I know everybody is doing it these days - but I figure that is not a reason not to get involved. On tenletter I've posted my monk remake. The post is quite long (sorry!) but it offers a really big new look at the monk.
To preview the design principles:
- bring something new to the table: the monk’s “flurry” is not special, other than its limitations and that it is for “free”. Anybody can go and take two-weapon fighting feats.
- create options: the monk class as defined by Paizo’s Pathfinder is very diverse and feature rich – but it is also a static richness of features that doesn’t change from monk to monk (other than by the application of archetypes)
- endorse stereotypes: something that Paizo did right for several classes is the ability to re-create iconic characters or abilities by judicial application of character options. A ninja that creates shadow clones of himself? Check. A witch that has animated hair or a sleep-inducing poisoned apple? Check. These are options not imposed onto the class, but are exposed to the class. This is a great thing.
The "Flurry" is entirely re-designed; and the remade monk now gains "insights" (the equivalent to rogue talents, rage powers, discoveries, and so forth).
And since I missed the link on the initial post: here is the remake
A few words to the redesign: the new flurry mechanic is built around the monk of the four wind archetype (APG); the purpose is to strengthen the strengths of a monk, maneuverability with exotic action. If you think a high-level monk, then you should be able to imagine this:
The monk round-house kicks a bunch of minions (great cleave), jumps (move) to the boss character and delivers a powerful and debilitating attack (vital strike with stunning fist), then rushes (move) to beleaguered allies and in one fell swoop trips all the goons threatening the caster (great cleave, using trip on attacks). A level 15 monk in my version can do all that in one turn (his flurry gives 4 (limited) standard actions and 1 move action).
Interesting. I liked the concept of the Flurry feature, but there's a really huge problem with it when you add in fast movement, and that is that the monk can move far faster than anyone else on the battlefield: she can move (standard action), then attack (standard action, so it can include Vital Strike, for example), then move (move action). Rinse and repeat, and he can always attack without a foe getting in a counter-attack unless they have a readied action.
Another thing I noticed is that this monk suffers the perennial monk problem of not being able to hit anything. He's still at 3/4 BAB, and he still has no recourse but the appalling amulet of mighty fists for his enhancement of his unarmed strike.
I really LOVED the insights, I think they are the best feature of this monk BY FAR.
Noticed something: Fast Movement, Faster Movement, and Lesser Meditation of Beasts all give enhancement bonuses to movement. While Faster Movement does say "its effects stack", this usually means that it stacks with itself. It seems that, as written, none of these movement enhancers will stack with each other, so the other two insights seems to not be so useful unless Fast Movement is disabled.
Ah thanks, I'll try to find words that make it work as intended.
Interesting. I liked the concept of the Flurry feature, but there's a really huge problem with it when you add in fast movement, and that is that the monk can move far faster than anyone else on the battlefield: she can move (standard action), then attack (standard action, so it can include Vital Strike, for example), then move (move action). Rinse and repeat, and he can always attack without a foe getting in a counter-attack unless they have a readied action.
Actually I consider that a feature of this monk - it's not actually different from having Spring Attack (other than that the monk gets to use a standard action, hence Cleave or Vital Strike) rather than just a plain attack.
Keep in mind that the *total* movement of the monk cannot exceed twice his speed. So sure, he can move in 30 ft, hit, and 30 ft back at level 10. But so can a level 4 fighter that has haste cast on him.
Another thing I noticed is that this monk suffers the perennial monk problem of not being able to hit anything. He's still at 3/4 BAB, and he still has no recourse but the appalling amulet of mighty fists for his enhancement of his unarmed strike.
The insights go a long way to alleviate that, I think. "Monk Combat Training" can add +4 to hit and damage over 20 levels. Then some of the insights straight-up give full-base-attack (such as the Drunken insights, and the Meditation of Fists).
I've added an addendum to the post at the bottom where I show that the expected DPR of a particular monk build using the remake reaches 63. That is not the best build, just a rock solid example I put together using the obvious culprits, and I think 63 DPR sets its credentials as a reliable damage dealer. Note also that the 63 DPR is created with an attack bonus of +19. That is pretty impressive, even the dedicated minmax Fighter builds usually only reach around 22 at level 10.
