Beginner Question: Hit dice vs level

[ValkyrieStorm]

Yesterday, for the first time, I understood the sentence that I often hear my GM utter "A 9 hit die monster ...." I had never asked the term "# hit die" to be explained because I usually have 100 other more immediate personal things to understand and understanding the fine points of the monster I encountered is low on the priority list. Anyway, I have come to understand the "# hit die monster" is roughly equivalent to "# level monster". For example, I am an 8th level cleric which means I am a 8 hit die character.

Question: Does number of hit die equal character level? If yes, why have two terms?

[Mort the Cleverly Named]

Hit Dice are equal to character level for normal player characters. However, monsters (or players playing monsters) can have different totals.

They are different for a variety of reasons. They allow for enemies with more hitpoints, while maintaining a normal level of offensive ability. They allow stronger monsters to avoid devastating HD based effects the players might throw at them. Last but not least, they are useful for creating opponents that are still a threat, despite having fewer complicated abilities than a player character of equal level.

To answer your question, yes, your level 8 cleric is a 8 HD monster. However, you are substantially more powerful than most 8 HD monsters, making you a CR (challenge rating) 7 enemy, while most 8 HD monsters will be of lower CRs (CR 7s are often 9 or 10 HD). Honestly though, this is GM material. As a player, it is behind-the-scenes mechanics that aren't particularly important for the direct enjoyment of the game. Unless you want to thoroughly optimize, of course.

[Jiggy]

ValkyrieStorm wrote:

Question: Does number of hit die equal character level? If yes, why have two terms?

In the case of an ordinary PC or humanoid NPC, they're more or less the same thing. Each class level a creature possesses gives it a hit die.

However, many creatures (most non-humanoids, really) have racial hit dice. That "9 hit dice monster" probably didn't have any levels at all.

As a result, a creature could potentially have a different number of levels and hit dice. For instance, a gargoyle has 5 HD, but no levels. If your GM decided to have a special gargoyle NPC (which would be AWESOME), then he might give it some, say, rogue levels. A gargoyle with 3 levels of rogue would only be 3rd level, but would have 8 hit dice.

Make sense?

[meabolex]

Quote:

Question: Does number of hit die equal character level? If yes, why have two terms?

The official (confusing) definition is:

PRD wrote:

Hit Dice (HD): Hit Dice represent a creature's general level of power and skill. As a creature gains levels, it gains additional Hit Dice. Monsters, on the other hand, gain racial Hit Dice, which represent the monster's general prowess and ability. Hit Dice are represented by the number the creature possesses followed by a type of die, such as “3d8.” This value is used to determine a creature's total hit points. In this example, the creature has 3 Hit Dice. When rolling for this creature's hit points, you would roll a d8 three times and add the results together, along with other modifiers.

Gaining a character level means gaining a hit die. Some monsters, as they get bigger over time generally, gain hit dice as well. These are known as racial hit dice. A dragon is a good example of a creature with racial hit dice -- as the dragon gets bigger, she gains more racial hit dice. A creature can have both kinds. . . like a gnoll fighter. For spells and effects that look at hit dice (say, color spray), both kinds of hit dice are added together.

The reason there's two terms (character level and hit dice) is that the hit dice gained from character levels aren't racial hit dice. . . but they are both hit dice.

[ValkyrieStorm]

Thank you both Mort the Cleverly Names, Jiggy, and meabolex. Both explanations clarified things a bit. I now have a basic understanding of the difference and will leave it at that. Even though the hungry learner is wanting to know more about how a 3rd level gargoyle can have 8 hit dice I will ... not go there yet. One of the things that I'm having to learn is to prioritize what I need to know. I don't always know what is important and what isn't. Something I think is unimportant to me at this stage has in the past turned out to be important.

[tonyz]

Once upon a time.a monster with 3 HD was an even foe for 3rd level characters. 3.0 and the CR system rather changed that, There are still some vestiges of it surviving in things like the plant binding spells or various spells that affect a certain number/level of HD...

[Adamantine Dragon]

As tonyz says, there was once a strong correlation between hit dice and character level. That correlation has become exceedingly blurry, but it still is not a bad first approximation of how dangerous a particular monster is.

The use of "Challenge Rating" ("CR") has officially replaced that correlation, but in reality CRs need to be taken with a grain of salt as well. A lot of this you just have to learn as you play.

[Deadmanwalking]

ValkyrieStorm wrote:

Thank you both Mort the Cleverly Names, Jiggy, and meabolex. Both explanations clarified things a bit. I now have a basic understanding of the difference and will leave it at that. Even though the hungry learner is wanting to know more about how a 3rd level gargoyle can have 8 hit dice I will ... not go there yet.

Well see, a Gargoyle has 5 Hit Dice without any Class at all. It's effectively got 5 'levels' of Gargoyle, but that's a really weird and silly thing to call it, because that's just what it gets for being a Gargoyle, not anything it worke for or trained in. It's just what Gargoyles get for being a tougher monster than most people are. So it's a 5 Hit Die creature.

Then that Gargoyle takes three levels of Rogue, so it's effectively a Gargoyle 5/Rogue 3...but again, talking about 'Gargoyle' as a class would be weird (and redundant, since basically all Gargoyles have the same number of 'levels' in it), so it's an 8 Hit Die Gargoyle Rogue 3.

[Castarr4]

Yeah. There's three terms here that are important, and they all relate to each other. Level, hit dice, and CR.

A PC, with PC stats and PC wealth (and a race defined by class levels), has the same level, hit dice, and CR. Therefore, a level 5 rogue has 5 hit dice and is CR 5.

A monster with no NPC or PC class levels will not actually have a level, but still has HD, and a CR based on both the HD and other abilities they may possess. For instance, a monster that can cast a large number of spell-like abilities will have a higher CR than HD, but a melee monster will usually have a higher HD than CR.

Adding levels to a monster to advance it can either be done by adding more "monster HD." and scaling it directly, or by adding NPC or PC class levels. That gets complicated.

Basically, HD tells you that the monster is going to have roughly 6*HD hit points, and its CR will be probably its HD plus or minus 50%, depending on what sort of abilities is possesses.

Consider that adding a template to a monster tends not not give it more HD or levels, but does raise its CR because it has gained more abilities and/or is extra strong for its type.

[Paul Zagieboylo]

If you want to see an official worked example, the free module Master of the Fallen Fortress ends with a monster with class levels, specifically a troglodyte druid 3. He has 5 hit dice: two racial d8 hit dice for being a troglodyte, and three character level hit dice (also d8s in this case) for being a 3rd level druid. So whenever you need to figure out his "character level" or "caster level" (for his spells), the answer is 3, because he's a 3rd level druid. But if you need to know his "hit dice", the answer is 5, because it counts his racial hit dice as well (so a sleep spell won't work on him, because it only affects creatures of 4 hit dice or below). But basically you can treat racial hit dice as though they were "levels" in the creature's type. The benefits of racial hit dice are explained in the Creature Types appendix in the Bestiary; basically they provide hit points, Base Attack Bonus, saving throws, feats, and skill ranks just as "real" class levels would, but mostly have no other benefits, which is why they aren't as good as class levels.

Confounding this issue is the fact that many creatures do not normally have any racial hit dice, including humans and all the other standard PC races, but also including orcs, goblins, bugbears, and many other monstrous races. These creatures are listed in the Bestiary as always having one class level, usually warrior, but if you're writing adventures you are free to give them whatever class levels you think they should have.

[ValkyrieStorm]

Thanks everyone for all the info. Much of it is definitely 'above my pay grade' at this point but interesting.