Soft tissues don't survive well. Neanderthals are generally thought to have competed with early humans for living space and food sources. They are also very close to humans genetically.
None of that matters though. If you think they should have low light vision, then give them low light vision.
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Soft tissues don't survive well. Neanderthals are generally thought to have competed with early humans for living space and food sources. They are also very close to humans genetically.
Yeah that's a lot of what I found on the low-light front. As for giving them low-light regardless I don't really mind not giving it to them as I'm worried I might be sitting on too many abilities to chose from as it is.
I think they might have a racial bonus to resist cold (endure elements style maybe?), and maybe a bonus to Con because of their sturdy bone structure.
Was actually thinking of either giving them Endurance as a bonus feat or the Desert Runner racial trait as it a.) covers that hardiness that they would have to have for their environment and b.) works for cold environs to apparently.
As for the explanation to their continued survival in my world it's due to the large section of the continent they inhabit being largely cut off from outside sources and their natural adaptations to harsh cold environs that none of the other races of the region are either as well adapted to (humans and elves) or naturally inclined to inhabit (dwarves). For them the only other real competition on the humanoid side can be the orcs which they handle through superior knowledge of the terrain and patience.
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Right now I'm trying to stay as close to real as I can since I love Neanderthal's in general and would really like to see one that is as close to that one as I can get (and still be fun to play). Also from what I've read they have found that neanderthal's living in the middle east regions like israel or iraq did eat vegetable matter when they could find it and many paleontologist's think those in other regions did as well but that they subsisted primarily on meat as the arctic environs made it hard to find sustainable vegetable food sources as well as the fact that much of their equipment needed to survive was made from the bones, skin, and other materials gathered from their kills.
Currently I have them as not having low-light but gave them the desert runner trait (which makes them resistant to a lot of environment challenges), +2 bonuses to survival, some weapon familiarity (which I'm still trying to totally finish), +2 dodge & grapple bonus vs animals, and +1 natural armor due to a tough hide for their harsh environment.
As for the stats I gave em' +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha. Knew the strength thing and liked the idea of a primal intellect but didn't want to penalize there Int since they seem to have a larger brain then people and were thought to be quite capable of human level thought but might have been a bit dogmatic or anti-social which screamed Cha penalty.
As someone who dropped out of grad school for anthropology, I can tell you neanderthals were definitely not pure carnivores. Probably no low-light vision, since primates generally don't have great night vision.
Maybe....
+2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Int
Medium Sized
Normal Speed
Acclimated: endure elements
Hunter Gatherer: +2 to Survival skill checks
Thick-boned: DR 2/piercing or slashing
Thick-skinned: +1 natural armor bonus to AC
Weapon Familiarity: Neanderthals are proficient in the greatclub.
They have that race in Frost Burn. Take a look and see how it meshes with PF.
Frostburn Neanderthals
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int.
Medium Size
Normal Speed (30 ft.)
Climate Tolerant (-20 to 140 degrees)
+2 Perception and Survival
Primitive Weapon Mastery (Ex): Neanderthals have a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls made with the following weapons: bolas, club, dart, greatclub, goad, harpoon, iuak, javelin, longspear, quarterstaff, ritiik, shortbow, shortspear, sling, spear, sugliin, throwing axe, and tiger skull club.
Human Blood.
Illiteracy: Neanderthals cannot read or write.
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As someone who dropped out of grad school for anthropology, I can tell you neanderthals were definitely not pure carnivores. Probably no low-light vision, since primates generally don't have great night vision.
Maybe....
+2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Int
Medium Sized
Normal SpeedAcclimated: endure elements
Hunter Gatherer: +2 to Survival skill checks
Thick-boned: DR 2/piercing or slashing
Thick-skinned: +1 natural armor bonus to AC
Weapon Familiarity: Neanderthals are proficient in the greatclub.
Personally i went with +2 Str over Con as i felt like it along with some other choices left them feeling mechanically a little too close to dwarves. As for the Cha penalty over Int that was due to further reading on my part as most modern evidence states that Neanderthal's had larger brains then we did and had many of the same markers in recovered gene's, bone structure, and technology to put them on par with Human beings of the time making them far smarter then they are usually portrayed. Also though they were probably a bit more anti-social from what they've discovered as they had all the same mental tools to pick up and grasp new concepts but not as good at social interactions which seemed more interesting then more of the ignorant caveman.
the hunter gatherer and thick skinned i totally agreed with and the acclimated a substituted with the Desert runner trait from the beta test for advanced races and gave them ancient foe animals to represent their high level in training to hunt down big game with what were mostly melee weapons.
