Goblin Squad Member
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No thanks. Please don't make dungeons sellable in any way.
How many adventures start with a shady character beckoning the party over and offering to sell the the location of some old dwarven ruins for a few gold pieces? Knowing the location of one of these is valuable information you should be able to sell. If you're a powerful character that finds one, why not sell the privilege of letting people accompany you for a share of the loot?
If someone's running around trying to find these dungeon entrances, they're not gathering ore or exploring dungeons on their own. They're gathering their own resource of information.
That said, one person shouldn't be able to lock down tons of these until they have a monopoly. A 12-hour despawn would be appropriate.
Hmm. Delbin makes a good point. To keep the Pathfinder flavor in tact that is a good example of how the Gollarion setting would work.
Though, the potential for abuse is there.
Also, keep in mind that in Gollarion, even though some shady dwarf in a tavern is willing to sell you the location of a ruin, doesn't mean he can't physically prevent you from entering the same min or anyone else unless there is a single key/spell that it takes for entry and only he has it.
In THAT light, locking is badwrongfun. "Why can't I enter this wide open cavern?" Nothing would prevent the prospector type character from existing in PFO, but the abuse aspect doesn't exist in modules where similar situations exist as GMs would be wasting their time sending the group to an already looted place and this would piss off the players.
Now, given that whole exchange, my preference is one of first come first serve. If someone gets the coordinates to a dungeon then awesome. But, just like any other "living" world, they run the risk of getting there and finding out someone else had already been there. Because, to be honest, perhaps to a lesser extent, but some mods do also start with the coordinates being wrong or worthless but that also leads into another plot hook.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some dungeons are small areas that are randomly created by the game. There will always be a certain number of these in any given hex. That number will fluctuate based on conditions in the hex. As they are completed or abandoned, they'll be removed and respawned automatically. As you explore, you'll always have a chance to find something interesting.
Couple points here suggest that there wont be a lack of access to these. Pretty simple game functions would keep them running smoothly.
1> Make the amount available in the hex tied directly to the popultion.
2> Limit lock out to 1 per character, non-transferable.
3> Time on lock out limited to 2 hours.
4> Once a second tier mob <luetinant, etc.> is killed, remove it from the active list and allow a new dungeon to spawn.
Simple easy points to keep content rolling along with out allowing people to horde lockouts.
Other dungeons are larger and more complex, and are generated as a result of the questing system. When a character receives a quest that involves a dungeon, that dungeon will be generated in the game world, but it will not be discoverable for anyone except the character with the matching quest. A party of characters, though, can share their quests so that more than one individual can search for the entrance. Generally speaking, the only characters who will find and adventure within these kinds of dungeons are those participating in a given quest. When the dungeon is abandoned or completed, it will automatically be removed by the game.
This will also keep people from hording dungeons being it is only available to the person with the quest. If he shares it, it will probably be with his friends and guildies and I doubt they would steal it from the original person. These two sets of "dungeon" spawns should be enough to keep every one busy while they aren't doing other things.
There's a third kind of dungeon, the largest and most challenging type:These are often designed to have several different entrances, each of which could be discovered by a different character, and shared by several parties. While exploring this kind of dungeon, you may very well encounter other characters! Fight, parlay, flee, or join forces—the results are up to you. Challenges in these dungeons may even require coordination between groups to complete—one party might have to fight through a room of undead to lower a magical barrier so that another party can access a different part of the dungeon.These dungeons will also typically have some effects on their hex. They may generate a certain type of random encounter, the frequency and severity determined by how long the dungeon has been active and how effective player characters have been at overcoming its minions. These dungeons may spawn quest threads that take you to other dungeons, or be a source of unique resources needed for certain highly specialized crafting jobs. These dungeons can escalate, changing from a nuisance to a threat, or even evolving to the point where the hex could become uninhabitable.
In my opinion, this type sounds like a raid type dungeon where there will need to be cooperation to accomplish. Sounds like loads of fun
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would prefer to see a character able to lock maybe 8 dungeons at a time.