I suspect that given time the creative masterminds that are monk players will tickle out a significant bonus or two - and at level 12 Improved Vital Strike pushes the DPR up another 50% for Vital Strike builds; and at level 15 the extra flurry action grants another 33% up. That is some serious damage potential.
I really LOVED the insights, I think they are the best feature of this monk BY FAR.
:D - I like them the most as well.
edit: Forgot my usual opening sentence: While praise is great, criticism is useful. Do not take it personally, as my interest is solely in helping you make the best thing possible.
The flurry is interesting. There was a lot of talk during the beta / alpha of making flurry of blows just a standard action, IIRC. This is similar enough, and I'm not as worried about the thing dabbler brought up. I'm worried about multiple vital strikes.
With the loss of the flurry = full BAB bit (without selecting an insight!), they will face the same problems as rogues do with hits, although rogues are keyed to deal big damage *if* they hit, not necessarily when.
A few nitpicks about the Insights. By and large, I enjoy them.
Meditation of Beasts: This is stepping far too much on the druid, IMO. I'd make it Aspect of the Beast.
Meditation of Presence should probably require a swift or move action. Aura abilities have all sorts of issues, especially ones that apply shaken. (Monk: "My Lord-King, it is an honor to meet you" <monk goes to shake hand of King> King: "OH GOD I AM SO AFRAID RIGHT NOW!") Requiring an action to be expended goes a long way to making this better, as Shaken is really quite nasty. Your casters will love you if you don't have to do a damn thing to increase their DCs by 2. Great call on not tying it to intimidation though. Not only does it save a skill tax (the lesser of my concerns, really), but Intimidation is silly-stupid easy to boost to "yea, you're afraid" levels.
Meditation of Transcendence: All bonuses need to be Insight. I am highly, highly iffy on Meditation of Transcendence. Stat-consolidation is extremely powerful, far more than people give it credit for being, especially for a class that gains so much from Wisdom. The increasing damage dice and fact that you are shoe-horned into Vital Strike more than makes up for the fact that it doesn't add damage to Wisdom at all times (which would just be stupid overpowered). It also causes the issue of organically leveled monks will have wasted stats, but those starting at or above level 6 will somehow always have 10 Strength. I like where you're going with this one, but strongly dislike the execution.
I see where you're going with vow of poverty, and it's very interesting, but the execution needs a lot of work done. The only time that "1,000 gp" count as "poverty" is in the Elemental Plane of Lots Of Gold And Gems.
Your example DPR is the same as a two-handed fighter. You'll need to do something to fix this, as the design space of the monk is not meant to be a great damage dealer, where-as the fighter is. If you're matching the DPR of one of the strongest types of fighters, there's something wrong. The issue lies most likely with deadly versatility. I'd drop that.
Meditation of Fire, Greater: Clever, and I mostly like it. The issue, of course, is at-will Scorching Ray. There should be some limitation on number of rounds per day that you can use this (not uses per day!)
Suggestions: Change the flurry to only allow Max_Number_Of_Flurries - 1 Vital Strikes in a round. The class basically shoe-horns you into that feat line, much like the magus shoe-horns you into a high-crit range build. Allow them to spend a ki point to ignore this restriction.
Of all the monk revisions I've seen, I have liked this one by far the most. With a few fixes (deadly versatility being changed, and a limit on vital strikes), I think it'll fill the same design space as the Paizo monk (great defenses, great mobility, OK damage) but be more interesting. I like where you're going with it quite a bit, but the execution needs some tweaking, and the damage capabilities lowered a smidgen.
Well done.
Keep in mind that the *total* movement of the monk cannot exceed twice his speed. So sure, he can move in 30 ft, hit, and 30 ft back at level 10. But so can a level 4 fighter that has haste cast on him.
Actually, the fighter can't do that. The fighter can move 60 and hit someone, or hit someone and move 60 feet. But he can't move, hit, and move again without some investment.
Another thing I noticed is that this monk suffers the perennial monk problem of not being able to hit anything. He's still at 3/4 BAB, and he still has no recourse but the appalling amulet of mighty fists for his enhancement of his unarmed strike.
I just realized, I should add: the traditional "flurry of misses" actually stems from the fact that the core flurry has so many low iterative attacks. The re-made monk's flurry doesn't have lower iterative attacks, only the "full" 3/4 base attack. And that is enough to hit. In the sample on the blog post each attack has an 80% chance to hit a CR 10 foe at level 10. That is plenty good enough (and not even optimized to it's potential limit).
