I keep reading stuff on the forums about barbarians and still don't get why they are so popular.
They're supposed to deal high-damage. However, a level 20 barbarian vs a level 20 fighter will lose on:
- Greater Focus (+1 to hit)
- Weapon spe & Greater (+ 4 to damage)
- Weapon training (+4 to hit, +4 to damage)
- gloves of the duelist (+2 to hit, +2 to damage).
So the barbarian loses +7 to hit, +10 to damage.
His mighty rage gives him +8 strength, so that's +4 to hit, +6 to damage (assuming the best scenario with a 2H weapon).
Sure, he'll have more HP (although not that much, around 22 if we get the standard protection) but he'll have way less AC.
I looked at the rage powers, but they don't seem that great to me (apart from the all-mighty "come and get me", which can still prove risky, and the greater beast totem, which gives pounce but costs 3 powers).
So what ? Is it just rage cycling ? What did I miss ?
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They are something to fear for raw damage dealing at low levels; at level 1 you can be +9 to hit and instant-kill most end bosses. They're easy to build and have quite a few good kits.
They wane at higher levels worse than fighters; as many of their abilities don't scale well and being dropped in rage is deadly after about level 10. But at low levels there is no scarier thing to face.
Otherwise a lot of it comes from the great comedy of a poster "AM BARBARIAN"; which involves a Synthasist-riding pounce-barian with superstitious that has never actually been built out. Ignoring his comedy, they really are pretty terrible mid-to-high. BUT, most campaigns don't see those levels; so that is usually fine.
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OK, what is this "AM BARBARIAN" thing? I keep picturing my character from my last Fallout 2 "Stupid Run" staggering forth shouting "Am Barbarian! Daaaah!"
Or is this character a morning show host? "Join us at KDXQ for the Tuesday Morning Show with A.M. Barbarian and Dilbo the Angry Halfling!"
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...but never actually built out for comparison. It was a theorycraft build, made in a thread of Melee vs spellcaster and traveled to many threads. Quite funny (and the guy doing it sounded like he "knew his stuff"), but the imitators were bad.
They do have one of the highest DC combos in the dazzling display make everyone run combo. A character built for that can have the DC 24 by level 10, really good for a mass-AE fear build (and the dazzle makes them -2 to life in the first place).
I thought superstitious was just about one of the worst rage powers, since it works on your party too (this means no heal coming our way...) ?
AM BARD IS NOT IMITATOR! AM GREAT FOLLOWER OF AM BARBARIAN!
I'd like to think of barbarians is freaking tanks.
One of my friends told me this insane story about this barbarian he made that just would soak up damage. His AC was better flatfooted. at any rate, he decided to carry a keg of firepowder and have the gunslinger shoot him. KABOOM!! he took out the house, the block, took 100+ damage at level 5... AND LIVED!!
I don't have his build on hand
Surviving that keg exploding is possible with Max HP. 5d12(60)+5(Toughness)+5(Favored Class)+60(20 Con) = 130
Even with average HP, Barbarians can easily get or 200 Hit Points(technically higher with Damage Reduction) and still have a respectable Offense and Defense.
I keep reading stuff on the forums about barbarians and still don't get why they are so popular.
They're supposed to deal high-damage. However, a level 20 barbarian vs a level 20 fighter will lose on:
- Greater Focus (+1 to hit)
- Weapon spe & Greater (+ 4 to damage)
- Weapon training (+4 to hit, +4 to damage)
- gloves of the duelist (+2 to hit, +2 to damage).So the barbarian loses +7 to hit, +10 to damage.
His mighty rage gives him +8 strength, so that's +4 to hit, +6 to damage (assuming the best scenario with a 2H weapon).
Sure, he'll have more HP (although not that much, around 22 if we get the standard protection) but he'll have way less AC.
I looked at the rage powers, but they don't seem that great to me (apart from the all-mighty "come and get me", which can still prove risky, and the greater beast totem, which gives pounce but costs 3 powers).
So what ? Is it just rage cycling ? What did I miss ?