I'm hoping that it will be possible to sell access to the dungeons by inviting another player to my group, taking them inside the dungeon, and then letting them bring in their own group without me.
For that to be worthwhile, I would need to be able to lock several dungeons at a time until I found a buyer.
Ryan, when I discover a new dungeon, will it be at all obvious to me whether it's the first type or the third type?
I personally disagree with such a large number there. Or if it is such a large number the time certainly has to be far less then 1 week. Otherwise we are looking at a 20 man crew locking down 160 dungeons. People looking to play them will likely clear them out within an hour or 2, immidiately throwing the dungeons back into the gambling pool for the dungeon hoarders to take, and before long they will rig up the price into the sky. Similar to how in eve, goonswarm was able to raise the price of ice into the sky by controling it, a similar group could rapidly control most of the dungeons in the game, and inflate their prices to the point where few people could afford to actually play a dungeon.
The only counter is to make dungeons far more plentiful, and well if you can always find a dungeon within 30 mins to an hour, who really needs holding mechanics at all, it would make more sense to grab a group and find a dungeon, instead of finding a dungeon then grabbing a group.
Onishi, if I recall correctly, dungeons will pop up in random spots within a hex making "camping" effectively impossible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Many good points raised about potential for abuse.
I find the arguments persuasive. I really wouldn't have a problem with a player only being allowed a single dungeon lock, with a timer in the 2 hour range.
The cost of failing to capitalize on a dungeon lock just isn't big enough to offset the abuse potential.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even with a one player, one dungeon system it's still possible for organized groups to lock down an area, albeit temporarily.
I have the feeling this will be an issue that will need to be adjusted based on live play. A subject for the beta, perhaps.
Perhaps this will be an issue in NPC territory. I know if a company were to start locking down all the dungeons in the area around my companies hex, they weren't actively using them themselves, and they didn't have the military power to back it up... I would have a thing or two say about it. Something along the lines of "We share dungeons here. You better cut it out or we'll KOS your whole company and burn down your holdings."
On the other hand if a clan owns the hex, they should be able to lock down the dungeons to their hearts content. It's their territory.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Onishi, if I recall correctly, dungeons will pop up in random spots within a hex making "camping" effectively impossible.
"camping" as in waiting in the same spot yes. "camping" as in having 10 people scouting the hex, if they get it they hold it for the maximum possible time, If someone else gets it then it will be cleared quickly and they can grab a new one, is fully possible.
Sure, though that would require an effort that I genuinely question the existence of in a game that's only going to start with 4,500 people to cover the size of Philadelphia.
@Andius By "lockdown" I hope you mean "guard the border" or "shoot trespassers on sight."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sure, though that would require an effort that I genuinely question the existence of in a game that's only going to start with 4,500 people to cover the size of Philadelphia.
@Andius By "lockdown" I hope you mean "guard the border" or "shoot trespassers on sight."
By lock down I mean a company coming into my clan's hex, or neutral uncontrolled territory, and starts having all their members find and claim dungeons so that none of the dungeons are available, then selling the dungeons or just sitting there and not using all the dungeons they have claimed... I would just start killing members of that company every time I saw them, and have my whole clan do the same. If they had any structures in the area we would burn them down. After a warning to stop was given of course.
That is what I mean by locking down dungeons. Making more dungeons unavailable to the general public than those you intend to use in order to create an artificial shortage or just to tick people off.
I think that will be most companies reactions if they can't use their dungeons because outside clans are coming in and locking them down. If a clan locks down all the dungeons in their own hex more power to them.
