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No, I do not have the right to ambush any one I think is following me. Neither does anyone else.
Your morality is not florida's legality.
A well trafficked street in the middle of the day with a lot of people milling about and a football jersey do NOT make for a reasonable conclusion of an imminent attack. A dark street with someone RUNNING after you does.
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stuff about the word "reasonable" as used in statutes...."Reasonable" means a reasonable person in the same or similar circumstances when used in American jurisprudence. Meaning that it doesn't just matter if the defendant felt threatened, but whether a reasonable person would.
Thanks. That is what I was trying to explain but failed miserably.
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To clarify, the context of my argument about seeing Zimmerman as a white person only has relevance to how the state saw him when deciding whether or not to charge him. If the police, or the prosecutor's office, saw it as a white man or as "one of their own" gunning down a black teen and were able to conclude from the evidence currently known to us, without forensic analysis, that Zimmerman was within his rights then we have a serious issue that needs exploring that seems to have a racial component. If not, we need some hard evidence that illuminates the decisions of the powers involved.
I wish people would stop saying the video proved that Zimmerman was not injured. The video does not prove that he was injured, but the lack of evidence is not the evidence of lack.
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I wish people would stop saying the video proved that Zimmerman was not injured. The video does not prove that he was injured, but the lack of evidence is not the evidence of lack.
It doesn't prove it, but it does cast doubt on the seriousness of his injuries. Well that coupled with the fact that the EMTs canceled the second ambulance because Zimmerman was not seriously injured. This would have been simple if photographs were released showing Zimmerman with a broken nose and a blood head...but there were no photographs. All we have is what Zimmerman said, a weak agreement from police (only that there was some blood on his head, and that EMTs didn't find any serious injuries. If he really wants to strengthen his case all he has to do is to release photographs. Hell I would have gone to the doctor, had an X-ray done of my face, and released it. I certainly wouldn't go into hiding for a month so that nobody could see my injuries.
So that means it wasn't about race? Because he is not in the klan?
Also, since that particular police department has run into race issues before, if this one turns out to be about race...will you change your tune? I am less concerned about Zimmerman's racism and more concerned about the police who represent the state of Florida.
I'm not going to play the race card on this, no. Not yet anyway. In the dark, hoodie up, how did he even know the kid was black? I submit that nothing changes if this is a white kid, except for maybe he uses a different slur (if he used one at all.)
I wish people would stop saying the video proved that Zimmerman was not injured. The video does not prove that he was injured, but the lack of evidence is not the evidence of lack.It doesn't prove it, but it does cast doubt on the seriousness of his injuries. Well that coupled with the fact that the EMTs canceled the second ambulance because Zimmerman was not seriously injured. This would have been simple if photographs were released showing Zimmerman with a broken nose and a blood head...but there were no photographs. All we have is what Zimmerman said, a weak agreement from police (only that there was some blood on his head, and that EMTs didn't find any serious injuries. If he really wants to strengthen his case all he has to do is give us photographs. Hell I would have gone to the doctor, had an X-ray done of my face, and released it. I certainly wouldn't go into hiding for a month so that nobody could see my injuries.
"Seriously injured", what does that mean? Life threatening at that point? How many Ultimate Fighters take ambulances from the fight? And I would consider many of them to be "seriously injured" during their bouts. Just because you didn't need to be on life support doesn't mean that you weren't injured.
"There are no photographs", I didn't realize that you had access to 100% of the evidence collected. Police usually don't put out all the evidence they collect prior to an arrest and charge, let alone a trial.
As for going into hiding, well if your life was being threatened and people were trying to find where you lived so they could tweet your home address in hopes that some unstable people would come and attack you, I think you might change your tune pretty quick.
And again, I have no proof that he was in fact hurt. I have no proof that he didn't hunt down the kid and shoot him when the kid put up his hands and asked, "Why are you following me?" But I also don't know what all the evidence and statements that the police have taken were either. I just dislike illogical statements as if people are some kind of forensic experts based on the fact that they watched an episode of CSI and a blurry video.
It is generally accepted that if a law enforcement officer is about to succumb to unconsciousness in a hand-to-hand fight, deadly force can become a reasonable option because of the vastly-increased likelihood that the assailant may take the unconscious officer's firearm and use it against them.
It is less reasonable in most other situations.
But in situations where the person getting knocked out does have a firearm, whether they are a police officer or not, there is GREATER danger than if no firearm was present at all, correct?
@ Duck...