Other than Damage Resistance, more skills, fast movement, uncanny dodge and trap sense? Nothing really.
DR bolsters your better hit points (and at high level, you get hit anyway)
More skills are always useful outside of the fight.
Fast movement is always handy.
Uncanny dodge means you needn't fear a knife in the back
Trap sense means that with your skills you actually make a half-decent scout as well as a melee basher.
As for the rage powers, they are not all combat oriented, or a situational, but that doesn't make them bad as such.
So maybe the fighter is king of AC and dishing damage, the barbarian has more flexibility outside of combat, and can dish out respectable damage when in combat.
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Outside of huge bonuses to Str and HP, virtual immunity to combat maneuvers and spells that they may even sunder like they would break bones, pounce, a s+&%-ton of attacks per round (including natural and AoO), DR, auto-hit abilities, uncanny dodge, good speed, and the capacity to grab/bite an enemy to death by smashing others with it ?
Nothing so great, actually, like you can see.
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Most people aren't playing at 20th level, so that may not be the best comparison.
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I keep reading stuff on the forums about barbarians and still don't get why they are so popular.
They're supposed to deal high-damage. However, a level 20 barbarian vs a level 20 fighter will lose on:
- Greater Focus (+1 to hit)
- Weapon spe & Greater (+ 4 to damage)
- Weapon training (+4 to hit, +4 to damage)
- gloves of the duelist (+2 to hit, +2 to damage).So the barbarian loses +7 to hit, +10 to damage.
His mighty rage gives him +8 strength, so that's +4 to hit, +6 to damage (assuming the best scenario with a 2H weapon).
You are completely ignoring Reckless Abandon (+6 more to hit for -6 AC, not a trade everyone wants to make, but workable). As well as Witch Hunter (+6 damage against anything with spells or spell-like abilities, ie: almost everything at high levels).
And if you're including Gloves of Dueling, there's also the Furious weapon property which does exactly the same thing (effectively) for a Barbarian, making it +6/+8 even without the Rage Powers mentioned.
So with two Rage Powers, the total can come out to +12/+14 for the Barbarian (vs. the fighter's +7/+8), and significantly better offensively than the Fighter (though at the expense of a -6 AC). Or +6/+14, a bit less to hit but more damage by quite a bit, and no AC disadvantage.
Sure, he'll have more HP (although not that much, around 22 if we get the standard protection) but he'll have way less AC.
Not necessarily. He only loses 2 from Rage, and can more than make up for that with Beast Totem (+6 NA by 20th), and (if he's low Dex and wants to) can always wear Heavy Armor. The Fighter's Armor Training will add 4 AC at best, after all. So Beast Totem and Armor Training actually equal out precisely OR Beast Totem perfectly counters Reckless Abandon. So the Barbarian either has a much better offense in exchange for his lower defense or he's got about equal AC.
And his HP will be more like 100, 120 higher while raging, bear in mind (+8 Con, remember, +10 if he's got Raging Vitality, which he should).
I looked at the rage powers, but they don't seem that great to me (apart from the all-mighty "come and get me", which can still prove risky, and the greater beast totem, which gives pounce but costs 3 powers).
Beast Totem (as mentioned above) is actually awesome in it's own right (Lesser is admittedly a bit of a speed bump).
In addition to the powers I mentioned above above you're missing how utterly awesome Superstition is (even without the human Favored Class bonus) +7 to all saves vs. spells and spell-like or supernatural abilities is a huge edge for a melee fighter. This does result in issues with allies healing him, as you note, but Channel Energy and Lay on Hands both still work perfectly, as do (potentially) potions and/or Alchemist Extracts (depending on your GM).
It also leads into Spell Sunder, which is pretty great, especialy at high levels (and best yet when combined with Strength Surge and rage cycling).
So what ? Is it just rage cycling ? What did I miss ?
