yeah this is getting too confrontational. I'm with Cheapy, until you broaden your suggested class alternatives to AT and discuss their merits, this isn't as much of a guide.
Also expert has put a LOT of effort into this and is getting a little to defensive on people questioning his choices. Take a breath guys its just an opinion about a game.
Precisely. Take what you like and leave the rest. Having actually played such characters, I've seen changes in the game that make them even better. The options now allow for all kinds of cool stuff. If you see one I didn't, good for you. If you ever play any kind of trickster, have fun with it. If anything in the guide helps, great. If not, do it your way.
I've read a lot of guides. I didn't agree with everything they all said. That didn't make them useless.
And with that, I'm done here.
Looks like your guide was added to the Guide to the Guides.
Alright, rereviewed the guide -- I still think you are selling the vivisectionist short though especially for a wizard. It takes out the need for UMD (almost completely) gets you sneak attack, a nice self buff (mutagen -- dexterity), and a nice boost to your fortitude save (+3 compared to +1).
Feats I like:
Persistent spell -- Many of the really nice spells for an AT are those with damage and a kicker effect... when the foe has to roll twice and take the worse save throw that kicker can keep you landing sneak attacks round after round with your opponent crippled. A rod of persistent for 'big fights' is fine, but at higher level a persistent metamagic can be quite the thing for humbling the enemy.
The big three of archery (point blank, precise, and improved precise shot) -- I went over why earlier and I still stand by those thoughts -- denying your enemy up to an effective +8 to his touch AC is always a good thing.
Spells I like:
Elemental Touch -- Spell economy and a kicker effect. You get multiple rounds out of this spell and you can stagger your opponent too, leaving him with either a standard action or a move action. The damage is low but you'll be adding sneak attack to it so you are making up for that. The fact you get to choose the element when you cast the spell gives it that much more versatility.
Ear-Piercing scream -- This isn't one I would take immediately. However once you have your 10th level in AT it starts looking much nicer. It's sonic damage and a chance to daze (read take their action away) which is a great combination.
Fiery Shuriken -- Now it is fire damage so that kind of stinks... but I want to show you something very nice about this spell... It gives up to 8 separate attack rolls when cast. That's right, you have a chance to do 8d8+56d6 fire damage from one spell when maxed out, either concentrated or spread out amongst up to 8 targets. That's handy. You can also save it to spread out over multiple rounds. It also functions fairly well at low levels since you start with two shurikens.
Force Punch -- up to 10d4 force damage and it moves your opponent away from you (maybe). This can be useful for when you want to move up and hurt someone... but don't want to be in a position to be hurt back afterward.
Heatstroke -- It's only 1d4 nonlethal damage, but you get your sneak attack added to that of course and it functions as ray of exhaustion (which is a 3rd level spell by itself)... so you are getting the damage and exhaustion with a -4 to their save throw if they are wearing armor (or heavy clothing). What else? Well it is evocation so it will likely play well with your spell focus too and still affects things that are immune to necromancy. That's quite a deal for an AT.
Fractions of Heal and Harm -- It's a swift action spell that lowers your damage to 75% for your next AOE... but you heal the other 25% of the damage you would have done. Once you are adding your sneak attack damage to AOE spells that can be a fairly substantial boost. However it's still rather situational since 1. you have to be hurt, and 2. you have to be high enough level to cast fractions of heal and harm while still getting your sneak attack damage on your AOE spell.
For wizard subschools I like:
Admixture -- now you still get the bonus damage (even though it is low) but the better part is changing the energy type. This helps make sure you get the damage out in a way that will hurt the target.
Teleport -- Easy enough to understand I think.
Foresight -- You know what's great? Rolling a 1 on your attack roll for a spell and instead deciding to take that 12 you rolled earlier instead.
For sorcerer bloodlines I like:
Aberrant -- though if you think you'll have the feats (for some reason) it makes a decent eldritch heritage too.
Orc -- bonus damage based on the number of dice? Yes please! The abilities kind of stink so it might be worth while to crossblood it -- possibly with the sage bloodline for a ray and faster metamagic...
