive regular visits from envoys pursuing the goals of their respective faction. This starts somewhere between the end of Book 2 and continues throughout the remaining AP. This option adds some spice to the default AP setup, without having Brevoy be a major player in the PC kingdom development.
3. Heavy Brevoy politics – Right from the outset, the PCs are thrown in the deep end. They receive lots of notice from Brevoy factions, and are embroiled in Brevoy disputes and the “game of thrones” from the outset. They are offered enticements, bribes, and maybe threats by factions and nobles who wish to develop early relationships with the PCs hoping it will pay dividends to them at a later date. The PCs can expect Brevoy to have a big hand in shaping their kingdom building choices, laws, expansion directions, etc. At some point, the regent will decide their colony needs to officially become another duchy of Brevoy and pay taxes and bend the knee. He may even try to appoint a viceroy or duke of his own choosing over the PC kingdom. Good times…
If you choose Option #1, there is no need for the GM to say anything or prep the PCs.
If you choose Option #2, you may wish to suggest to your players they take diplomacy, sense motive, and bluff skills to deal with Brevoy envoys.
If you choose Option #3, you should warn your players BEFORE the game starts that they are playing the Game of Thrones, and better prepare themselves. The PCs absolutely need to take the “political skills” (bluff, diplomacy, sense motive), and at least one PC should seriously consider starting as part of a Brevoy faction in order to have a built in ally from the start. I strongly recommend that one of your PCs choose the role of Grand Diplomat or ruler in order to directly influence negotiations with Brevoy factions.
In our game (Option #3 obviously!), I warned the players that not only would they have to deal with Brevoy, they could expect to be tested as the “new kids on the block”. I emphasized that “you have what you hold” and “Nature abhors a vacuum. If you don’t exploit your resources, someone else will”.
The queen chose to be allied to the Swordlords, and I tied her to a noble house in Rogarvia that had good intentions, but lacked the viciousness and savvy to weather outside forces (a la Ned Stark). This ruler started as an ally of the alliance between Orlovsky, Medvyed and a few Rogarvian barons. This immediately set them as opposed to the regent, Lodovka, Lebeda, and some of the other Rogarvian barons. The queen also gave them an ally in the swordlords, which caused both problems and support at various times in the early games. It also gave her many suitors from their ranks.
I set the tone before the game even started by using the module “Wedding Knight” from the Song of Ice and Fire RPG, which is light on combat and heavy on roleplay. It is basically two feuding houses that are going to make peace through an arranged marriage of their heirs. All sorts of forces and circumstances are set against this effort being successful and the PCs are expected to step in and ensure a positive outcome. In my version, I made all the characters 12-14 years old and gave them all jobs like stablehand, porter, cook, and chambermaid. The PC ruler was the cousin of the bride in that story, so she had a vested interest in the outcome. I specifically told them that if they didn’t take steps, there would be a “Red Wedding”. This set them to spying, manipulating NPCs for information and leverage, and covering up incidences while they weren’t even adults yet. I told them worse case scenario, none of them would die, but thinks could go bad if they didn’t succeed. So basically it was a safe, dry-run exposure to Brevoy politics.
Hope this gives you some ideas Vast!
Hey Redcelt32, i just wanted to pop in and say thanks for posting your experiences and additional homebrew resources for this AP. I'm running it myself atm and my group has veered to a more active political angle as well so much of what you have here has been very useful to help with my own groundwork. Many Thanks Sir.
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Hey all, I am working on a reboot of my Kingmaker game with half of players from the original game and half new. I am going to have the Original Party have planes-hopped to you know where from Book 6, then never return, or at least not in the 20 years since they left.
Many things will have happened in the party's old kingdom, eventually leaving most of it in ruins or shambles. Enter the new party, with a focus more on exploring the new mysteries of the Stolen Lands, and slightly less Lannister-Targaeryn political mayhem. There will still be remnants of the old kingdom, and some of the NPCs, and still a little dirty, dirty politics, but hopefully it still feels fresh and new to the old players.
Just curious, has anyone else taken a previous game of Kingmaker that your party finished or abandoned and run the new game on the bones of the old? If so, I would love some insight or suggestions. I may post here with some of the events that befall the old kingdom in case anyone is interested, since I have 6 months or so until the Abomination Vaults gets completed (our current AP).
