Those of you who have had bad experiences, do you think that you could change your mind if the GM was able to make sure that it didn't happen again or are you set in your position now?
Next, even if you have a confirm roll, this makes high level warriors fumble more than commoners. Also a Bad Thing.
How is that?High level warriors do more damage.
Also, I'm in the bad experience group.
Use logic to avoid loss of disbelief.
My strawmen can attack each other for milenia and never accidently stab themselves in what would be a heart.
The only weapons that a character could hit himself with are the nunchaku and the spiked chain. :)
The guy who pushed for his crit. fumble still doing crit. damage, then him dropping his weapon, now only plays DDO. He's a shut in.
With crits. and fumbles, I prefer to describe it based on the damage and circumstances. I often wrote on my character sheet that I tied my bow to a rope, then tied the rope to my belt. That way I could shoot, let go of the bow, and then draw my melee weapon before the enemy could close. If a GM is very fumble happy, I could do this with a main weapon.
Listen, an ax of Orc slaying is not going to do the bonus damage to a Dwarf. If the ax does 1-6 bonus damage to orcs, 2D6 on a critical hit, then it won't do orc damage to a non-orc. This did not slip by!
The only weapons that a character could hit himself with are the nunchaku and the spiked chain. :)Next, even if you have a confirm roll, this makes high level warriors fumble more than commoners. Also a Bad Thing.
How is that?High level warriors do more damage.
Also, I'm in the bad experience group.
Use logic to avoid loss of disbelief.
My strawmen can attack each other for milenia and never accidently stab themselves in what would be a heart.
You've never wielded a sword, quarterstaff, sling, dagger, axe, or bow in combat have you? I haven't either. I can say that I have hit my own leg with an axe. I have seen people cut themselves with knives. I have seen people lose control of slings. I have seen one end of a quarterstaff hit the ground between someone's legs causing the whole swing to fail and then the end that hit the ground to snap up into their crotch.
I can easily see other weapons doing the same. Also consider that it doesn't have to actually be the weapon striking you the same way it strikes an enemy. Simply hitting a large steel covered body can cause the weapon to vibrate in your hands causing damage.
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Those of you who have had bad experiences, do you think that you could change your mind if the GM was able to make sure that it didn't happen again or are you set in your position now?
I've managed to grit my teeth and bear it in mdt's game, but for the most part he just uses the dropped/thrown weapon option rather than anything damaging.
Higher level warriors have many more attacks per round. Sure you may add a confirm roll, but I assume that the Monsters ac keep pace with the increase in attack bonus. Thus a high level fighter should have about the same chance of hitting as a low level fighter on a equiv foe. Thereby with many many more rolls to hit, many many more fumbles. I have seen this, over and over. In fact, in one game the warrior-type asked for and got a rebuild, as this2 wpn style was fumbling so often it was like the 3 stooges.
Of course, but that's why you also add a critical hit mechanic. That casters benefit from as ittle as they are affected by critical fumbles.
Next, even if you have a confirm roll, this makes high level warriors fumble more than commoners. Also a Bad Thing.
How is that?
As has been mentioned many, many times in the thread, it is possible to remove this problem by making a given character's first attack in a round (or even a combat) the only one subject to critical fumbling.
The only weapons that a character could hit himself with are the nunchaku and the spiked chain. :)Next, even if you have a confirm roll, this makes high level warriors fumble more than commoners. Also a Bad Thing.
How is that?High level warriors do more damage.
Also, I'm in the bad experience group.
Use logic to avoid loss of disbelief.
My strawmen can attack each other for milenia and never accidently stab themselves in what would be a heart.You've never wielded a sword, quarterstaff, sling, dagger, axe, or bow in combat have you? I haven't either. I can say that I have hit my own leg with an axe. I have seen people cut themselves with knives. I have seen people lose control of slings. I have seen one end of a quarterstaff hit the ground between someone's legs causing the whole swing to fail and then the end that hit the ground to snap up into their crotch.
I can easily see other weapons doing the same. Also consider that it doesn't have to actually be the weapon striking you the same way it strikes an enemy. Simply hitting a large steel covered body can cause the weapon to vibrate in your hands causing damage.
I practiced kendo for 1 year and I never hurt myself with my shinai, not a single time. And I'm not someone who fights for a living. Now I did stretch a few muscles in bad ways while attacking, and that is the kind of fumble I'm ok with (1d2 Str, Dex or Con damage). I also saw someone dropping is shinai, maybe once. As for vibration hurting your arms after a parry, I would be ok with taking a low amount of damage, something like 1d3 + Str modifier (or 1d3 + Str modifier x 1.5 for two-handed weapons), but not full weapon damage, because you can't say it would be as bad as being struck by an opponent. You can't shoot yourself in the foot with a bow (bad fumble), but you could certainly focus to much on your target, becoming easier to hit for other opponents (good fumble) or stumble on a rock while aiming and moving at the same time (good fumble).