Those are my current thoughts -- I'm sure I'll post more as I come up with them.
i would reccomend weighing other options besides just the elf rogue/wizard.
the vivisectionist is a valid choice for a rogue alternative. please don't sell it too short before you weigh it. try weighing it against the rogue and ninja.
i would also reccomend reading into the strengths of the sorcerer and witch as well as the wizard. try looking a possible wizard options besides evoker and reccomended schools to ban.
try to come up for information useful for low and mid levels including stuff for those of us that will likely never reach 16+ except as part of a one shot.
try looking at races besides elf and explaining thier strengths. try opening up options from the bestiaries like Tiefling, Ratfolk, or Sylph.
try to go into more detail with explanation besides Elf Rogue/Admixture evoker or bust.
an opinion needs an explanation to back it, try looking into more than just attribute bonuses.
I have to actually agree with the witch falling very short when it comes to the AT. Their spell list simply isn't what it needs to be to really benefit from AT. Magus... well magus can work out well, but it takes a skilled hand to really make it work and isn't something I would recommend for the average player. Bard is the same way -- I mean if you go sandman bard you can come ahead some on sneak attack damage... but generally you are lacking a way to actually use it with spells and you take too many hits elsewhere to really have it work out in your favor.
haha, this thread is getting entertaining.
I cleaned up some posts. Behave.
Looks like your guide was added to the Guide to the Guides.
Oh, nice. Thanks!
I've made some additions and revisions, taking the ninja into account, and still ignoring the vivisectionist. There is also more discussion of the sorcerer and a few other points that were apparently not clear, given some of the comments made here.
Let me repeat that addressing every possible way to do a trickster would take hundreds of pages, so take it as a general guide, and if it gives you an idea or two, great. If it makes you see the class as something other than worthless, I'll be satisfied.
Thanks to all of you!
Hey A highly regarded expert... I want you to check the schools of your blue spells. Over half of them are divination spells. Foresight allows you to have them in your specialist slots (nice) prevents you from being surprised (of paramount importance when scouting) and gives you a free roll that you *know* ahead of time in case you have a poor one in a vital check -- and that is free.
Now I possibly not blue but that seems rather green to me. It covers many of your recommended spells, it covers surprise rounds allowing you a better chance to get that surprise attack rogue talent off, and it gives you a fail safe too, in addition to a small boost to Initiative (small meaning by 20th level almost as much as you get out of improved initiative).
I would contend you are misrepresenting precise shot -- again it doesn't prevent you from missing by "1~2" as you suggest but by "1~4" -- improved precise shot does that again.
Now if you are in a combat where you get to initiate and none of your allies ever get into melee and your line of sight is never fouled by people in your way great those feats are useless to you don't take them. But in any other case if you are relying on rays a lot getting a +1 to hit and damage is a start, and dropping 8 points of AC/penalties with two more feats is great.
Hey A highly regarded expert... I want you to check the schools of your blue spells. Over half of them are divination spells. Foresight allows you to have them in your specialist slots (nice) prevents you from being surprised (of paramount importance when scouting) and gives you a free roll that you *know* ahead of time in case you have a poor one in a vital check -- and that is free.
And yet there is one glaring disadvantage that doesn't help you at 5th level.
Now I possibly not blue but that seems rather green to me. It covers many of your recommended spells, it covers surprise rounds allowing you a better chance to get that surprise attack rogue talent off, and it gives you a fail safe too, in addition to a small boost to Initiative (small meaning by 20th level almost as much as you get out of improved initiative).
The guide is focused on helping characters survive to 20th. The glaring disadvantage is still there.
I would contend you are misrepresenting precise shot -- again it doesn't prevent you from missing by "1~2" as you suggest but by "1~4" -- improved precise shot does that again.
I don't see how it's a better feat than the recommended ones. Sneak blasting is fun, but it's not the end-all be-all of this class, IMHO. I think that aspect of the class is over-hyped, and the only thing some people see. I think blending great spells with great skills is what makes the trickster fun. Ranged sneak blasting is just a bonus, and if you miss, it's no different than missing any attack, except that you are usually a fair distance from your opponent.