Actually, the fighter can't do that. The fighter can move 60 and hit someone, or hit someone and move 60 feet. But he can't move, hit, and move again without some investment.
Keep in mind that the *total* movement of the monk cannot exceed twice his speed. So sure, he can move in 30 ft, hit, and 30 ft back at level 10. But so can a level 4 fighter that has haste cast on him.
I meant a fighter with Spring Attack.
I like it, Lorekeeper. I will definately be keeping on eye on this.
Master Arminas
At level 10, your monk should be able to move 60 ft both ways and gets two attacks in-between. It does seem there to be quite a bit of potential there.
Ah yes. You are correct. I still chalk it up as a new class feature for the monk: he can do things that other classes cannot (at least not easily). In exchange the monk cannot smite, doesn't have an animal companion, doesn't rage, nor sneak attack, etc. ...unlike the old flurry. Anybody with some feats and stats could "flurry".
Interesting. I liked the concept of the Flurry feature, but there's a really huge problem with it when you add in fast movement, and that is that the monk can move far faster than anyone else on the battlefield: she can move (standard action), then attack (standard action, so it can include Vital Strike, for example), then move (move action). Rinse and repeat, and he can always attack without a foe getting in a counter-attack unless they have a readied action.Actually I consider that a feature of this monk - it's not actually different from having Spring Attack (other than that the monk gets to use a standard action, hence Cleave or Vital Strike) rather than just a plain attack.
Keep in mind that the *total* movement of the monk cannot exceed twice his speed. So sure, he can move in 30 ft, hit, and 30 ft back at level 10. But so can a level 4 fighter that has haste cast on him.
Keep in mind that they made Spring Attack deliberately such that Vital Strike could not be used with it for a reason. The monk could at 10th level move 60', Vital Strike, and move another 60' afterwards, all within the limits you set out (no more than twice their speed). With Spring Attack, that would be limited to 60' total, and no Vital Strike. Not very similar at all.
The fighter with haste could be limited to 50' movement (and any other heavily armoured class would certainly be), so he can't attack the monk before they attack or afterwards if there is any terrain that prevents a straight line movement.
hmmm - I agree that it is better than a plain Spring Attack, but it isn't over the top better. Along those lines, a barbarian with the bestial leaper rage power (Ultimate Combat) also gets to move 35ft, Vital strike and continue moving 35ft (assuming 40 base speed and haste) at level 6.
The quickling (bestiary 2) has Spring Attack along with 120 ft speed; so also manages to duplicate the monk's ability more-or-less.
Still... perhaps the Flurry remake should be limited to a single speed rather than double speed. Raise hands in favor?
hmmm - I agree that it is better than a plain Spring Attack, but it isn't over the top better. Along those lines, a barbarian with the bestial leaper rage power (Ultimate Combat) also gets to move 35ft, Vital strike and continue moving 35ft (assuming 40 base speed and haste) at level 6.
Buff spells cannot always be assumed, and 35' is within charge range for a heavily armoured character anyway.
The quickling (bestiary 2) has Spring Attack along with 120 ft speed; so also manages to duplicate the monk's ability more-or-less.
...without the Vital Strike, remember.
Still... perhaps the Flurry remake should be limited to a single speed rather than double speed. Raise hands in favor?
Which makes no sense as anyone can double-move, so why not the monk with his flurry?
What you have struck, my friend, is a problem with action economy. You have given the monk way more to spend than anyone else, and it shows. However...what does the monk need enhanced speed for if he can Flurry for extra movement? He doesn't need both. So scrap the bonus speed, and let the monk move normally - with the Flurry ability they get extra actions and can move faster that way.
A monk could still double-move. Just not while flurrying. A monk can also still charge or full-round attack. He simply isn't using his flurry class ability in those situations; and that is fine.
It is best to think of a Flurry as a special type of full-round action that grants a single move action and several standard actions - and the standard actions cannot be used to move more than your speed (or in the original double your speed). That is mechanically not drastically different from the special type of full-round action that is Spring Attack that lets you move, attack and move - but cannot be used to move more than your speed.