So I do like fumbles in D&D/Pathfinder, but only as long as they are implemented in a proper way (see my other posts) and remain somewhat plausible.
Those of you who have had bad experiences, do you think that you could change your mind if the GM was able to make sure that it didn't happen again or are you set in your position now?
Pretty well set; at least on the Critical Fumble Deck. A darn good GM with a darn good set of critical miss rules might get me to budge from my position on fumbles as a whole, but I find it to be unlikely at best. Strictly personal experience, but I've yet to see a critical miss system that is both fun and fair enough to be worth the effort of using, and don't have any particular urge to use fumbles to warrent designing my own.
I was only suggesting that any card that seems foolish should be pulled from the deck. If you can't see someone committing suicide with a greatsword or polearm, they can't really do it by accident.
As for people with no training hurting themselves, do a search on U-tube. Tosh.0 has some really nice footage of people getting hurt.
Goth, to be fair we aren't talking about untrained people hurting themselves. I would say that a base attack bonus of +1 or higher is "trained."
I was only suggesting that any card that seems foolish should be pulled from the deck. If you can't see someone committing suicide with a greatsword or polearm, they can't really do it by accident.
As for people with no training hurting themselves, do a search on U-tube. Tosh.0 has some really nice footage of people getting hurt.
Yeah, as a GM I would not be kind to a character who as no training in the weapon he is using if he rolls a fumble. Nunchaku, kewl but useless! :P
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You've never wielded a sword, quarterstaff, sling, dagger, axe, or bow in combat have you? .
I have, I am a SCA heavy Fighter. And no, things like hitting yourself are so rare you would have to have a nat 1 followed by a nat 1, followed by a nat 1, then confirm. Dropped weapons happen maybe once a tourney- that means a 100 fighters, fighting for 8 hours.
I found only 2 melee, 3 ranged, and 1 natural attack that explicitly states that you hit yourself. There are about 3 others for melee and ranged that can, but need not, be interpreted to hit yourself and I haven't ruled that they do when they come up.
So a fighter (standard array, Str 15, no feats, no magic items, no masterwork weapons), will get those fumbles 0.09% (9 out of 10,000 attacks) of the time in melee, 0.14% (14 out of 10,000 attacks) of the time with ranged, and 0.05% (5 out of 10,000 attacks) of the time with natural attacks. (I know you what the percentages mean. I put them in there for lurkers who may not know.) I did the math for every level and it is about the same. I only looked at the first attack. Each attack after increases the chance by 0.05% which isn't much.
Those may still seem high, but remember that I didn't account for magic items or feats. Simply taking feats like Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus will have a pretty good impact. Masterwork weapons, magic weapons, and attribute enhancers will also help a lot. By level 2, you could have +2 to hit just from masterwork and feat. That drops the specific type of fumble (for melee) to 0.07%. By level 10, you could be down to 0.05% with Greater Weapon Focus, +2 weapon, and a +2 bonus to your Strength.
These fumbles don't come up very often. If the situation doesn't warrant it, the GM should change the result: either ignore it or draw a different card. I have ignored or changed results that didn't make sense. There is a card that says a ranged attack ricochets and hits you. I had someone draw that while firing at a dragon that was flying off a cliff about 100 feet away. There was no way it would ricochet so I ignored it. If he was using a sling in a hallway, then it could be possible.
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Simply taking feats like Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus will have a pretty good impact.
Especially considering the optional rule that allows someone with Weapon Focus to choose your result out of two effects (three with Greater). I have used this optional rule, and it works wonderfully in both the crit deck and the fumble deck.
"You become entangled in your gears" - Critical Fumble Deck
This specific fumble makes a lot of sense if your character looks like a Wayne Reynolds drawing. :)
I have, I am a SCA heavy Fighter. And no, things like hitting yourself are so rare you would have to have a nat 1 followed by a nat 1, followed by a nat 1, then confirm. Dropped weapons happen maybe once a tourney- that means a 100 fighters, fighting for 8 hours.
You've never wielded a sword, quarterstaff, sling, dagger, axe, or bow in combat have you? .
Keep in mind that this is true in a very controlled fighting environment. Smooth floors, no blood, no serious panic (except if you think you might lose Crown, then you gain several more HP), and in even in outdoor melees, you rarely have to stand on slippery and bloody bodies or ground. SCA Heavy fighting is more of a safe and controlled game where certain attacks are simply not allowed, even though they'd be effective. I'm not saying you don't have a point, just saying that there is an argument to be made that SCA heavy fighting is not very indicative of a medieval or fantasy fight. The only injuries you ever really sustain are bruises from bludgeoning damage with very very rare head injuries.
I've seen dropped weapons in SCA heavy frequently enough that I don't have a problem with Critical Fumbles. Of course, it does seem a bit odd for a guy standing on flat ground with noone around him to fumble an archery shot, but I have seen broken strings, broken arrows (nocks), and other stuff like it.