Now if you are in a combat where you get to initiate and none of your allies ever get into melee and your line of sight is never fouled by people in your way great those feats are useless to you don't take them. But in any other case if you are relying on rays a lot getting a +1 to hit and damage is a start, and dropping 8 points of AC/penalties with two more feats is great.
Taking 2 or 3 feats to help you hit with ranged touch attacks helps you hit with ranged touch attacks, and I don't doubt that lots of tricksters will go against my advice and do their own thing. That doesn't change my opinion that there are better feats to be had for this class.
The guide has been revised, expanded and improved, IMHO, by discussions like this one. We have different takes on the class, and that's fine. Both our tricksters can do well because we put some thought into them.
I'm just glad I gave people something to see that the class isn't as lousy as some people say. I played a Mage/Thief in AD&D who was laughed at, at first. They weren't laughing at 12th level. :)
Good revisions, I appreciate them. Just a few things I would like to add:
Since you are saying that the bloodlines that give +1 to damage dice are the best (which I agree on), I think that the Elemental (Primal) bloodline is the best for the trickster.
You get +1 to each damage die, and your Lv1 SLA is a ray. Additionally, at lvl 3 you gain resistance from your element. The level 9 Ability sucks for you (since you won't be summoning), but you shouldn't really be reaching it if you do Ninja3/Sorc7/AT10. Additionally, at level 5 Sorcerer you get Scorching Ray as a bonus spell that deals damage corresponding to your element, so you can choose something less commonly resisted.
The second thing I would like to suggest is piercing Spell. For a sorcerer AT, you can either use it in conjunction with Spell Penetration and GSP for a whooping +9 against SR (Which I've used personally, overcoming SR by rolling 2's, then hitting their Flat-footed touch AC on a 2. It's not as convenient for a Wizard AT since you don't really know when you're gonna need it.
On the topic of PBS, Precise Shot and such: I agree that Weapon Focus Ray is a waste. PBS adds 1 extra point to damage if you're within range (And after you get sniper goggles, you probably shouldn't). However, Precise shot is more important, don't forget that there is a -4 penalty for shooting a target in melee. That's FAR more relevant.
You still have nothing on Teleportation school. Int times/day Su teleporting is very handy, and filling your bonus slots w/ conjuration spells is hardly painful...
"Abjuration gives you Shield, and lots of other spells like Mind Blank that you will want easy access to once you can use them."
Except...the mithral buckler exists, so who cares about the shield spell? Mind Blank was super nerfed in PF, now it's just a save bonus, and it's resistance, so after overlapping w/ your cloak it's only providing a +3 save bonus. That's awful. Main draw of abjuration IMO is dispel and energy resistance. You lack the casting chops to do the former well, and the latter...you probably have evasion anyway, and your touch AC is surely pretty good.
Sorc bloodlines: Arcana for the familiar still seems like a great idea. It'll have all your skill ranks.
Arcane Armor Training: Just use Mage Armor. Or if spending the early levels as a rogue mostly, just wear light armor and deal w/ the small % failure on your few spells. Why waste a feat?
Crafting feats: They save you a lot of money, and some campaigns you're stuck with what the DM gives as trasure. Craft Wondrous is certainly useful. Ring of Invis? Just cast invisibility. Not worth the money, IMO.
Point Blank and Precise Shot aren't great feats, but they're still decent to have. WF does suck.
Good revisions, I appreciate them. Just a few things I would like to add:
Since you are saying that the bloodlines that give +1 to damage dice are the best (which I agree on), I think that the Elemental (Primal) bloodline is the best for the trickster.
You get +1 to each damage die, and your Lv1 SLA is a ray. Additionally, at lvl 3 you gain resistance from your element. The level 9 Ability sucks for you (since you won't be summoning), but you shouldn't really be reaching it if you do Ninja3/Sorc7/AT10. Additionally, at level 5 Sorcerer you get Scorching Ray as a bonus spell that deals damage corresponding to your element, so you can choose something less commonly resisted.