I think a single-speed total move while flurrying solves this better than removing Fast Movement altogether. At level 15 (4 standard actions, and a move), the monk could move 30ft, Vital Strike, move 20ft, Great Cleave, move back 30ft. That is plenty of movement, expected of a high-level monk and acceptable - a doule-move speed would be overkill in such a situation and stretches the suspension of disbelief a bit too much. The more I think about it, the more I'm satisfied that a single-speed Flurry is the right thing.
If I were to remove his fast-movement but allow flurry-based movement (with no upper limit) then a level 1 monk could move 90ft in a round. That is pretty crazy. If I do put in an upper limit, then that limit would never change or grow, which also feels a bit anathema to me. If I put in an artificially growing limit, then it wouldn't affect the monk for other types of actions (such as charges for example). If I do implement it in such a way that everything grows in a sensible way, then I really just end up back with Fast Movement.
A quick note of changes:
Revision 1.01: Flurry movement is now limited to a single speed of movement; previously it allowed for movement up to double the monk's speed. Additionally I added Dodging Monk and Swift Target insights (that grant Dodge and Mobility feats respectively). Lastly, the Total Defense action may only be used once a round when flurrying.
If any character takes a 1 level dip in Monk, they suddenly become 100% more powerful. 1 more standard action, in general, is HUGE.
:( It doesn't work. Every powergamer build built henceforth would have 1 level in the New Monk. You need another idea.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the only other class that can so easily break the action economy (Magus) only gets their talents once every 3 levels. That's probably the way to go, as already this level 10 monk mostly marginalizes a two-handed fighter unless he's hasted.
If any character takes a 1 level dip in Monk, they suddenly become 100% more powerful. 1 more standard action, in general, is HUGE.
:( It doesn't work. Every powergamer build built henceforth would have 1 level in the New Monk. You need another idea.
Yea, that's very true. One level of this means you'll be getting two attacks at full BAB -1 (for a full BAB class), as opposed to one at full, and at -5. This holds until level 11, unless you rely on buffs (which you really shouldn't when designing)
Like it was pointed out, any character that wears armor can't dip for flurry, and any character that doesn't wear armor, is probably a spell caster, and can't cast spells in a flurry. Level dipping Monk, I think, would be largely useless for most classes.
If any character takes a 1 level dip in Monk, they suddenly become 100% more powerful. 1 more standard action, in general, is HUGE.
:( It doesn't work. Every powergamer build built henceforth would have 1 level in the New Monk. You need another idea.
I don't agree (yet). Depending on your fighting style, getting Two-Weapon Fighting is a more useful purchase for an extra attack. And Flurry only applies to characters that wear no armor.
Yes, druids and wizards can get by using their spells and high Wisdom to benefit from the Flurry. But a druid that focuses on combat would rather use his many natural attacks when shaping.
A cleric... well I guess a cleric could risk it if he's a combat cleric. Though he cannot use the Flurry to drink potions, cast spells, use supernatural domain abilities, etc - so for the same net penalty, if he takes Two Weapon Fighting he gets about the same benefit (increased base attack bonus and a -2 for TWF - vs - loss of base attack bonus of 1 but no penalty when using two standard actions). However, when TWF the cleric can still wear armor and shield - which are pretty easy ways of getting AC.
How many combat clerics do you know that want to rely on their 16 Wisdom and 14 Dexterity to have 15 AC. When they could wield breastplate and shield to have 20 AC?
...
But, I see the point of the argument: what if the base flurry is limited to unarmed strikes and monk weapons - and a level 4 insight can unlock flurry use for any weapon?
Opinions?
Hi, I'm a Cleric/Druid with a high Wis. I'd love extra attacks at highest BAB after I'm buffed.
A druid (with natural attacks) already gets his attacks at highest base attack bonus. Usually he'll have more natural attacks than the flurry gives him at a particular level.
And as TOZ notes unholy broken for druids. There are a couple Magus archetypes that don't wear armor as well and I think a bard. The light armor cleric archetypes will also probably get as much from Wis to AC as from armor. They can get their enhancement bonuses to AC via magic vestment.
Many light armor clerics also rely on shields.
Please post a specific druid (or cleric) build at whichever level you feel it is particularly broken. I need to see the problem. Most combat-orientated clerics and druids obviously need to rely on higher Strength and Dexterity - meaning they have relatively little Wisdom (and cannot cast mage armor).
But, I see the point of the argument: what if the base flurry is limited to unarmed strikes and monk weapons - and a level 4 insight can unlock flurry use for any weapon?