The Rage powers, basically. You really need to look through all of them. Many are bad, but there are more than enough good ones to make the Barbarian really damn badass. Heck, the build I'm aluding to throughout this (Superstition/Beast Totem Rage Power lines, plus maybe Reckless Abandon and Strength Surge) is only one build (though I think one of the best). I'm sure others can expound on the virtues of others (the uses and abuses of Come and Get ME, for example).
Or, to put it another way: A Barbarian can just about equal a Fighter's to-hit, AC, and damage (or sacrifice AC for a much better to-hit) while having pounce, vastly more HP, much better saves, and possibly the ability to Dispel Magic with his greatsword. Oh, and much better skills. What's not to like about that?
In fairness, the Barbarian is quite a bit more vulnerable when not raging (as he likely lacks the save enhancing Feats, for example), has limited rounds of Rage, and is likely to have maybe one maneuver feat (probably Sunder if anything, to aid in Spell Sunder), and is otherwise Feat deprived compared to the Fighter. And, as mentioned, has some healing issues. Still, there are a number of areas he is outright superior to the Fighter in.
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HP difference assuming same constitution, 20th level. Also assumes Barbarian is raging (and at 20th level, hes pretty much raging for every fight). I tend to see higher constitution scores on Barbarians than on Fighters (the latter usually have more incentive for extra dexterity and higher wisdom).
D12 vs D10 HD- 21HP (max 1st level adds 2, average die roll is 1 higher for 19 levels= +21)
Mighty Rage- 80HP (+8 constitution mighty rage).
Raging Vitality- 20HP (+2 additional constitution from rage).
So assuming the same constitution, the Barbarian is up 121HP over the fighter. The Invulnerable archetype is pretty popular at the moment and adds DR10/- on top of that, double for non-lethal damage and you can crank it higher with rage powers if you really want.
Race cycling and Come and Get Me are basically the things that keep Barbarian relevant. And come online about when Fighter is overtaking Barb for damage otherwise.
If you do not use them, the Barb is doomed to be inferior to the Fighter at the hitting things real hard "role." With them, he can compete against fighter quite well for that.
EDIT: And Barbaian sucks past level 12 when you get CaGM. No other rage powers or class features are worth those last 8 levels, which is pretty sad to say about the UPPER 8 levels... The only reasons to stay in past that are highers #'s for Invuln. Rager DR and Strength Surge bonus.
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Race cycling and Come and Get Me are basically the things that keep Barbarian relevant. And come online about when Fighter is overtaking Barb for damage otherwise.
If you do not use them, the Barb is doomed to be inferior to the Fighter at the hitting things real hard "role." With them, he can compete against fighter quite well for that.
Of course, the above assumes you're playing "2-round Rocket Tag" which is the only viable way of playing D&D.
I keep reading stuff on the forums about barbarians and still don't get why they are so popular.
They're supposed to deal high-damage. However, a level 20 barbarian vs a level 20 fighter will lose on:
- Greater Focus (+1 to hit)
- Weapon spe & Greater (+ 4 to damage)
- Weapon training (+4 to hit, +4 to damage)
- gloves of the duelist (+2 to hit, +2 to damage).So the barbarian loses +7 to hit, +10 to damage.
His mighty rage gives him +8 strength, so that's +4 to hit, +6 to damage (assuming the best scenario with a 2H weapon).
Sure, he'll have more HP (although not that much, around 22 if we get the standard protection) but he'll have way less AC.
I looked at the rage powers, but they don't seem that great to me (apart from the all-mighty "come and get me", which can still prove risky, and the greater beast totem, which gives pounce but costs 3 powers).
So what ? Is it just rage cycling ? What did I miss ?
Bah. My Paladin out-damages them all and is much more survivable.
AM PALADIN!!!
If you do not use them, the Barb is doomed to be inferior to the Fighter at the hitting things real hard "role." With them, he can compete against fighter quite well for that.*points at own post above* How so? Math on the Fighter's bonuses please, I'm curious.
Reckless Abandon sort of helps, but a high level barb is getting most of his damage from AoOs at full BAB (or full BAB -5 if using Dazing Assault, as he should be), so he probably won't need the help on attack rolls.