The second thing I would like to suggest is piercing Spell. For a sorcerer AT, you can either use it in conjunction with Spell Penetration and GSP for a whooping +9 against SR (Which I've used personally, overcoming SR by rolling 2's, then hitting their Flat-footed touch AC on a 2. It's not as convenient for a Wizard AT since you don't really know when you're gonna need it.
On the topic of PBS, Precise Shot and such: I agree that Weapon Focus Ray is a waste. PBS adds 1 extra point to damage if you're within range (And after you get sniper goggles, you probably shouldn't). However, Precise shot is more important, don't forget that there is a -4 penalty for shooting a target in melee. That's FAR more relevant.
Thanks for your insights. Again, I prefer a trickster who can survive at the level he's at.
That said, you've pointed out an advantageous way to go. I didn't do much about sorcerer ATs, simply because they have so many options, over so many books, that the player should take a good look at all of them, and decide what works best for his party in his campaign.
I still think that PBS and PS (taking 2 feat slots,) give you advantages to ranged attacks only, and the trickster needs other feats that do him much more good in the long run.
If you have the time, cast True Strike from a wand, and blast that suckah, then your friends can jump in in the surprise round. You do good damage, making their jobs easier.
Mindblank was nerfed, but it still doesn't suck. It's a +8(or close to it) to will saves and divinations to gather information on you don't work on you, unless a deity is scrying you.
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My advice comes from personal experience playing a PF Arcane Trickster all the way to level 15.
I dont have the exact build, but it was a pyromaniac Gnome Rogue 3/Elemental (Fire Primal) Sorcerer 7/AT 5
I used my Rogue talent to get a bonus combat Feat, Precise Shot (After having PBS one of my regular feats)
I know I could have gone into AT at level 7, but I waited until level 10 to take advantage of getting Scorching Ray for free, along with Protection from Energy, and Improved Initiative. Yes, I understand that lv10 is kind of late to get that feat, but between the +2 initiative trait and a high dex, it was just adding insult to the injury and pretty much guaranteeing me going before opposing monsters.
I also took Spell Penetration, its greater version, AND Piercing Spell. I laughed in the face of Spell Resistance monsters.
Additionally, I carried a rod of empower spell in my glove of storing. As a free action, I could call upon the rod from my glove, and use it to empower my rays.
When I got quicken spell, I learned the value of quickened true strike for bosses with really high touch AC's, and quickened vanish to get away when things turned sour. My armor was a haramki +5, and I had a wand of shield. My AC was not high at all, but I was usually invisible anyway.
And when scouting, could jack up my stealth check to the high 70's, making me undetectable.
+5 Shadow Haramaki + Size bonus to stealth, + maxed ranks + dex + invisibility makes for a very sneaky rogue. Coupled with my high perception, I was both a scout AND stealth bomber. Also, quickened Empowered Scorching Ray followed by Empowered Scorching Ray all with sneak attack can put a huge dent on monsters.
Honestly I don't see it as a glaring disadvantage -- I've always liked having comprehend languages prepared since you don't always know what language you are going to come across (especially at low level), see invisibility is hardly a bad spell as well.
Part of what I look for in my specialization is if there is a spell of each level that I would like to have prepared each day. I have all my other slots for versatility, my specialization is for something I'm going to like having regularly -- the various detect spells are highly useful (detect secret doors at lower levels can really save your bacon on a bad roll).
Blood Transcription is highly useful for a wizard, as is create treasure map, detect thoughts... see invisibility, locate object (when you are hunting for that one specific piece that you are tasked with finding).
Third level has the ever useful arcane sight, tongues, and clairvoyance/clairaudience, while fourth level has the life saving detect scrying, arcane eye, scrying among many others that could be useful.
Now I fully agree that the real power of the arcane trickster is in the combination of skill and spell -- not needing to burn an invisibility to sneak up on a position is great as is the ability to find traps, disable them and pick pockets from a distance... but what really makes all this come together is information. The more you know ahead of time the better you can plan your skill and spell use, divination provides that and the ability to avoid unpleasant surprises with spells that generally last all day. You only need of each level.