Opinions?
When you have to put in this many exceptions and limitations, it's time to go back to the drawing board. Cool idea, but like I said, you break the action economy with it. Even with the armour and weapon restriction, I could gladly take that dip to give my duelist, or unarmed fighter, or CoDzilla an extra standard action in a fight.
What about simply stating that BAB from other classes are not added to your BAB when flurrying?
You might as well just say 'multiclass monks lose flurry' rather than come up with all these exceptions.
Or perhaps, as to not gimp anyone who wants to actually do a legit multiclass monk (Monk/Rogues are fun), perhaps "multiclass monks must have equal or more levels in monk to all their other classes combined or lose flurry; flurry is regained once monk levels are equal or greater than other classes combined".
There's probably a better way to word that.
Okay. At times like these, it's best to come up with a ridiculous option.
Ridiculous idea: Rather than giving more Standard Actions, monk flurry gives Move Actions. But a Monk that uses Monk Flurry with a short-list of monk weapons (a bunch of simple weapons and the short sword on their proficiency list, and their exotic weapons), or uses their unarmed strike, can use those move actions as attacks-in-around at your highest base attack bonus instead. The catch of course being that they can only do so if they're using them during full attack action.
So at level 1 - level 7, with two extra move actions, you could move once and then perform a full round action/full attack.
At 8th level, you could move once, perform your full attack action, and then use your remaining move action to make an extra attack at your highest base attack bonus. Or you could instead perform 3 different move-actions, and then spend your standard action on an attack.
And then things would get REALLY crazy at 15th level.
And you could say that you could use those extra move actions as attacks with a standard action attack if you spent a Ki point, replacing the normal "Spend 1 ki to get 1 extra attack action" thing that monk currently has. This gets stronger as you level, by letting you apply more of those bonus attacks with more move actions.
So how is this different than granting Standard Actions? 1st: requires resources to be spent (Ki points) if you want to use these actions to make extra attacks with a standard action. 2nd: if you dip, you're limited to smaller, less effective monk weapons that aren't quite as good in this case if you're just dipping. 3: Being limited to move-action equivalent things unless you're performing a full attack action or spending Ki makes these things still very useful, but not as all-encompassing as Standard Actions.
Although if you did this, I'd suggest reducing Monk Max Speed to 40 feet in a round. Max Speed on a monk who spends at least 2 of these potential extra move actions on moving would be at least 180 feet otherwise... and by level 20 this monk would have at least 4 move actions in a round, 3 of which he could use for ANYTHING, and still have room left over for a full attack action.
It's an idea. Admittedly, there's no reason to spend Ki to turn those extra move actions into attacks-in-a-round if you make a standard action attack, because you could have used one of those extra move actions to turn it into a Full Attack action. But it still gets us closer to the goal. Thoughts?
This works well, as one of the coolest builds I used was the monk/psychic warrior, where hustle allows a character to gain a move action. It makes the monk VERY effective!
ReconstructorFleet, that is a very, very good idea. I would second downgrading that ability from extra standard to extra move (action). One thing it would do would eliminate the need for spring attack at 8th+ (as you spend a move to close, full-attack, and use a move action to move away). Even before 8th level, the ability to take a full move, and THEN get a full-attack is very powerful and does much to overcome the monk's shortcomings.
Master Arminas
One of the benefits of Spring Attack that this monk is denied, is that Spring Attack doesn't provoke AoOs for moving in and out of the attacking enemies threatened squares.
True, Tels. But he still has an outstanding Acrobatics skill that he can use to avoid ANY AoO for movement.
Master Arminas
True, Tels. But he still has an outstanding Acrobatics skill that he can use to avoid ANY AoO for movement.
Master Arminas
You know, I despise the Acrobatics skill? It's right up there with Perception with how mandatory it is amongst the people I play with. I have one guy who as literally yet to make a character in Pathfinder that hasn't min-maxed his Acrobatics to hell and back so he can move about freely.
I mean, seriously, Clerics in Plate using Acrobatics to move through threatened squares. Slightly redikerous.
But it is an appropriate skill for a Monk, eh?
Master Arminas
Okay. At times like these, it's best to come up with a ridiculous option.
...bonus move actions...