Prettymuch what I am saying is in a game where 90% of the territory is going to be player owned, I don't see a reason to fret about companies dungeon griefing. They can only do it to so much territory or they will tick a lot of people off and get destroyed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i believe the manpower sufficient to claim ownership of a zone or hex should be sufficient enough to tip over the expansion of the full map to include more hexes. in this way more frontier will always be available. I also still think the assumption that 10 (or 20, or whatever amount) people can effectively lock down a hex of all dungeons lacks accommodation for all the other potential interactions with the universe. If its a flat hex, without NPC or PC interactions, obstructions, player controlled buildings, extra-powerful Heroic monsters, with unlimited timeframes to play and exploit then maybe a small number of people can eliminate the fun for others. even all those theoretical givens (and unlikely at that) these people will immediately garner the reputation of Dungeon-Hogs and will suffer the rewards and repercussions.
If you can gather enough people to accommodate all of the other conditions it would require to actually do that, well chances are you've probably owned the hex for sometime already.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I sorta like the potential for abuse. If a large group of players want to lock down the dungeons in a hex, let them. This encourages conflict. If it bothers enough players, then the other players will band together to deal with the group. And there are other hexes.
What I'm hearing in this thread are people who don't want to deal with other players. People who don't like the idea of a group of individuals having impact on an area in the game. That's the reason I'm wanting to play, is to have an impact on an area of the game. I'd love to eventually "own" a hex. Aren't we all trying for the same thing? Establishing communities and kingdoms and having an impact? If I can't lay claim to my area of the game, even with a small guild of several dozen like-minded individuals, then why am I playing?
The only issue I would have are people doing this in the starting NPC hexes where the NPC settlements are and where new players start the game. But, again, I would like to see the players of this game police their own. If it starts to happen and other players are made aware of it, I'd hope someone would step up and put a stop to it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I sorta like the potential for abuse. If a large group of players want to lock down the dungeons in a hex, let them. This encourages conflict. If it bothers enough players, then the other players will band together to deal with the group. And there are other hexes.
What I'm hearing in this thread are people who don't want to deal with other players. People who don't like the idea of a group of individuals having impact on an area in the game. That's the reason I'm wanting to play, is to have an impact on an area of the game. I'd love to eventually "own" a hex. Aren't we all trying for the same thing? Establishing communities and kingdoms and having an impact? If I can't lay claim to my area of the game, even with a small guild of several dozen like-minded individuals, then why am I playing?
The only issue I would have are people doing this in the starting NPC hexes where the NPC settlements are and where new players start the game. But, again, I would like to see the players of this game police their own. If it starts to happen and other players are made aware of it, I'd hope someone would step up and put a stop to it.
+1
There seems to be a lot of people always concerned with others exploiting and or taking advantage of game mechanics. I do understand their concerns but I also find it rather disturbing to say the least.Most of these exploiting and griefing issues I see come up here on the forums could simply be countered with player interaction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I haven't read the whole thread, so keep that in mind when reading my points.
First of all, I love the idea of a little dungeon crawling/
Second, I love the idea of multiple parties being able to go through the same dungeon. Imagine going through a dungeon, thinking the whole time you're the only party in there, not knowing a group of assassins has been silently shadowing you and just waiting for a nasty fight to pounce out and collect on their contract, then loot the boss chest you just worked so hard to get! So fun!
Third, the idea being discussed of locking dungeons for later use...I don't care for the idea at all:
-it ruins immersion
-the sooner a dungeon is cleared, the sooner a new one can be spawned somewhere else
-dungeons generate hordes that harass settlements, and that has huge potential for griefing. Players could lock and relock and relock dungeons near their enemies settlements. And the longer a dungeon is active, the more and the meaner the monsters coming out of it to attack settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Skwiziks, sorry, I apparently didn't piece everything together.
I believe Blaeringr is referring to this:
There's a third kind of dungeon, the largest and most challenging type...
These dungeons will also typically have some effects on their hex. They may generate a certain type of random encounter, the frequency and severity determined by how long the dungeon has been active and how effective player characters have been at overcoming its minions... These dungeons can escalate, changing from a nuisance to a threat, or even evolving to the point where the hex could become uninhabitable.