Also you can always find more blasting -- that's easy, you can also find more spell slots -- that's also not too hard, as well as bonus damage. What you can't find as easily is the benefits that foresight brings you: Always acting in the surprise round, having the sitting roll to use when you want, and the bonus to initiative.
For further consideration on the alchemist I would like to point out the following combination:
Vivisectionist, Internal, Mindchemist with preserve organs.
Now you can hold your breath practically forever, you have sneak attack, you have fortification, and you have Cognatogens instead of mutagens to improve your intelligence (and grant natural armor) at key points at the 'cost' of your dump stat. What's more you have a better fortitude save than the rogue as well as getting an extra bonus against both diseases and poisons. Now lets say you keep your intelligence maxed out (or at least within 4 points) -- that means that you'll have between 3 and 7 (between levels 1~20) extracts to supplement your spells.
Extracts such as:
Shield, cure light wounds, disguise self, detect secret doors, see alignment, expeditious retreat, jump, negate aroma, reduce person, touch of the sea, etc.
In my opinion this is one of the greatest strengths of the vivisectionist alchemist over the rogue -- lets say you are 6th level.
Rogue 3/ Wizard 3:
Spell level -- number of spells
0th -- 4
1st -- 5 -- 2 base + 2 int mod + 1 specialist
2nd -- 3(max of 4) -- 1 base + 1~2 int mod + 1 specialist
+ Evasion
Now that's alright, you are tight but you can survive. Lets consider the vivisectionist alternative though:
Vivisectionist 3/ Wizard 3:
Spell level -- number of spells/extracts
0th -- 4
1st -- 5 spells 5 extracts
2nd -- 3(max of 4)
+ fortification(light)+mutagen(or cognatogen)+better fortitude+a general lack of need to breath+ extra +2 against disease and poisons
Those five extracts can give you all the things you want as back up (in which case sure ditch divination as a wizard as fast as you can!): You got your shield, a back up cure light wounds, touch of the sea, negate aroma (to foil tracking or scent in general), and something else of your choice in addition to your normal spells.
It expands your spell slots considerably and therefore your options, both in and out of combat.
What's more you also get brew potions for free -- now granted it's not super glamorous but in your down time you have the free option of saving money by crafting your party's own cure potions and potions of mage armor to save yourself the feat you were going to spend on arcane armor training (since it's going to do about as good as what you were getting out of the chain shirt, or even +1 studded leather armor).
And while you can't use poisons with my suggestion, you do get double your intelligence bonus on knowledge checks... which means you can spread your skill points a bit further too. All this is in addition to the fact that you basically don't need UMD any more too pushing your skill ranks even further.
That feat you save on arcane armor training could go to getting fortification(moderate) as well (or a third arm -- whatever floats your boat/tickles your pickle).
Now I'm not trying to say the rogue doesn't offer anything -- he does get evasion earlier and without equipment. But the vivisectionist offers better saves, better spell economy, and in my opinion more options overall.
***************
Another spell of note to me is echolocation. This spell is a 4th level transmutation spell that gives you blindsight 40'. Because it is transmutation mind blank has no effect on it, and because it is blindsight you can sneak attack with it despite just about any conditions going on around you. It's a 10 min/level spell so it has good duration as well.
Like I said in the opening paragraph of the guide, and repeat here, players have a much better idea of what they can do in their games than I do.
Vivisectionist is a good choice, if your game allows it. I've yet to see anyone play an alchemist of any kind in my games. They're prohibited in some, along with summoners and gunslingers.
Remember that a vivisectionist needs time to prepare extracts, and scouts rarely have time for that when time is an issue.
As useful as extracts, a third arm, or other features of the class seem to be, they're not all that great for a character who has arcane spells and needs to keep moving or cast a powerful spell right now that no extract can duplicate. I also think that 3 levels of the class does less than you presume it does, once you enter a PrC.
There's no way to incorporate all the possible ways one can be an arcane trickster, or what can be done with it. The guide is just a guide, just my opinion, and I don't think making it a comprehensive overview of every possible option for a multiclassed PrC is possible. It's just my opinion, after all, and I didn't make a dime writing it.