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Redcelt32, also wanted to say thanks as I am currently doing a reboot of Kingmaker with a new group of players after starting a campaign 10(!) years ago. My reboot took a lot of your ideas and ran with it; glad we did!
While I'm not running on the "bones of old," I did create a prior kingdom that rested on the ruins of the current one as that seemed to make sense. I turned Candlemere into the Harrowstone Prison from Carrion Crown AP. The old kingdom's money-maker was getting BPs to make a prison for all neighboring kingdoms to send their worst and pay the old kingdom to maintain them. In the AP, the prison burns and the worst criminals become ghosts trapped by a ghostly warden. When the ghosts got loose (thanks to Nyrissa feeding the old kingdom's wizard a false ritual on how to deal with the ghosts, her way of bringing down yet again another kingdom on her way to uniquely toppling 1000 mortal kingdoms), the old kingdom was wiped out to a man.
Our players did research and discovered the flaw in the ritual, but it's a mystery why the wizard did what he did in the way he did it.
Here is th link to the spreadsheet for all the lesser houses of Brevoy and their mottoes. Note that the family names and mottoes are a mishmash borrowed from books, movies, etc, with a few originals thrown in, though most were borrowed from GoT or inspired by it. Enjoy!Here the is table showing the 29 houses of Mivon. Enjoy!Redcelt's Renown rulesRedcelt's Trade Agreement Rules
Good to have some free politically 'throneish' stuff out there for the Kingmaker Adv-path [currently PF1e, soonishly PF2e], redcelt32. ;)
Spies
Every faction and nobleman in Brevoy with a political bent has spies. They are everywhere, from the washerwoman who is paid to keep tabs on who comes and goes, to the courtesan who overhears battle plans and secret alliances. A major portion of the tension and paranoia that I think makes the Game of Thrones style game so exciting comes from the Spy vs Spy intelligence game. Some ways to build this are to have complete strangers or (even better) enemies know things about the players they shouldn’t and mention these offhand, to show their power. Having some of the players spies attacked now and then is normal, and you should also allow them an opportunity to capture or kill opposing spies from time to time.Here is my list of factions spying capability listed best to weakest:
-Swordlords (devious minds plus druids and casters among their military ranks)
-Surtova (ruling families required more spies to stay ruling families)
-Medvyed (extensive druid faction within the Grozni Forest)
-Technic League (hi tech gives them the edge)
-Lebeda (outspend most of the other houses to gain information from
many sources in their ambitions to align with the Royal House)-Mivon (having Pitax and the Swordlords as enemies has forced them to be good in this area)
-Orlovsky (slightly above average spying, most of their info comes from their flying scouts)
-House Garess (average spy network in size and ability)
-River Kingdoms (varies depending on kingdom, but overall average or slightly below)
-Numerian Barbarians (minimal spying talent and desire)
-House Lobodka (don’t believe in spies on principal, if they want info, they capture and torture someone until they talk)
In addition to factions, most leaders, nobles, or influential NPCs have at least one spy somewhere in the mix they can count on to gather information for them. Spies are also used to secretly make contact to coordinate actions of secret alliances, pass notifications of plans that are about to move...
Very nice ideas. I want my players to also realise spies are everywhere, and have them catch a few and see what they do.
Redcelt32, also wanted to say thanks as I am currently doing a reboot of Kingmaker with a new group of players after starting a campaign 10(!) years ago. My reboot took a lot of your ideas and ran with it; glad we did!
While I'm not running on the "bones of old," I did create a prior kingdom that rested on the ruins of the current one as that seemed to make sense. I turned Candlemere into the Harrowstone Prison from Carrion Crown AP. The old kingdom's money-maker was getting BPs to make a prison for all neighboring kingdoms to send their worst and pay the old kingdom to maintain them. In the AP, the prison burns and the worst criminals become ghosts trapped by a ghostly warden. When the ghosts got loose (thanks to Nyrissa feeding the old kingdom's wizard a false ritual on how to deal with the ghosts, her way of bringing down yet again another kingdom on her way to uniquely toppling 1000 mortal kingdoms), the old kingdom was wiped out to a man.
Our players did research and discovered the flaw in the ritual, but it's a mystery why the wizard did what he did in the way he did it.
Many places are perfect for prior kingdoms. I ran with the Brunderton dwarves being the refugees of a fallen kingdom. Going to use cyclops a bit more as well, expand Hargulka, and have a few hidden petty kingdoms growing along with the pcs.