So, it sounds very much like the Type 3 dungeons will function the same way Encampments do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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u should be able to go into any dungeon at any time,just finding it for urself is pointless..i wana be able to find a dungeon someone else found and rape the life out of it :D it adds gameplay value and if i find a dungeon and we go in,other people should be able to rape us...means ur always on the look out
Like almost everything else in PFO, it sounds like the way to get the really great rewards from dungeons will be to take the risk of going into the Type 3 Dungeons, where you'll need to be on the lookout for other players as well as mobs.
Players who choose to adventure in private dungeons because they've made the choice to lessen their risk and are willing to accept the lessened rewards should not have that choice taken away from them because you wan to "rape" them.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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u should be able to go into any dungeon at any time,just finding it for urself is pointless..i wana be able to find a dungeon someone else found and rape the life out of it :D it adds gameplay value and if i find a dungeon and we go in,other people should be able to rape us...means ur always on the look out
I'm going to point out that explicit sexual content is not likely to be supported. The word which describes the concept I think you wanted is 'gank'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think many here underestimate the size of the PFO world and instinctively apply the very small worlds of classic MMOs to this system which, indeed, would carry many problems.
But PFO is huge and fast travelling does not exist in the wilderness.
Finding a dungeon and calling a group will be a noteable investment of time, so locking several dungeons or even all dungeons in even a single hex would require the concentrated action of a large amount of players (which is entirely possible in a hex dominated by a guild).
I also guess that there will really be no shortage of Dungeons so finding a dungeon entrance will not be a "once in a lifetime" event.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like most of what I'm hearing about dungeons, but I'm not sure I like the idea of another group of "heroes" waiting to attack/rob/grief me when I'm dungeon crawling. I can see competition and conflict being fun, but we've all seen how antagonistic online gamers can be, and I can see this going very bad very quickly. I'm sure there will be ramifications for doing so, but we cant police each other 24/7. My opinion is probably 75% innate skepticism, but there's some logic there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like most of what I'm hearing about dungeons, but I'm not sure I like the idea of another group of "heroes" waiting to attack/rob/grief me when I'm dungeon crawling. I can see competition and conflict being fun, but we've all seen how antagonistic online gamers can be, and I can see this going very bad very quickly. I'm sure there will be ramifications for doing so, but we cant police each other 24/7. My opinion is probably 75% innate skepticism, but there's some logic there.
Well that is exclusively the multi-entrance dungeons, of which as far as I know are specific events, set to special quests at certain times. How often or when they come into existance is unknown, but I don't know for certain that these are the common daily or even weekly dungeon crawls.
Now the common dungeon I don't think you strongly need to worry about being ganked. The enterence location isn't known until you find it, meaning odds are no-one has had a chance to set up an ambush for the purpose of targetting people into that dungeon (that does not however exclude general ambushes that have no idea what is there).
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Goblin Squad Member
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... the multi-entrance dungeons, of which as far as I know are specific events, set to special quests at certain times.
That's not the way I read it.
My understanding is that Type 3 Dungeons will spawn randomly, kind of like Encampments. They will generate new quests in the area, and will influence at least some random encounters in the area.
I don't believe that it has been said that they will be tied to specific events, or special quests, or be limited to certain times.
But your point is valid. The random, common Type 1 Dungeons will be private, as will the Type 2 Dungeons which are spawned from specific quests.
Aereus, keep in mind nothing is set in stone. To my knowledge, development hasn't even begun on the project yet. Goblinworks is still arranging 3rd-party agreements, doing research and working through conceptualization. Any discussion happening on these boards is either speculative or completely subject to change. In that light, no one can tell you it will work, only how they hope it can work.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I was wondering if anyone could clarify how the grouping system will work for me. With talk about the various types of groups, fulfilling roles within them, etc. This is what I see in my head as to how that would work -- or am I totally off-base here?
The way grouping would work in the game sounds intriguing: You form a group for a specific purpose, and when the goal of the group is achieved, everyone gets their reward.
Eg: You want to take a trade caravan from City A to City B. You form a Trade Group and people sign up for the various roles of the party -- the rewards are placed automatically in escrow by the group leader. When the caravan reaches it's destination, everyone gets their reward.