I remain convinced that the best trickster in a typical party has levels in a truly sneaky class and is either a sorcerer or wizard. If you want to play 3 levels of some class I don't address, have at it. I'm not the boss of you. Talk to your GM.
Vivisectionist need less time than wizards need to prepare spells, and what is more they can prepare them ahead just like a wizard can too.
And extra arms are incredible useful -- you can hold an extra wand, an extra scroll, or so on.
How does vivisectionist do less after you enter the prestige class? Your save stay the same, your bonuses stay the same, you still can use spell trigger items without UMD, you still have the fortification, and you still have the extract to help extend your abilities. The only things you stand to lose is evasion... which is only helpful in a very specific situation -- when you are hit with an AOE that allows a reflex save for half, and 12 skill points... which you are making up with extra bonuses to skills.
Also the vivisectionist can be stealthy without any problems -- indeed easier since he can avoid scent all together, and has more abilities and resources to push into it.
To use the cop out of, "Well it might not be allowed" is... pretty lazy. I mean wizard and sorcerer may not be allowed -- arcane trickster might now be allowed, but you still went into detail on those. Anything might not be allowed. But the alchemist is part of the 'core hardbacks' -- it's not like it's from the back of dragon magazine or something.
If I was to do the write up for the vivisectionist, would you be interested in adding it in then? If it saves you some work and helps make the guide more complete I'm willing to do it.
Play what you like. It's a corner class, and I didn't address it. It's not sneaky enough to do the role I promote. If you think I'm lazy, write your own 30+ page guide for no pay and prove me wrong.
I'll be happy to insult you and play "what if?"
Play what you like. It's a corner class, and I didn't address it. It's not sneaky enough to do the role I promote. If you think I'm lazy, write your own 30+ page guide for no pay and prove me wrong.
I'll be happy to insult you and play "what if?"
I thought we were over the insults -- the guide isn't bad, and I never claimed otherwise. I am trying to help make it better, that is what you asked for remember?
I'm willing to do this by writing and adding on to your guide, and offered to do so under the same terms you've done what you've started with already, so the attitude seems a bit much.
Do whatever you like. There are multiple guides under some headings in the guide to the guides. I have no claim to it. Give us a vivisectionist AT guide. Some people will like it, I'm sure. LazarX won't, but that's his thing.
Man, this is a great guide. Kudos! I've always had a soft spot for this class, and its nice to see them given justice. I'd never considered an assassin dip before. Slightly OT but is the Ability Focus feat legal on a PC any more? It might be a nice boost to an assassin dip.
I'm actually gonna follow up and ask why Magus is a poor choice for AT?
The magi (and other 3/4 casting classes) don't get full casting because they get other toys as they level that work very well for them. Taking 2 or 3 levels of a roguish class and cancelling all the benefits that come with the magus class for 10 levels gives you a character who's weaker in hp and BAB, gets some sneak attack, and will never see spells higher than 6th level.
What I say about the bard applies to the magus and summoner, too. Look at the spells he gets at 17th level, then compare them to what a sor/wiz gets. I don't see any advantage in a magus diluting his level-based powers for lower BAB and fewer spells, just to get 7d6 sneak attack. It's just not all that awesome for him. A straight magus of the same level will clean his clock.
Part of what makes the trickster good is access to all those "god" spells a magus will never have, particularly the high level ones that make him nearly impossible to catch.
It's sort of like the difference between a magus and an EK. The magus mixes spells with combat, while the EK is a little less fighter and a lot more mage, but can't combine both at the same time like a magus can. They look similar, but work differently.
One last thought that isn't really on-topic: The AT can't face off against a rogue of his level and win by just acting like a rogue. He can't beat a mage of his level by trying to match him with magic. He can only beat either one of them by using both his skills and his spells. If he forgets to do that, he's not being a trickster. He's being either a rogue or a mage.
Slightly OT but is the Ability Focus feat legal on a PC any more? It might be a nice boost to an assassin dip.
