In the Pathfinder RPG, gunslingers are a playable class. Clearly they are not in PFO (which makes sense, they were a little over powered anyways), but guns were available to all characters in Pathfinder RPG.
So, my question is what the tech level will be for PFO, and I'd like to know what it should be.
I can easily see PFO taking the easy LotR style fantasy world that has been used and over used(not to bash Tolkien, the guy was amazing). One of the things that always appealed to me about Pathfinder RPG was its Stephen King's Dark Tower-esk type look on technology, where there is clearly a medieval tech level, but the occasional arcane revolver makes it through. A fighter with a revolver, or a ranger who specializes in guns is one of the things that really made the gritty world of Pathfinder amazing.
I'm not saying that guns should be common place. They should be hard to craft, harder to buy, and some degree of balancing would be put in place to make it so some kid with a gun can't take down a level 20 fighter from a distance. But they should be an available weapon.
Also, what about tech level in general? Thoughts?
I would hope the tech level evolves with the game.
Obviously, that would be ideal. The problem is, while you can simulate a growing economy, it is really hard to simulate tech invented by characters, unless there is a mechanic for it, and that could be easily abused. So unless they release an update every once in a while that is "okay, you can forge steel now!" I'm not seeing how this would work. What did you have in mind.
Oh, magical laser guns = badass.
I don't think there would be a problem with having firearms and treating them like any other weapon, but I foresee them carrying special penalties.
Skill training to use firearms will probably be its own skill, treated as an Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
Firearms will have to be crafted using slightly more detailed materials than a standard bow or crossbow, but the components should not be outlandish to get a hold of. My Uncle Joe, for example, builds his own black powder rifles from scratch (a process that relies more on quality materials and accurate proportions than some other weapons).
Firearms, like bows and slings, will probably consume ammunition, and such ammunition will have to be crafted as well.
In Pathfinder, firearms had additional mechanics (namely, unreliability) that other weapon did not have to regularly deal with. I could see firearms as having a 1/20 chance of misfiring or some other technological impairment (which should be offset mechanically with greater range/damage).
Okay, cool. That is about what I was thinking. What about the overall tech level of the game?
Goblin Squad Member
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Seems to be about 15/16th Century. Guns and even cannons exist, but are rare and experimental. It is the last days of full plate armour, but both ar still around and used frequently.
It also marks the end of the coronets and landed barons and the beginnings of the rise of the city-states and merchant guilds. The Renaissance is on the verge of beginning properly.
Basically its the perfect time era (for me personally anyway) to set a game. I always loved the 'baroque' fantasy setting.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I missed the announcement which said that gunslingers were out as a character type...
Firearms can be balanced just like anything else. The problem is that balanced firearms tend to be much less cool than popular perception would indicate. And also that firearms aren't fair, because they are weapons and weapons are supposed to grant their wielder as much advantage as possible. There's a historical era when they were not always the best tool for the job, but that era pretty much ended with the development of the revolver, an easily carried firearm that had a significant refire rate.
I understand a lot of people really dig the SteamPunk aspect of it, and like seeing flint-locks, etc. But not me.
Let me clarify: I LOATH steam punk. To me, steam punk is the worst combination of jetpacks, blimps, shiny goggles, bad plotlines, and 14 year old girls trying to be emo. Not to offend anyone, this is just my opinion.
I think that Southraven really got the point across talking about that point at the dawn of the Renaissance, and I think that feel is more like what I would like.@DeciusBrutus: They are just going with the 11 basic classes that we have all seen before to start with, according to the blog. They said they would add classes from supplements later so my fingers are crossed - gunslingers are badass - but for now...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd prefer that the technology be kicked back a few centuries into the dark ages or early middle ages, a prequel to PF if need be.
Familiarity breeds contempt, and the closer the technology is to their time the more players complain about things not being accurate. So put them where things are foreign and mysterious.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some things to consider:
If you look at the world guide, most firearms are made in Alkenstar, which is several thousand miles away (from Mosswater) on a different continent. Of the guns produced there, 90% don't leave the nation. They are produced at a slow rate to artificially inflate prices. Gunpowder is described as rare and expensive (10 GP per shot). Guns can misfire, causing them to gain the broken status, and then explode if they misfire again. They don't really do that much more damage than a melee weapon, just have higher critical multipliers. They have shorter range increments than bows. They reload like crossbows. They require an exotic weapon proficiency.
The key advantage is that attack rolls are resolved against Touch AC within the first range increment.
Firearms have a place in Golarion, but one that requires a lot of dedication and upkeep. You can spend 50 GP on a great sword and be set for life, or spend 1,500 GP (probably more due to shipping and scarcity) for a musket of dubious quality, and a few hundred more for ammunition and powder.
It all seems reasonable to me, mechanically.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Seems to be about 15/16th Century. Guns and even cannons exist, but are rare and experimental. It is the last days of full plate armour, but both ar still around and used frequently.
It also marks the end of the coronets and landed barons and the beginnings of the rise of the city-states and merchant guilds. The Renaissance is on the verge of beginning properly.
Basically its the perfect time era (for me personally anyway) to set a game. I always loved the 'baroque' fantasy setting.
If it's really going to be 15./16. Century I definitely want to see fashion from that epoque. And pikes. And Landsknechts. Oh my, that would be damn awesome.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd much rather it be kicked back several centuries, to the early middle ages, maybe 700-900 ad/ce. Make it a prequel to PF P&P if needed.