The concept is good, but there are problems with this: the inherent monk's full-round attack is pretty sheyte. Getting to move to do your full-round attack at levels 1 through to 7 is entirely meaningless as you get one attack. Unless you spend the feat(s) to get Two Weapon Fighting. In that case you require a minimum of 15 Dexterity (thus adding to the monk's MAD woes).
You could use the Meditation of Fists insight to gain Two Weapon Fighting - but that precludes a whole range of other insights.
Now if you use the extra move actions as attacks (limited to unarmed and monk weapons) - then you end up in the same boat as the "remade Flurry" if it is limited to unarmed and monk weapons: people 1-level-dip for pseudo-pounce.
...all that said - I still haven't seen a single build that is overpowered after introducing a 1-level-dip to get the "remade Flurry". Yes it affects the action-economy, the question is whether it affects the action-economy too much. So please, somebody, build me a druid or cleric or something where the remade Flurry actually is broken.
1-level-dips into various classes is normal (I see barbarian PCs that have 1 level dip in cleric, a level in fighter is pretty normal for that extra feat, 1 level dip in oracle of lore to use Charisma for AC is common enough, etc). It is something that needs to be lived with. The question is whether things get broken or not.
The concept is good, but there are problems with this: the inherent monk's full-round attack is pretty sheyte. Getting to move to do your full-round attack at levels 1 through to 7 is entirely meaningless as you get one attack. Unless you spend the feat(s) to get Two Weapon Fighting. In that case you require a minimum of 15 Dexterity (thus adding to the monk's MAD woes).Okay. At times like these, it's best to come up with a ridiculous option.
...bonus move actions...
Well to be honest, two standard actions isn't much better when you get to higher level, for the monk anyway.
Like I said, great concept, but not the way I would do it. I'd keep the monk's flurry as is, and instead allow them to spend a ki point to gain an extra move action at higher level.
...all that said - I still haven't seen a single build that is overpowered after introducing a 1-level-dip to get the "remade Flurry". Yes it affects the action-economy, the question is whether it affects the action-economy too much. So please, somebody, build me a druid or cleric or something where the remade Flurry actually is broken.
Neither, but a fighter could make it nasty. Bearing in mind that currently you can make an unarmed fighter that out damages the monk, take that unarmed fighter and give him this monk's flurry with one level dipped, and he can still outfight the monk.
1-level-dips into various classes is normal (I see barbarian PCs that have 1 level dip in cleric, a level in fighter is pretty normal for that extra feat, 1 level dip in oracle of lore to use Charisma for AC is common enough, etc). It is something that needs to be lived with. The question is whether things get broken or not.
It is? I have seldom seen it to be honest, especially for casters. Pathfinder made the carrot for staying in one class too tasty for me to dip.
I mean, seriously, Clerics in Plate using Acrobatics to move through threatened squares. Slightly redikerous.A character cannot use Acrobatics to avoid AoOs while his speed is reduced by armor.
Oh I know, I probably should have pointed out that his acrobatics was min-maxed enough that he could avoid AoO if possible. He always wore a Mithral chain shirt, but he pointed out to me if his Cleric could, he would, and his skill was high enough to do it too.
I dislike acrobatics because the only time I ever see it used (not just in groups, but others' as well), is for avoiding AoOs. The exception is one character who enjoys playing highly mobile characters, and is creative enough to use it. For instance, he has a halfling rogue that rides on a dog. We were fighting something that resembled a demon-goat, but was apparently a magical beast. Anyway, he charged it on the dog, and before he got near the goat, he made a fast dismount/acrobatics check to jump off the dog, over it's head, and land on the other side just as his dog moved into position to attack. Now he was flanking with the dog and sneak attacked it to hell and back.
Anyway, he's the only character to use Acrobatics for more than just 'tumbling' which I give him props for all the time. For the most part, no one else uses it in any other way.
Well to be honest, two standard actions isn't much better when you get to higher level, for the monk anyway.The concept is good, but there are problems with this: the inherent monk's full-round attack is pretty sheyte. Getting to move to do your full-round attack at levels 1 through to 7 is entirely meaningless as you get one attack. Unless you spend the feat(s) to get Two Weapon Fighting. In that case you require a minimum of 15 Dexterity (thus adding to the monk's MAD woes).Okay. At times like these, it's best to come up with a ridiculous option.
...bonus move actions...
That is why at level 8, and 15 (incidentally where you'd get another iterative attack at 3/4 BAB) you get an additional Standard Action. 4 Standard Actions at level 15 is pretty useful.