This would allow for a lot of realistic open-world events to occur, while streamlining the process to make it easier to form groups, and avoid certain exploitative behavior.
Or are the groups going to be pretty much up to the leader to sign up people for, and pay them manually?
That's a really good idea. I'm uncertain how to administer the escrow, except to have a trusted human determine if the contract was fulfilled.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Aereus, that's a really interesting idea.
I wonder, are you thinking in terms of having players "queue up" and be drawn into a Trade Group from anywhere, kind of like WoW's Dungeon Finder? While something like that would certainly be possible, and would probably even be useful and used, I expect many Trade Groups would only allow trusted guards into the guard party. PFO will be a much more political game than most MMOs, especially Theme Park MMOs. You have to keep in mind that different Companies will be vying for control, and that espionage, sabotage, and betrayal will play a significant role in the game.
While I think Decius is right that you'd basically need the group leader to determine if the group achieved their goals, it's possible you could also allow the group to vote on that. Ideally, the game system would allow specific goals to be defined unambiguously, and in a manner where the system itself could determine if they were achieved.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm sorry but hearing talk of locking multiple dungeons in order to sell access is sad. Do that in a PnP Pathfinder campaign and that group that you "sell" the location to will not only kill you, steal all of your belongings, make a Texas Chainsaw Massacre meets Mr. T necklace out of your bones, intestines, and skin... but they wouldn't actually pay you either.
Why are we already thinking of ways to manipulate a system that they are putting in place to help ensure non-stagnant, non-repetitive game play?
If that's the case, then everyone should be able to access it. It's still there. If someone else comes up on it then it should be thiers to explore and YOU should be the one locked out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... everyone should be able to access it. It's still there. If someone else comes up on it then it should be thiers to explore and YOU should be the one locked out.
That's not the way the developers have described it.
From the blog:
Once a character enters the dungeon, though, that entrance becomes "locked" to that explorer; other characters won't be able to find that entrance.
I'm sorry but hearing talk of locking multiple dungeons in order to sell access is sad.
What's sad about it? That an Explorer might make some coin trading on the information he's gained?
A big potential downfall to locking instances is that if the player dies IRL, quits the game, doesn't go through the instance because it's too hard or something they don't enjoy (a thief type dungeon versus a hack and slash maybe??) then that's a wasted instance, for intents and purposes. Either of those is likely to happen as we're all human and have our own quirks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon
I grasp the concept. I've read the blog. My point is YOU are describing is soliciting access to an in-game resource to which the only claim you have is "oh I found it". Logically, someone else can find it too. The reason they LOCK it is so that you and your party can enjoy the dungeon without getting griefed... not so you can lead some other players to a game resource with a mechanic behind it to add to your gaming experience and exchange that for in-game profit when you really didn't do anything at all besides walk around.
This would only lead to several small children in China switching from WoW or EQ2 over to a game that we don't want them in because its already ruined the other games we liked.
Could this be turned into a class/occupation? Yes. But not how you described it. You described dungeon farming. Not actually giving back to the virtual world you are in, just running around locking dungeons and selling access to them. If you were required to buy permits, provide escort support, actually have an investment in the dungeon besides just finding it, I would be more open to the idea. If that is infact what you had in mind, you did a poor job of explaining it.
"What's sad about it? That an Explorer might make some coin trading on the information he's gained? "
If this is a dungeon that is not lockable, no problem. My issue is with the fact that as I am an Explorer too, I should be able to discover the same things as you. That not happening because you and your friends are going through the dungeon like someone would in the PnP sense is perfectly fine with me. It not happening because you want to make some gold off someone else is unacceptable for me.
Now that the horse has been beat to death, are there any other ways you could think of to exploit the proposed mechanics of the game? If so please start listing.
@Buri
YMMV but I interpreted the blog as stating that dungeons will be locked for a limited amount of time... and some only after you have completed them.
Someone stated above about EQ2 and how instances didn't lock until the first significant foe was killed. This could be implimented and work.