Familiarity breeds contempt. I personally think players argue more about things closer to their own lives. I played Traveller at an engineering school; you'd have thought everyone at the table was a lawyer. (See various discussions on firearms and/or swimming in plate). So move it away from any semblance of modern life.
(Could have sworn I posted this 12 hours back, but I can't see it in the thread. Sorry for the double post if there is one)
Chief Technical Officer
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Pathfinder Online will remain true to the Pathfinder campaign setting.
While the campaign setting does include guns and even mysterious tech from a crashed spaceship, these things are generally present in specific areas, and virtually unknown in the River Kingdoms area.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Huh, that gives me an interesting idea. Since it would probably be far too difficult and resource-draining to expand the in-game hexes to cover the entire Inner Sea region, large patches/expansions could instead add new, distant regions.
The game-engine and other basics wouldn't change, and players could choose to start-at/travel-to the Mana Wastes, or The Lands of the Linnorn Kings, or Andoran, or Cheliax, etc. etc.
Alternatively very large and complex adventure modules could require you to leave the River Kingdoms in a similar fashion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personaly I generaly prefer game settings that are 11th-13th century tech. That said, historicaly, early gun-powder weapons were not overpowering on the battle-field until some centuries worth of improvements had taken place. Aside from the role of cannon in sieges...they were actualy more of a novelty then anything else.
Early gunpowder was notoriously unreliable due a rather complete lack of consistant standards in mixing. Add to this that the gunners themselves were responsible for controling the size of the charge going into the weapon by eye....and you often had charges that wouldn't fire, produced too little force, or produced such excessive for that it exceeded the gun barrels stress tolerances. The guns themselves often had imperfections in manufacture and were notoriously inaccurate.
Finally you had environmental complications due to try to keep the powder dry...and the matches/fuses lit while in the field.
Initialy longbows & crossbows were far more effective ranged weapons then individual fire-arms. It wasn't until there were significant advances in both gun design and in the process of mixing/manufacturering powder that firearms really started to come into thier own.
Even then, melee and other ranged based methods of warfare shared the stage with Fire-Arms for many centuries. The Bayonnet and Cavalry charge were still important elements of warfare in the Napoleonic Period...and melee combat was considered an important element in many civil war battles.
P.S. bit of useless trivia. The last recorded "cavalry charge" in combat occured in WWII, in 1942, when the Savoy Cavaly Regiment of the Italian Expeditionary Force with sabres drawn charged a Russian Motorized Infantry Regiment that was armed with mortars, machineguns and artillery. The Italians succeded in routing thier oppoents, killing about 150 and capturing another 900 for the loss of 40 horsemen.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Huh, that gives me an interesting idea. Since it would probably be far too difficult and resource-draining to expand the in-game hexes to cover the entire Inner Sea region, large patches/expansions could instead add new, distant regions.
The game-engine and other basics wouldn't change, and players could choose to start-at/travel-to the Mana Wastes, or The Lands of the Linnorn Kings, or Andoran, or Cheliax, etc. etc.
The Pathfinder Online sandbox probably won't ever broaden outside the River Kingdoms. For one thing, the River Kingdoms is roughly 300 times the size of the Crusader Road area—and that's not even including the vast Darklands beneath them; I just don't think we'll ever need to exceed that space.
More importantly, in-world continuity is very important to us. We've essentially carved out the area we're using specifically for Pathfinder Online so that it can be developed by Goblinworks and its players without anyone trampling over the things we're doing elsewhere.
Alternatively very large and complex adventure modules could require you to leave the River Kingdoms in a similar fashion.
We can maintain a high level of control about what the PCs can effect in the theme park elements, so that is actually one place that leaving the River Kingdoms may be a possibility.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah, okay, so PFO is definitely planning on lining up with both the world and the lore at large, gotcha. That's a large restriction, but one that will certainly engender some interesting and creative choices.
I forgot about the Darklands, and didn't realize that there was room for approximately 67,275 more hexes, just on the surface in the River Kingdoms alone.
We can maintain a high level of control about what the PCs can effect in the theme park elements, so that is actually one place that leaving the River Kingdoms may be a possibility.
Yay!
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Goblin Squad Member
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We've essentially carved out the area we're using specifically for Pathfinder Online so that it can be developed by Goblinworks and its players without anyone trampling over the things we're doing elsewhere.
And it should be really interesting to see the events that unfold due to player action in PFO eventually start showing up in the P&P source material.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's not steampunk. Phil Foglio is not steampunk. Eberron is noir, but it's not steampunk. William Gibson in his novel "Difference Engine" defined the steampunk genre and it's every bit as gritty and grownup as "Neuromancer".I understand a lot of people really dig the SteamPunk aspect of it, and like seeing flint-locks, etc. But not me.
Let me clarify: I LOATH steam punk. To me, steam punk is the worst combination of jetpacks, blimps, shiny goggles, bad plotlines, and 14 year old girls trying to be emo. Not to offend anyone, this is just my opinion.
Yeah, I've read Neuromancer. In fact, it's opening sentence is probably the most memorable thing I've ever read in a work of fiction: "The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." I don't remember it being Steampunk at all. Are you thinking Cyberpunk?
But what I was talking about was what WoW did with Gnomish Technology. I think of that as pseudo-Steampunk. And it involves guns, and flying contraptions, etc. And I'm really not a fan of that stuff at all, although I realize some people really are.
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The Difference Engine was the nominally steampunk book, essentially being a cyberpunk book with Babbage engines rather than computers. I believe the comparison to Neuromancer was just for the levels of grittiness.
Of course, nailing down what is/isn't in any given genre is an artform in and of itself these days...