...all that said - I still haven't seen a single build that is overpowered after introducing a 1-level-dip to get the "remade Flurry". Yes it affects the action-economy, the question is whether it affects the action-economy too much. So please, somebody, build me a druid or cleric or something where the remade Flurry actually is broken.Neither, but a fighter could make it nasty. Bearing in mind that currently you can make an unarmed fighter that out damages the monk, take that unarmed fighter and give him this monk's flurry with one level dipped, and he can still outfight the monk.
Not true. I mean, you need to qualify at what level you're looking at it. That a fighter (unarmed or not) tends to do better damage than a monk is a given; that is a fighter's job. But a level 11 hero (fighter 10/monk1) could spend his turn doing 2 Standard Actions (2 x Vital Strike is quite nice). Or he could have 1 more BAB and do 6 attacks with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
Should he want to flurry, he cannot use armor or shield - so he'll have to rely on some other means to get decent AC. Not that many potent unarmed fighter builds do a lot of DPR if they have to have 16 Wisdom just so that they don't get hit too often.
How good is that level 1 dip into monk for the flurry >really< ?
Well to be honest, two standard actions isn't much better when you get to higher level, for the monk anyway.The concept is good, but there are problems with this: the inherent monk's full-round attack is pretty sheyte. Getting to move to do your full-round attack at levels 1 through to 7 is entirely meaningless as you get one attack. Unless you spend the feat(s) to get Two Weapon Fighting. In that case you require a minimum of 15 Dexterity (thus adding to the monk's MAD woes).Okay. At times like these, it's best to come up with a ridiculous option.
...bonus move actions...
That is why at level 8, and 15 (incidentally where you'd get another iterative attack at 3/4 BAB) you get an additional Standard Action. 4 Standard Actions at level 15 is pretty useful.
...all that said - I still haven't seen a single build that is overpowered after introducing a 1-level-dip to get the "remade Flurry". Yes it affects the action-economy, the question is whether it affects the action-economy too much. So please, somebody, build me a druid or cleric or something where the remade Flurry actually is broken.Neither, but a fighter could make it nasty. Bearing in mind that currently you can make an unarmed fighter that out damages the monk, take that unarmed fighter and give him this monk's flurry with one level dipped, and he can still outfight the monk.
Not true. I mean, you need to qualify at what level you're looking at it. That a fighter (unarmed or not) tends to do better damage than a monk is a given; that is a fighter's job. But a level 11 hero (fighter 10/monk1) could spend his turn doing 2 Standard Actions (2 x Vital Strike is quite nice). Or he could have 1 more BAB and do 6 attacks with Greater/Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
Should he want to flurry, he cannot use armor or shield - so he'll have to rely on some other means to get decent AC. Not that many potent unarmed fighter builds do a lot of DPR if they have to have 16 Wisdom just so that they don't get hit.
So how good is that level 1 dip really?
2 Standard Actions isn't a great dip for most fighting classes, beyond those that want a Pseudo-pounce...or the ability to make a charge attack and then use their remaining standard action to drop a normal attack on top.
Meanwhile, the average spellcaster who takes a 1 level dip suddenly just gained the ability to fire off two spells in a round without any of the Quicken silliness that spellcasters normally need to go through.
And if they're high enough level to be able to quicken spells, that's 3 spells in a round, two at your highest spell level, and one that's been quickened up from it's normal level.
Yes, it uses up a lot of resources very quickly. But you just handed your average Sorcerer or Wizard a one-level dip that lets them pop off two high-damage spells in a round, every round.
Giving extra, real-deal standard actions, destroys the action economy and gives just about every class in the game a potential 1 level super-dip.
Reconsider the move action that can also be a Monk Attack. And if you're worried about it being where monk stands now in terms of always missing, I strongly suggest either giving your Monk Full BAB, or a Weapon Training style bonus to attack and damage, or (preferably) both.
Huh. The board at my post...oh well.
1 Extra Standard action for a 1 level dip means 1 extra spell per round by any spellcaster, effectively granting a much more cost-effective version of quicken spell.
1 Extra Standard Action at low level means that you could perform a charge attack, and then use your remaining standard action to attack again.
1 Extra Standard Action means one more potion or magic item consumed per round.
1 Extra standard action is...pretty massive, man. :(