As for size i kept them medium but put them at 20ft with the dwarves slow & steady trait since neanderthal's were actually shorter then the average man with neanderthal men averaging about 5'6" but keeping with the idea that this are stout people who probably spent most of their lives carrying their whole world with them.
Ohh as for weapons i went with Greatclub, Handaxe, Boar spear, and Harpoon as they felt the most thematic and accurate.
Their brains were bigger in different places. Not so much in the frontal cortex, and maybe bigger along the top and side and back bits.
So they may have been more instinctual and intuitive (+2 Wisdom) and less innovative and inventive (-2 Intelligence).
But some of us still have 5% or 7% of neanderthal genome in our genome...
+2 Strength would work too. 30 ft. Speed since they mostly ran down their prey.
Probably, ideally, I would go:
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence.
Medium Size
Normal Speed: 30 ft.
Climate Tolerant (Ex) similiar to endure elements.
Human Blood.
Hunter Gatherer: +2 Perception and +2 Survival.
Illiterate: cannot read or write.
Thick-boned: DR 1/piercing or slashing.
Thick-skinned: +1 natural armor.
Weapon Familiarity: greatclub, handaxe, boar spear, harpoon.
Favored Class bonus:
Wizard: +1 spell they can prepare without using a spellbook
Wizard archetype:
Ancestral Spirit Mage
No spellbook, replace Scribe Scroll with Spell Mastery.
Suggested feats: Spell Mastery at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17.
Their bone structure did not allow them to run as fast as us.
You should probably reduce the speed to 25' or even 20'
Another consideration, if neanderthals had any single race-enemy, we were almost certainly it.
The subject line really says it all but for clarity I'm in the middle of building a Neanderthal race for my players and i was wondering if there is any evidence that would say that they might have better then average vision (nocturnal hunters, subterranean lives, etc.)?
Hmmm. To an extent, I would look to the actual Neanderthals and what we know of them.
1) They were very closely related to modern humans, much more so than was once thought. We are different sub-species, not different species.
2) They were physically very powerful. They needed more food and burned more calories than modern humans.
3) They were cold-adapted.
4) By our standards largely carnivorous, sometimes cannibalistic (but so are modern humans in the same circumstances). They lived in caves and shelters in ice-age Eurasia. Interestingly, they never developed bows and arrows, or even use thrown spears.
5) They seemed to think creatively less than modern humans, they were culturally homogeneous. All Neanderthals seem to have lived the same way, no matter where they lived.
So, from that:
1) they are a human subspecies.
2) their physical stats would be primary: I would suggest +2 Str and Con.
3) they should have a bonus to saves vs cold and a penalty to heat. Say +4 saves to cold-based attacks, -2 saves to heat based attacks.
4) Low-light vision may not be historically accurate, but it does fit with the fact that Neanderthals like to get up close and personal with their prey, and with the environment they lived in.
5) They would have a penalty to Cha or Int (or both), and definitely lose the human bonus skill ranks.
As far as I know, there's no evidence that neanderthal vision was any better or worse than human vision. That said, if you want your neanderthals to be night hunters or cave dwellers (maybe explaining why they were able to survive human competition, by finding another niche) then why not go for it?Where they were most likely weak in comparison to the Cro Mags who pushed them into extinction, was lack of a language.
They had the FoxP2 gene and a working larynx, so they likely had language. What they lacked was adaptable culture - all Neanderthals lived and hunted the same way, everywhere.
I wouldn't give them a penalty against heat. We all came out of Africa, or at least the tropics.
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They had the FoxP2 gene and a working larynx, so they likely had language. What they lacked was adaptable culture - all Neanderthals lived and hunted the same way, everywhere.As far as I know, there's no evidence that neanderthal vision was any better or worse than human vision. That said, if you want your neanderthals to be night hunters or cave dwellers (maybe explaining why they were able to survive human competition, by finding another niche) then why not go for it?Where they were most likely weak in comparison to the Cro Mags who pushed them into extinction, was lack of a language.
Actually i think the very standardized culture across the board speaks to a very strong culture as they probably all shared some form of shared oral history which would allow that kind of thing across the board.