1. Zimm was following Martin in a vehicle. At least according to Martin's girlfriend, with whom he was talking on his cell.
2. Zimm called an emergency line (411 or 911, don't know which) and was told "that won't be necessary" in terms of following/confronting the kid. That means don't follow, okay? It's not hard to understand, unless you don't want to.
3. Don't blame the victim for the very bad choices that were made by a would-be vigilante.
4. Zimm may not be racist per se, rather I think he probably has a derogatory comment in reserve for anyone who doesn't "belong".
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I wish people would stop saying the video proved that Zimmerman was not injured. The video does not prove that he was injured, but the lack of evidence is not the evidence of lack.It doesn't prove it, but it does cast doubt on the seriousness of his injuries. Well that coupled with the fact that the EMTs canceled the second ambulance because Zimmerman was not seriously injured. This would have been simple if photographs were released showing Zimmerman with a broken nose and a blood head...but there were no photographs. All we have is what Zimmerman said, a weak agreement from police (only that there was some blood on his head, and that EMTs didn't find any serious injuries. If he really wants to strengthen his case all he has to do is give us photographs. Hell I would have gone to the doctor, had an X-ray done of my face, and released it. I certainly wouldn't go into hiding for a month so that nobody could see my injuries."Seriously injured", what does that mean? Life threatening at that point? How many Ultimate Fighters take ambulances from the fight? And I would consider many of them to be "seriously injured" during their bouts. Just because you didn't need to be on life support doesn't mean that you weren't injured.
"There are no photographs", I didn't realize that you had access to 100% of the evidence collected. Police usually don't put out all the evidence they collect prior to an arrest and charge, let alone a trial.
As for going into hiding, well if your life was being threatened and people were trying to find where you lived so they could tweet your home address in hopes that some unstable people would come and attack you, I think you might change your tune pretty quick.
And again, I have no proof that he was in fact hurt. I have no proof that he didn't hunt down the kid and shoot him when the kid put up his hands and asked, "Why are you following me?" But I also don't know what all the evidence and statements that the police...
You see this is were things are muddled. He wasn't charged. Why wasn't he charged? Because he was defending himself. How do you know? Because he said his nose was broke and his head was bleeding. Can we see the photographs that show this, or the EMT report that claims he was treated for these injuries? No charges weren't made so that info is being kept private pending an investigation that isn't happening because charges weren't made. So how do we know this is how it went down? Because Zimmerman said so. Umm....
Also, he can still hide and still have medical reports about his injuries made to be released. The police need to justify their decision. If this stuff does exist then it would really strengthen his case and the public opinion which does matter (after all this might be where his jurors come from). If charges are made, and he goes to court, he is only hurting himself by not releasing medical records of his injuries.
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I'm not going to play the race card on this, no. Not yet anyway. In the dark, hoodie up, how did he even know the kid was black? I submit that nothing changes if this is a white kid, except for maybe he uses a different slur (if he used one at all.)So that means it wasn't about race? Because he is not in the klan?
Also, since that particular police department has run into race issues before, if this one turns out to be about race...will you change your tune? I am less concerned about Zimmerman's racism and more concerned about the police who represent the state of Florida.
He knew he was black. He told the 911 dispatcher that it was a black teen.
He knew he was black. He told the 911 dispatcher that it was a black teen.I'm not going to play the race card on this, no. Not yet anyway. In the dark, hoodie up, how did he even know the kid was black? I submit that nothing changes if this is a white kid, except for maybe he uses a different slur (if he used one at all.)So that means it wasn't about race? Because he is not in the klan?
Also, since that particular police department has run into race issues before, if this one turns out to be about race...will you change your tune? I am less concerned about Zimmerman's racism and more concerned about the police who represent the state of Florida.
And the teen knew Zimmerman was armed, he told his girlfriend that the guy was.
He knew he was black. He told the 911 dispatcher that it was a black teen.
So he identifies the kid as black, that makes him a racist? He calls the kid a name (maybe) so now he's strictly motivated by racial hatred? It's really just that simple?
I disagree.
If it was a white kid, then he uses another term and we get the same results.
And the teen knew Zimmerman was armed, he told his girlfriend that the guy was.
Now that's an interesting tidbit - is that proven?
And the teen knew Zimmerman was armed, he told his girlfriend that the guy was.Now that's an interesting tidbit - is that proven?
Indeed. I had not heard this.
He knew he was black. He told the 911 dispatcher that it was a black teen.So he identifies the kid as black, that makes him a racist? He calls the kid a name (maybe) so now he's strictly motivated by racial hatred? It's really just that simple?
