sneaky touch attacks

[will_asher]

Did a search, but didn't find another thread which answered this question (not even sure which subforum this should go in since I don't think there's any actual rule about this):
How do you handle making a touch attack before combat has started?

For example, say there's an antipaladin in disguise who goes to shake a PC's hand or pat him on the back and decides to use his touch of corruption at the same time?

You could have a very similar situation with a green hag and her touch of weakness combined with alter self.

I'm guessing the PCs don't get a chance to react until after it happens. (since they probably already failed their perception/sense motive check to realise that the antipaladin is an enemy) Would that count as a surprise round in combat?

EDIT: As a kindof semi-related question, one touch spell, death knell, targets a dying creature but allows a will save. If a character is dying then they're unconsious. I thought you automatically fail all saves when you're unconsious?

[Mojorat]

once the effect is in play its generally assumed there is some effect on the hand to idicate its tere. Example crackling with black energy in tge antipaladin case he can activate it while holding their hand.

I woukd give a sense motive or perception roll nto notice if anything is up. Probly tested vs bluff or stealth as te AP tries to give off an im harmless vibe.

[HangarFlying]

To your first question, I imagine you might get varying answers and all could be considered correct. That being said, I would probably rule it as such: since the ntipalidin is interacting directly with only one PC, I would say that only those two would be able to act in a surprise round. The PC should be allowed a sense motive check to detect anything untowards, otherwise it's just the bad guy acting, then a normal round after that.

To the second question, it is possible to be conscious with negative hit points. That being said, I can't find where it says that if you're unconscious you are denied a will save. I'm not saying it isn't there, I just can't find it.

[will_asher]

About the second question, on a second look I realized the place it says that you automatically fail all saves is only in spell descriptions like enter image where the caster's body is left unattended. So normally (while the spirit is still in the body) he would still be allowed saving throws even when unconsious. So nevermind that question...