Also happy to see someone else with the slower movement speed mentality Weslocke, why I put them at 20ft and gave them slow and steady to show how they were well built and could just keep chasing after prey so long as they could walk.
As for the endure elements thing I'm not really a fan as though it might make sense on paper it doesn't feel right to give them a constant spell like ability as an extraordinary ability that even a mastodon doesn't get. Why I went with the Desert runner (renamed it Winter Trekker) +4 vs. cold environs as well as vs fatigues, marches, and starvation which fit better to the them as tough peoples used to hard lives & lean times in the bitter cold.
As for the whole human as ancestral foe thing most fossil records show that that whole conflict between man and the neanderthal's most likely wasn't a violent one as it was environmental changes shunting them out and interbreeding with primitive man, makes me really doubt that we were hated foes when a lot of modern people carry some neanderthal genes.
Actually i think the very standardized culture across the board speaks to a very strong culture as they probably all shared some form of shared oral history which would allow that kind of thing across the board.
Strong, but not flexible. They did the same thing everywhere, and when they couldn't do it any more they largely died out.
A 'hidebound' racial flaw would be appropriate, perhaps.
Also happy to see someone else with the slower movement speed mentality Weslocke, why I put them at 20ft and gave them slow and steady to show how they were well built and could just keep chasing after prey so long as they could walk.
I didn't see that, good idea - they had shorter, stockier bodies than modern humans, and didn't travel long distances.
As for the whole human as ancestral foe thing most fossil records show that that whole conflict between man and the neanderthal's most likely wasn't a violent one as it was environmental changes shunting them out and interbreeding with primitive man, makes me really doubt that we were hated foes when a lot of modern people carry some neanderthal genes.
They do indeed, on average 2-4% of the genetic make-up of non-Africans is Neanderthal derived. There's one ethnic group who are 9-10% Denisovan, a human sub-species related to the Neanderthals about whom a lot less is currently known.
their physical stats would be primary: I would suggest +2 Str and Con.
Nix. Look at the pattern of physical vs. mental stat modifiers for official Pathfinder races and you'll see what I mean. +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int is probably your best bet.
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Actually i think the very standardized culture across the board speaks to a very strong culture as they probably all shared some form of shared oral history which would allow that kind of thing across the board.Strong, but not flexible. They did the same thing everywhere, and when they couldn't do it any more they largely died out.
A 'hidebound' racial flaw would be appropriate, perhaps.
See to me that speaks out as something that could be as much a flaw of Cha as Int with charisma representing one's ability to communicate one's ideas to others effectively, drive to change the world around them, and to a minor extent the imagination to kind of think up those outside the box ideas.
Actually now that I think about it if you look at it a lot of the most staunchly traditional base races get crap Cha while those that, to me at least, always seemed the most progressive and advancing cultures have better then average Cha.
Also what is the hidebound flaw? Do you mean that they can only wear hide armor as i remember seeing that before but have never seen it show up in paizo stuff.
Give them a penalty to DEX rather than CHA - neanderthels were shorter and stockier than our species, but they weren't that bad looking seeing as all caucasions have traces of their DNA in them (as in the species wasn't that unlike humans, and quite a few must have found each other attractive).
their physical stats would be primary: I would suggest +2 Str and Con.Nix. Look at the pattern of physical vs. mental stat modifiers for official Pathfinder races and you'll see what I mean. +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int is probably your best bet.
I can see why that's a better mix, yes. I would go further to say add a +2 to Con and a -2 to Cha in there as well.
@doc the grey
Hidebound is a colloquial term that means people who don't like to innovate or think outside the box. I was considering a way to represent that as a flaw for the race in general. Something like:
Hidebound: Neanderthals find it difficult to adapt to the new and different. Treat all skills they do not put ranks in at level 1 as non-class skills. They may not add new class skills to this, even if they change class later. However, they gain a +1 bonus in those skills they do select at level 1.
@RachelK
A penalty on Cha or Int is better representative of the differences between us and the Neanderthals. Not because they were ugly or stupid, particularly, but because they had limitations mentally that made it harder for them to adapt to changing circumstances best represented by reducing these scores.In the end, the Neanderthals were what many species are: victims of their own success; when they get good at doing one thing in one way they specialise at it, and when it stops being viable, they suffer because they have sacrificed adaptability to get there.
