Sunder a Natural Weapon?

[Salabrian]

Can you Sunder a creature's Natural Weapons (e.g. Claws, teeth, etc.)? I'm building a Sunderer character (for fun in a one-shot) and trying to figure out exactly how worthless he might be against monsters with no equipment.

[Icyshadow]

Breaking teeth and claws seems logical, as does hitting a tentacle hard enough to badly bruise it and thus render it unable to be used.

[Some call me Tim]

"You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. (PFRPG 201)"

Sunder is off the table against natural weapons.

[Salabrian]

Looks like I'll probably just have to seek a special GM houseruling.

[LeDM]

It sounds like what you're attempting could fall under the rules of a called shot. In some sense I totally agree that you *should* be able to sunder natural weapons, but in another sense it's not just a "weapon" you would end up sundering, but a part of the creature's body itself, thus incapacitating it to a larger degree than you would someone who can pull another weapon and continue fighting. Hence I think it would be better handled as a called shot, but it's not my adventure. ;-)

[Set]

Salabrian wrote:

Can you Sunder a creature's Natural Weapons (e.g. Claws, teeth, etc.)? I'm building a Sunderer character (for fun in a one-shot) and trying to figure out exactly how worthless he might be against monsters with no equipment.

Someone on the forums whose name I forget suggested allowing someone to 'sunder' a creatures natural weapons to give them the broken condition (-2 to attacks and damage), but no further.

The Swallow Whole rules might be used as precedent for determining the hit points needed to 'sunder' a claw or fang.'

[Some call me Tim]

LeDM wrote:

It sounds like what you're attempting could fall under the rules of a called shot. In some sense I totally agree that you *should* be able to sunder natural weapons, but in another sense it's not just a "weapon" you would end up sundering, but a part of the creature's body itself, thus incapacitating it to a larger degree than you would someone who can pull another weapon and continue fighting. Hence I think it would be better handled as a called shot, but it's not my adventure. ;-)

This reminded me of a game I played in where the DM said, "Fine. You can sunder his paw." The player said, "Great. How many hit points does his paw have?" The DM replied, "The same number as the monster has."

[Salabrian]

Some call me Tim wrote:

This reminded me of a game I played in where the DM said, "Fine. You can sunder his paw." The player said, "Great. How many hit points does his paw have?" The DM replied, "The same number as the monster has."

;D

[Goblin_king]

Some call me Tim wrote:

"You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. (PFRPG 201)"

Sunder is off the table against natural weapons.

But what of the Hydra? The most well known example of sundering monster "parts." If you can chop them up why not a tigers claws? I too have a sundering character and am treating natural weapons as if they were manufactured.

A hydra can be killed by severing all of its heads or slaying its body. Any attack that is not an attempt to sever a head affects the body, including area attacks or attacks that cause piercing or bludgeoning damage. To sever a head, an opponent must make a sunder attempt with a slashing weapon targeting a head. A head is considered a separate weapon with hardness 0 and hit points equal to the hydra's HD. To sever a head, an opponent must inflict enough damage to reduce the head's hit points to 0 or less. Severing a head deals damage to the hydra's body equal to the hydra's current HD. A hydra can't attack with a severed head, but takes no other penalties.

[Are]

The hydra has special rules allowing it, and only with specific types of weapons.

If you allow sundering natural weapons in general, why not sundering arms and legs, or even necks? Those are "parts" of a creature, or of a PC. And how would one repair a sundered natural weapon?

I wouldn't allow the sundering of natural weapons. If I felt particularly generous, I might allow the "no further than broken" version mentioned above.

[Whale_Cancer]

RAW, you can't sunder natural weapons.

The closest thing you can do by RAW is used a called shot from Ultimate Combat, but those are variant rules.

[Sembo]

I had a situation last week where this came up. Character (me) sets for a charge using a Nodachi which has the brace quality but not reach. I am charged by an enraged Wyvern. The Wyvern has natural reach due to size (huge) and the GM states that I cannot use my readied action against the Wyvern because of the reach limitation. I argued that I should be able to attack the creature's tail as it did charge me and used a natural weapon to attack me. We then looked up the sundering rules and found that natural weapons were not mentioned. The GM told me that I could not take my readied action and that it was lost.

I am not arguing with him I am just hoping that someone has come up against this and has some insight into a better way to do it.

I took the Lunge feat since leveling up in the last session to get around this annoying problem.

[Threeshades]

Set wrote:

Salabrian wrote:

Can you Sunder a creature's Natural Weapons (e.g. Claws, teeth, etc.)? I'm building a Sunderer character (for fun in a one-shot) and trying to figure out exactly how worthless he might be against monsters with no equipment.

Someone on the forums whose name I forget suggested allowing someone to 'sunder' a creatures natural weapons to give them the broken condition (-2 to attacks and damage), but no further.

The Swallow Whole rules might be used as precedent for determining the hit points needed to 'sunder' a claw or fang.'

Or hydra head HP. You basically sunder its heads if you want to try severing them.

[Quandary]

right. the hydra has very specific rules for sundering heads. tigers don't.
why can you sunder hydra heads, but not tigers'? hm.

note you aren't sundering hydra's NATURAL WEAPON, you are sundering their entire head...

=========================================

yeah, Lunge is a good idea.
note that there is a SPECIFIC FEAT that lets you Ready (only Ready, not normal attacks/ AoOs) an attack vs. an enemy attacking you with Reach advantage, i.e. with better Natural Reach than you, or using a Reach Weapon, and this Feat lets you attack them in that situation (even though you don't threaten them). with that feat you could sunder reach weapons, but not natural weapons since they can't be sundered (except hydras).

i am prone to granting everybody that feat for free, because it hardly seems overpowered, readying an action is already a gamble and it destroys your action economy for martials, and it doesn't let you take AoOs vs. them either, just Readies... so i would suggest you/ your GM also use that feat/house-rule, although that's obviously a house rule so can't be used in PFS. i don't really think it's worth spending a feat on, BTW, given the limitations of Ready, and simply the 'logic' of anybody being able to do this if they are attacked.

=========================================

sundering hydra heads is a stupid tactic anyways, unless you're a masochist.
just wear them down by kiting atop a moving horse, and apply whatever damage you need to actually kill them/shut off regeneration once they are dead.