Melee Touch Attacks with Magic Weapons

[setzer9999]

Can a magic weapon deliver its magical damage with a melee touch attack instead of a melee attack?

For example, can a +1 Flaming longsword be used to merely touch the opponent instead of striking them, and deliver its 1d6 fire damage but not its weapon damage for this action?

[Jiggy]

Technically no, but that sounds like a super-cool houserule to implement...

[Lokiron]

Be aware of the rogues' sneak attacks...

[Marthian]

Lokiron wrote:

The setup to rogue cheese if this would allow sneak attack...

If it was houseruled in, I wouldn't allow sneak attack damage. From my understanding, Sneak Attack targets weak points. It sounds rather difficult to hit a vital point if your essentially grazing it.

[Jiggy]

Marthian wrote:

Lokiron wrote:

The setup to rogue cheese if this would allow sneak attack...

If it was houseruled in, I wouldn't allow sneak attack damage. From my understanding, Sneak Attack targets weak points. It sounds rather difficult to hit a vital point if your essentially grazing it.

"Goodness gracious! Great balls of fire!"

[Lokiron]

Marthian wrote:

Lokiron wrote:

The setup to rogue cheese if this would allow sneak attack...

If it was houseruled in, I wouldn't allow sneak attack damage. From my understanding, Sneak Attack targets weak points. It sounds rather difficult to hit a vital point if your essentially grazing it.

Indeed. This needs to be clear is all I'm saying so the rogue is not disappointed when he's told he can't do it.

[setzer9999]

Thanks all! Good to know its not official... it doesn't explicitly say (unless I'm missing it) what a "hit" is (see the item description, it says it deals that fire damage on a successful "hit").

To get around anything too crazy happening, instead of just disallowing the activity during a sneak attack, I am going to allow this, but it requires a standard action to make this melee touch. Kind of like how it requires a standard action to use Vital Strike or Cleave... choosing to use a melee touch attack with a weapon that usually does a regular melee attack is a standard action in my house rule now. You can't do a full attack action of multiple melee touch attacks to discharge magic energy damage! :)

Also, yes, I don't think a sneak attack should EVER be allowed for a melee touch in the first place, this energy damage melee touch house rule or otherwise. I mean... otherwise, the rogue would even be allowed to literally just touch (with their hand, unarmed) an enemy and deal xd6 damage for that! No sir, sneak attack has to be a strike.

Basically, I'm just ruling that if a weapon has been enchanted with a spell, that it can discharge that spell energy just the same as if a spellcaster is trying to discharge a spell they have stored in their hand for a melee touch attack. Makes sense to me anyway.

[wraithstrike]

setzer9999 wrote:

Thanks all! Good to know its not official... it doesn't explicitly say (unless I'm missing it) what a "hit" is (see the item description, it says it deals that fire damage on a successful "hit").

To get around anything too crazy happening, instead of just disallowing the activity during a sneak attack, I am going to allow this, but it requires a standard action to make this melee touch. Kind of like how it requires a standard action to use Vital Strike or Cleave... choosing to use a melee touch attack with a weapon that usually does a regular melee attack is a standard action in my house rule now. You can't do a full attack action of multiple melee touch attacks to discharge magic energy damage! :)

Also, yes, I don't think a sneak attack should EVER be allowed for a melee touch in the first place, this energy damage melee touch house rule or otherwise. I mean... otherwise, the rogue would even be allowed to literally just touch (with their hand, unarmed) an enemy and deal xd6 damage for that! No sir, sneak attack has to be a strike.

Basically, I'm just ruling that if a weapon has been enchanted with a spell, that it can discharge that spell energy just the same as if a spellcaster is trying to discharge a spell they have stored in their hand for a melee touch attack. Makes sense to me anyway.

Attacks are assumed to target regular AC unless touch AC is called out.

[setzer9999]

wraithstrike wrote:

setzer9999 wrote:

my stuff

Attacks are assumed to target regular AC unless touch AC is called out.

I still don't see where it spells that out, but I would never even argue with a GM on it for a second if they ruled that way. I can see how it seems implied by the combat rules, but unless I'm missing where that is stated...

Under equipment the rules say:
All weapons deal hit point damage. This damage is subtracted from the current hit points of any creature struck by the weapon...

Under melee touch attacks it never really specifies "hit", "strike", or anything like that, but piggybacking on the description of attack rolls, you "hit" with a successful melee attack.

For the magic weapon, like a flaming longsword, it does not say you must "strike" your opponent, it says "on a successful hit". So, in my mind, if a melee touch attack can "hit", then you can make a melee touch attack with the weapon to "hit" but not "strike" your opponent.

Again, it would never fly in PFS or with many GMs at home either... and I wouldn't even think to argue someone else's ruling in that way. But I personally rule this is ok as a standard action. But, these are the reasons I decided not to bother with PFS and like GMing more than playing lol.

[wraithstrike]

Listed under attack roll

Quote:

Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee).

If you check through out the book touch attacks are always called out.

Otherwise you are making a normal attack

Quote:

Attack Roll

An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.