Yes, but even w/ Ability Focus, the DC is going to be poor with only 1 level into the class...
You're welcome to your opinion. Perhaps a little rereading will make my perception of the trickster's role a little clearer. I still agree with myself. XD
EDIT: That sounds snarkier than I meant it. I just think the magus is fine as a single class, and doesn't gain much by doing anything else.
I suspect that it's more of a matter that the Magus simply benefits less than the Wizard or Sorcerer. The Arcane Trickster brings combat viability to the latter two classes, but the Magus already has more of that than the bump the AT gives to the other two arcanist types.
This is the crux of it. An optimal trickster uses skill synergy with an impressive list of spells to do his thing. Given his role (which I see as a magical rogue), skills and lots of magic are what make him work best. The halting of the magus's level-granted improvements is bad enough for him, but his weaker 3/4 spell list is an even bigger limit.
Sor/wiz tricksters can cast 8 or 9th level spells at their peak, use metamagic to keep lower level blasts viable, using sneak attack more often than not for extra punch, and use those high level slots to do astounding things in conjunction with their great skills.
The magus has all the blasty spells, but he's lacking in what the sor/wiz trickster does best. Slightly more BAB isn't what the trickster cares about. At 15+ levels, melee is only for taking out easy targets to save spells. He can flank or just do it invisibly, at a much higher bonus than a wizard can typically do, for a lot more damage.
He likes his magic. That's what gets him through the day. And walls. And the planes. And...
I removed a post and the replies to it. Don't do that.
I removed some older posts. Criticism should be constructive.
Finally done. 48 pages, if I counted right. That's all I'm going to do. An exhaustive guide from a guy who's actually been there and done that, without the cheese. It should be enough to get you started for anyone interested in actually playing the class.
If you see any typos or errors, please let me know.
RAW, a Witch can't be an Arcane Trickster because they don't have Mage Hand on their cantrip spell list.If you take the trait Two World Magic you can get Mage Hand...
If your game allows it, yes, you could. You'd still have the problem of being a witch, rather than a casting class that can really do everything a trickster should be able to do.
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If your game allows it, yes, you could. You'd still have the problem of being a witch, rather than a casting class that can really do everything a trickster should be able to do.RAW, a Witch can't be an Arcane Trickster because they don't have Mage Hand on their cantrip spell list.If you take the trait Two World Magic you can get Mage Hand...
Yeah, as I said earlier I'm playing a character who is working her way up to a Rogue/Witch Arcane Trickster.
There are some things that look like they're going to be really awesome. But I'm not there yet, so it's all still theoretical. What I can say is that if you try to do it with a standard Witch build that's heavy on the usual Hexes and debuffs that you'll end up very disappointed.
The best advice is your overall advice: don't think of this as a caster, think of it as an enhanced Rogue. What a Witch brings to the table is a really nice bag of situational tricks. The Prehensile Hair Hex alone is amazing. Think: Sneak Attack touch spells at reach adding your Int modifier to damage. (In fact, you could probably make a very interesting Trickster with a White-Haired Witch.) But you don't dare take any Hexes with DCs because you won't get enough Witch levels to make your DCs reasonable.
It's a build that can go off the rails very easily, so I wouldn't recommend it. But the potential is there.
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Wanted to pop back in and tell you that I absolutely love this guide, and the direction you took with it, staying true to what the class is instead of reccomending something totally unrecognisable. I've statted up a trickster of my own (which I was masochistic enough to attempt from level 1) and really re-evaluated the class.
I'd take a look at the non-blasting bloodlines for tricksters as well. If the trickster can afford a decent casting stat, I find the bloodline arcana for the fey bloodline gives her a great repitoire of disabling spells. Daze, Confusion, Hold Person, Sleep, Suggestion... More or less every enchantment spell that doesn't begin with "charm" has a +2 to DC. Even if you can't find room for spell focus it gives the trickster a great boost to his effectiveness in the early levels.
Great work, thanks a lot and hoping to see more from you!
I havent read the guide yet, but reading expert's posts i can guess its not mentioned in there, so ill throw it out.