Witch Hunter...not everything has SLAs; and not every Barbarian wants to take on the massive risk that Superstition is.
Furious weapon in the long run costs MUCH more than the gloves of dueling, due to exponential price increase on further enhancing weapons.
As for defenses...his AC w/ CaGM and Reckless Abandon, if you want to include it, will probably be like 12-15 below the fighter's. That's crazy! He has a lot more hp IF you consider rage hp, but I wouldn't want to constantly rely on that shaky buffer zone to keep me alive...
Superstition is only good w/ Human FC alternate. +7 saves (much of the will bonus, the one you care about the most, overlapping w/ normal rage b/c paizo fails at proofreading bonus types forever) is NOT worth having to save against allies' spells. With human boosting it to more like +13, it's worthwhile. Spell Sunder needs strength surge to work, and both aren't worth taking w/o rage cycling.
Your post confirms what I said...using rage cycling, at least, can make barb competitive with fighter. I'd say rage cycling and CaGM if you want to outright surpass him for damage, though.
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Just sayin', Come and Get Me + Dazing Assault + Paired Opportunists + high-crit weapon (+ Butterfly's Sting if you really want to be mean) : AoO orgy on what is now dazed pulp creeping in red mist.
Fighters may be best at dealing constant damage, barbarian has still the best damage/resistance/berserk mode surge potential.
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Why are they popular? Because it's cooler to play a raging nutcase who can take damage that would floor a dinosaur and keep coming than it is to play a soft shandy-drinking wallflower who has to wear half a tonne of metal because he's scared of getting a little cut on his left pinky.
Mechanically who cares? Barbarians rock the house.
The main advantage to barbarians, as mentioned above (IMO of course), is how good you can be against spell casters/users. You can pump saves to stupidly high levels, sunder spells (which makes dispel magic look feeble), add in eater of magic (you get a re-roll of your save and it heals you if you make it), witch hunter, and other toys.
Fighters get nice, consistent damage. That's all well and fine until they're dominated and using that damage to chop their allies into gory bits.
I tend to think defense is pretty damned important, and when it comes to magic, fighters are pretty much SOL.
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Reckless Abandon sort of helps, but a high level barb is getting most of his damage from AoOs at full BAB (or full BAB -5 if using Dazing Assault, as he should be), so he probably won't need the help on attack rolls.
I actually tend to agree, here. Reckless Abandon AND Come and Get Me is silly, both increase offense at the cost of AC. Combining them is overkil and hits the point of diminishing returns...but either on their own is pretty awesome.
Witch Hunter...not everything has SLAs; and not every Barbarian wants to take on the massive risk that Superstition is.
It really depends on the party. If your flanking buddies with the Paladin any risks are pretty minimal.
And at CR 13+ critters without either are pretty rare. Significantly less than half...which considering (by my calculations) the Figher's only ahead by +1 to hit, and no damage, even without Witch Hunter.
Furious weapon in the long run costs MUCH more than the gloves of dueling, due to exponential price increase on further enhancing weapons.
This is undeniably true. I'm not sure if it matters as much as you're implying, though. It's a bit annoying, but you have more out-of-combat utility than a Fighter and better mobility by default and can skimp on those a little to help afford it.
As for defenses...his AC w/ CaGM and Reckless Abandon, if you want to include it, will probably be like 12-15 below the fighter's. That's crazy! He has a lot more hp IF you consider rage hp, but I wouldn't want to constantly rely on that shaky buffer zone to keep me alive...
That...assumes CaGM, which my build actually doesn't (being more Pounce focused), which strikes me as a very nice power potentially, but not a necessary one per se.
And it's only -10 with Beast Totem, and that only if you have both (which, as you mention, is unnecessary, pick one).
Superstition is only good w/ Human FC alternate. +7 saves (much of the will bonus, the one you care about the most, overlapping w/ normal rage b/c paizo fails at proofreading bonus types forever) is NOT worth having to save against allies' spells.
Yeah, it not stacking with the Will Save is annoying (though commonly house-ruled, often unintentionally, I suspect). Still worth it in many parties, though. I'll reiterate that Channel Energy and Lay On Hands work unopposed by Superstition.