I think some of the latest interpretations of evidence suggest that neanderthals were much more more adaptable than was once thought.
their physical stats would be primary: I would suggest +2 Str and Con.Nix. Look at the pattern of physical vs. mental stat modifiers for official Pathfinder races and you'll see what I mean. +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int is probably your best bet.
While true it is possible to play other less balanced races like orcs already, also I do not like to hold on to this guideline for an obvious primitive race. I think there is little wrong with neanderthalers being inherently predisposed to warrior like roles, especially barbarians.
I would do:
+2 str/con, -2 int/cha, wiser than orcs, stockier but less strong, their charisma penalty has little to do with appearance but rather stoic, less creative personality.
endurance as a bonus feat, it gives them fair enough resistance to non-lethal damage caused by environment similar to many animals. In the case of rangers I'd allow them to pick a different feat, alertness or one with endurance as a prerequiste ar good fits.
speed 20'
natural armor +1
+2 survival
Weapon Familiarity: greatclub, handaxe, boar spear, harpoon.
The subject line really says it all but for clarity I'm in the middle of building a Neanderthal race for my players and i was wondering if there is any evidence that would say that they might have better then average vision (nocturnal hunters, subterranean lives, etc.)?
I'd say "no" humans evolved a fear of the dark for a reason.
I'd say "no" humans evolved a fear of the dark for a reason.
We have appalling night vision because of our excellent day vision. Ergo, we fear the dark as our primary sense is out of action.
Well, let's also consider some meta-gaming issues.
Doc: the players that will be playing the neanderthals, do they know what classes they want to play? We don't want to design a race that is going to be totally unsuitable for the class the player(s) want to play.
For example, if the player wants to play a creepy witch doctory neanderthal alchemist, making a race with penalties to Dex and Int (and illiterate!) is probably a bad idea.
Conversely, SmiloDan, there's no point making a race and calling it 'Neanderthal' if it bears no resemblance at all to the Neanderthals of the Ice Age.
True dat.
"Realism" always needs to take a back seat to playability, in my mind. If you make a PC race with Str and Con bonuses, "offset" by Int and Cha penalties, then in essence you're telling fighters and barbarians that they pretty much have to take that race or end up substandard. Likewise, if I made a race called "holy ones" and gave them +2 Wis, Cha and -2 Dex, I'm pretty much telling clerics to play that race. And that's not even getting into long strings of attribute modifiers, other than the standard +2/+2/-2 for Pathfinder.
Also note that gorillas in Pathfinder are incredibly weak compared to their real-life counterparts, so if you want to model the supposed strength of Neanderthals "realistically," you'll need to redo the whole scale of primate strength scores as well. And don't get me started on chimps and cows being "equally" intelligent (Int 2) in Pathfinder, whereas chimps INRL can learn sign language and teach it to their offspring.
If you want "realistic" hominids, you need to go far beyond just looking at Neanderthals, or the whole game gets out of whack around that.
I'm not sure that Neanderthals are really that much stronger than Cro-Magnons. They are arguably in better physical tone than most office bound Westerners perhaps.
As good a reason to give the +2 strength as any, though I am fairly certain there solid bone structure tends to make them stronger. Likewise culture and racial tendencies can cause a -2 int penalty, similar to the weapon familiarity. You can always make an alternate neanderthaler and call it 'advanced neanderthaler' if you will with different racial abilities.
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Well, let's also consider some meta-gaming issues.
Doc: the players that will be playing the neanderthals, do they know what classes they want to play? We don't want to design a race that is going to be totally unsuitable for the class the player(s) want to play.
For example, if the player wants to play a creepy witch doctory neanderthal alchemist, making a race with penalties to Dex and Int (and illiterate!) is probably a bad idea.
Exactly! The other issue I wanted to make sure not make was to pigeon hole the race into a few certain classes that it can play and nothing else. This race is meant to be one of the Base races in the region it comes from and I liked that you could function in a variety of classes that you may not have thought of like orders of primal Neanderthal wizards and alchemists who's spell books have bark & stone pages with cave painting esque formula or a Tetori Neanderthal who wrestles mammoths to the ground with it's bare hands, Ohh I really like that one might have to build that and with animals as there ancient foe that will be awesome. But yeah the point is to make them flavorful as a race but don't pigeon hole peoples creativity.