If one was togo rogue 2(knifemaster),vivisectionist 1,wizard 3(whichever)/AT X ud get the best of both.. Evasion, d8 sneak dice with daggers, mutagen, and an extract.. base saves bf prc would be 4/6/4 and all kinds of other goodies, skills etc etc..
Just realized you wouldnt reach +6 bab till 14th level using that model... lame.
Wanted to pop back in and tell you that I absolutely love this guide, and the direction you took with it, staying true to what the class is instead of reccomending something totally unrecognisable. I've statted up a trickster of my own (which I was masochistic enough to attempt from level 1) and really re-evaluated the class.
I'd take a look at the non-blasting bloodlines for tricksters as well. If the trickster can afford a decent casting stat, I find the bloodline arcana for the fey bloodline gives her a great repitoire of disabling spells. Daze, Confusion, Hold Person, Sleep, Suggestion... More or less every enchantment spell that doesn't begin with "charm" has a +2 to DC. Even if you can't find room for spell focus it gives the trickster a great boost to his effectiveness in the early levels.
Great work, thanks a lot and hoping to see more from you!
Thanks for the kind words.
There are certainly a number of options I pretty much panned. With the magical knack trait, you're only 1 CL behind a regular caster of your level, so enchantments, etc., can work pretty well, especially if you build for it. With all the books coming out, and the unending pipeline of options we'll continue to see, the trickster gets better, too. YOUR trickster, in YOUR game, not just the smart, skilled, sneaky-blasty one I favor.
I build characters with an eye toward what the party can and can't do well. You need people who can make skill checks, and you need people who can throw down when it's time for that, with spell or sword (or either, in the case of the trickster).
Casting disabling spells can work fine, but it depends on what your party is good at. I say you should be blasty, since you're naturally good at it, and your other casters can do the control/buffing/debuffing better than a typical trickster can.
If you don't have a full caster in the party, your role is significantly different from the trickster I talk about. Mine's got other casters who are better at control magic than he is.
A trickster can be useful in any party, but he really shines as the rogue substitute with MacGyver spells on tap. Sneak blasting lets him do significant harm to enemies without getting too close. Softening up targets is a fine thing. Killing them outright is also appreciated. LOL!
I'm playing in a game with a GM who's new to Pathfinder, so he's restricting us to the CRB only. Because of his campaign setting (among other things, the major power has outlawed arcane magic), an elf Arcane Trickster works REALLY well as a character. This campaign also emphasizes RP over combat(60-40), if that matters.
So, what choices for a rogue/wizard AT are best from the CRB? I can't take admixture specialization, and no Magical Knack trait, so evocation looks like it's out. Divination's spider-sense and the rogue talent surprise attack seem like a good combo, but the bonus spell choices are kind of lacking.
On the other hand, transmutation could be good. My stats came out to 10 16 11 19 8 9, so putting that +1 into CON would be great. I'd get a ranged touch attack that did 1d4+1 and could sneak, plus the spell list seems pretty good. I guess I'd just take Fast Stealth or Trap Spotter for my rouge talent.
Any suggestions?
Hmm. If arcane casters are regularly put to death or something, I'd go with divination. You can discreetly cast divination spells on yourself without other people knowing it. Transmutation is a great school, but with most of those spells, it's pretty obvious someone's using magic.
I guess it's a matter of how illegal arcane magic is. lol! Not getting traits hurts, but it's not unplayable. Surprise Attack is always the talent I'd take.
Either school could work. If there's a lot of RP, you'd get a lot of use out of spells like detect thoughts and the like.
Point taken about the flashiness. It probably won't be a problem later in the campaign, but that's completely baseless speculation on my part. Oh, and wizards are only exiled, not killed. The initial order was long enough ago that you could get away with doing magic very quietly.
Alright, divination seems like a good choice. Being able to have my weapon out and moving before anything's even jumped out sounds like fun. Also responding to "Boo!" with "Acid in the face!" Thanks.
Updated with more info and pictures. If you haven't read it in a while, it's a lot bigger now.