I'll not deny it's better for Humans who invest in it, though.
With human boosting it to more like +13, it's worthwhile. Spell Sunder needs strength surge to work, and both aren't worth taking w/o rage cycling.
Not at high levels. CMB goes up way higher and faster than the DC for this on static stuff, and non-Draconic spellcasters usually have crap CMDs. If you want to use it on dragons or the like, yeah you need Strength Surge...but you don't necessarily need to do it more than once a fight, which makes Rage Cycling awesome but not necessary per se.
Your post confirms what I said...using rage cycling, at least, can make barb competitive with fighter. I'd say rage cycling and CaGM if you want to outright surpass him for damage, though.
I'm really not sold on the need for Rage Cycling to be on par with the Fighter. Hell, Pounce alone is gonna effectively increase damage output quite a lot. Full Atttacks every turn!
To surpass him significantly, you're probably right, though.
Surviving that keg exploding is possible with Max HP. 5d12(60)+5(Toughness)+5(Favored Class)+60(20 Con) = 130
Even with average HP, Barbarians can easily get or 200 Hit Points(technically higher with Damage Reduction) and still have a respectable Offense and Defense.
What is with your math? Unless you have house rules, it would be
Levels 12+7+7+7+7=40 *edit due to error*20 Con 5+5+5+5+5=25
Toughness =5
Favored Class =5
=75 HP. (85 HP when raging)
Asides from that, I did say 100+ damage, I don't have the exact number, it was probably a lot higher than 100.
Levels 12+12+12+12+12=60
fixed
Levels 12+12+12+12+12=60fixed
refixed, I derped on my math.
Someone direct me to where you gain maximum HP on levels. As far as I know, you are either getting the average hp (ave of 12 is 7), you are rolling for hp (unless lucky, ALWAYS ends less than 60), or house rule it to max. If your doing society, you only get average on new levels
Indeed, but he said "with Max HP". So assuming max HP, 5 barbarian levels = 60HP
Indeed, but he said "with Max HP". So assuming max HP, 5 barbarian levels = 60HP
I read it as you tried to get the most HP possible. Even then, the CON bonus was WAY off (20 con is +5, 34 is +12)
Barbarian gets 2 hp per hit dice, from con? I always seem to short change my HP gain somehow.
Is there a build somewhere showing the CaGM barbarian doing his crazy routine?
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Sorry, couldn't help myself.
I'm running a game where 2 of the players are Urban barbarians as found in ultimate combat. One of them also multi-classed into monk. When fighting they both what we call "Max-Dex-Rage".
Its silly.
Barbarians: fast, good skills, hit hard, d12 hit die.
d12 hit die? Now that's baller!
the thing with rage cycling, which at high level becomes a standard capability for any barbarian,
is that you make more efficient use of your abilities by NOT using it...
the barbs strenths are spread across both offense and defense... active abilities and REactive abilities/defensive bonuses. not raging off your turn (or vice versa) shuts off half your abilities, and even if your GM is generous and lets you re-rage the same round, that is spending 2 rage rounds per round.
i think there is quite a handful of rage powers that stand clearly above feats.
and even though they have half the feats, barbs can still easily pick up some good feats, that synergize with their rage powers. several rage powers do stuff that would normally take 2 or more feats to accomplish (usually not for the exact same effect, but giving you stuff that would need multiple feats to accomplish otherwise).
the barbarian does hit their peak around 16th level, their capstone is somewhat 'meh', so whether or not to take it to 20 or to multiclass is a serious option... i don't see the problem with that, and either a full 20 barbarian or a barbarian16/fighter4 are extremely viable and competitive. more importantly, between Core, APG, and UltCombat, there is now such a breadth of barbarian options that you DON'T need to pick the BeastTotem/SUperstiion combos that everybody mentions, there are other ones that work great also...
enjoy your barbarian!
I thought superstitious was just about one of the worst rage powers, since it works on your party too (this means no heal coming our way...) ?
If your cleric has nothing better to do than to cast a single-target cure spell, which requires a touch so he's also in melee, then you're pretty well effed already.
Channel Energy, OTOH, has no save for the healing effect.
No, superstitious is absolutely phenomenal.
Also, Spell Sunder. And Pounce, and Come and Get Me.
Basically the barbarian has the sorts of toys we all wish that warriors had had from the start. They remain relevant.
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Surviving that keg exploding is possible with Max HP. 5d12(60)+5(Toughness)+5(Favored Class)+60(20 Con) = 130
Even with average HP, Barbarians can easily get or 200 Hit Points(technically higher with Damage Reduction) and still have a respectable Offense and Defense.
What is with your math? Unless you have house rules, it would be
Levels 12+7+7+7+7=40 *edit due to error*
20 Con 5+5+5+5+5=25
Toughness =5
Favored Class =5
=75 HP. (85 HP when raging)Asides from that, I did say 100+ damage, I don't have the exact number, it was probably a lot higher than 100.
he may have been a diehard+ human alternate class bonus, gives you aditional negatives before you die. i think its class level x2 over your con in negatives.. or something like that. i was going to play that in one of my games, not the crazy exploding thing, i think at level 10 he had somthing like 175hp counting the negatives.
If your cleric has nothing better to do than to cast a single-target cure spell, which requires a touch so he's also in melee, then you're pretty well effed already.Channel Energy, OTOH, has no save for the healing effect.
No, superstitious is absolutely phenomenal.
Also, Spell Sunder. And Pounce, and Come and Get Me.
Basically the barbarian has the sorts of toys we all wish that warriors had had from the start. They remain relevant.
the issue im seeing with your assestment, is that the mage also cannot buff you. no haste, no enlarge person, no blur, no well anything...
you are a solo character, which you may be ok with, and i hate playing solo characters. the benefits dont outweigh the penalties imo.
Barbarians are crazy easy to play.
I didn't have to worry over building my current barbarian character to make him able to do what I wanted to do. I don't have to fret over feat selections and such. I'm able to just relax and focus on roleplaying.
Wish the same could be said for the monk. :(
+1.
In my current game I am playing a Barbarian (well actually Barb/Oracle multi-class going for Rage Prophet, but that's a whole other thread). There is a fighter also in the group and as the front liners we both dish out damage. He does smaller damage more often, and when I actually hit, things just die.
I should also mention that sometimes our dice are atrocious and then the cleric of the group takes us both to school
the thing with rage cycling, which at high level becomes a standard capability for any barbarian,
is that you make more efficient use of your abilities by NOT using it...
the barbs strenths are spread across both offense and defense... active abilities and REactive abilities/defensive bonuses. not raging off your turn (or vice versa) shuts off half your abilities, and even if your GM is generous and lets you re-rage the same round, that is spending 2 rage rounds per round.
I realize RAW you're correct, I wish they'd correct this oversight about ending a rage being a "free action." Rage is supposed to last 1 round. 1 round is not "end of your turn." 1 round is until your initiative count comes up again. If you follow RAW, where ending rage is a free action, and thus can't be done out of turn, it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to ever rage for only 1 round, unless you have no more rounds remaining. Any combat at all, if you don't choose to end it at the end of your turn, well before "1 round" has actually transpired, you're doomed to wasting another round of it even if the combat ends on your next ally's action right after. And that's seriously f***ing stupid. You don't like rage cycling, deal with it directly somehow. I personally think it's the only thing making 1/rage powers worth selecting at all... But don't go screwing up rage in every situation. If you can never actually get an honest to goodness "1 round of rage," you're being cheated. Plain and simple.
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Rage isn't uncontrollable. Whether you turn it on and off every round, every 5 rounds, or whatever, RAW you always are in control of when it starts and ends (unless it gets ended by outside forces, like calm emotions). Nor does it cause you to attack allies or lose hte ability to choose your targets.
It behaves nothing like "uncontrollable." There's a Wild Rager archetype if you want that.