I disagree.
If it was a white kid, then he uses another term and we get the same results.
I've yet to encounter someone who called me a racial slur who did not have some problem with the fact that I was of that race, however minor.
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He knew he was black. He told the 911 dispatcher that it was a black teen.So he identifies the kid as black, that makes him a racist? He calls the kid a name (maybe) so now he's strictly motivated by racial hatred? It's really just that simple?
I disagree.
If it was a white kid, then he uses another term and we get the same results.
Too bad I never said that. My argument is that the potential racism that matters would be if there was evidence of it from the police or the prosecutors office and that is the reason Zimmerman wasn't charged. All people want is to understand why he wasn't charged when it seems that he should have been. Why wasn't there a pending investigation? Why did it seem to be a done deal until the media whiplash? Is there evidence of systematic racism.
If Zimmerman's racist comment becomes more obvious that will only hurt him in court. As of right now he will not even go to court until a charge is made.
My argument is that the potential racism that matters would be if there was evidence of it from the police or the prosecutors office
Thus far, that doesn't seem to be case.
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And the teen knew Zimmerman was armed, he told his girlfriend that the guy was.He knew he was black. He told the 911 dispatcher that it was a black teen.I'm not going to play the race card on this, no. Not yet anyway. In the dark, hoodie up, how did he even know the kid was black? I submit that nothing changes if this is a white kid, except for maybe he uses a different slur (if he used one at all.)So that means it wasn't about race? Because he is not in the klan?
Also, since that particular police department has run into race issues before, if this one turns out to be about race...will you change your tune? I am less concerned about Zimmerman's racism and more concerned about the police who represent the state of Florida.
Really? I hadn't heard that. Either that kid had some balls to double back on his stalker knowing he was armed or it didn't go down like Zimmerman said.
I've yet to encounter someone who called me a racial slur who did not have some problem with the fact that I was of that race, however minor.
Low hanging fruit - meaning I don't like you and you're X so I'll call you a dirty X'er. I reality, if you were Y, I still wouldn't like you. I don't recognize you and you don't belong here, etc.
See my point? There is no proof (yet) that Zimm is a racist (though he could very well be just that), but there is plenty of proof that he is an overzealous neighborhood watch guy.
But it does seem that way to many folks because of the seemingly scat evidence to back up Zimmerman.My argument is that the potential racism that matters would be if there was evidence of it from the police or the prosecutors officeThus far, that doesn't seem to be case.
No, it's because people are insisting on playing the race card.
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Yes, if Martin came up to Zimmerman and asked "why are you following me?" and Zimmerman attacked him, then I fully support Martin returning force with force. The...I'm physically disabled (severe spine injury). No, I do not have the right to ambush any one I think is following me. Neither does anyone else.By Darkwing's logic she shouldn't be able to do much to protect herself.That's a complete distortion of what I wrote. You should keep a blog!
If the person who is chasing her pins her down so that she can't go anywhere and makes it clear that they will inflict physical harm on her, she's absolutely in her rights to return force for force. They don't have to have a gun for her to use a gun as long as she has reason to believe that she will suffer that degree of harm and she can't get away.
Martin DID get away. Zimmerman admits to having lost him even while he's on the phone with 911.
So my 110 lbs wife has to wait to be pinned by a man before she is allowed to use deadly force?
You see you drop words like "ambush" to describe what happened. Its a tactic you are using to force the debate onto your predefined playing field. We don't know that Zimmerman was ambushed. We don't know, outside of George's own testimony, that he was even double backed on.
Again I pose the question to you: If Martin simply approached Zimmerman and said "hey what is the problem man" and Zimmerman grabbed Martin or pulled his gun out...is Martin then allowed to use force? If so, why are you so comfy with Zimmerman's testimony?
In the example I gave with a woman being pursued, she would be with in her right to draw her weapon and ask her assailant to stop following her, if he doesn't she would be within her right to shoot his leg. That would probably stop him. If it didn't she can fire until he stops. Forensics will be able to verify or falsify her story.
What evidence supports that Martin attacked first?
Also here is the evidence that he didn't: No forensic evidence found on Martin's body that suggests that he was punching or in any altercation, Martin's body position, expert forensic testimony that the wintesses 911 call contained Trayvon Martin screaming for help and not Zimmerman, Martin's mother claiming that it was her son screaming for help on the recording, a 12 year old boy that said that police twisted his words and that Martin was the one on the ground and not Zimmerman, a witness who said that a teenager was screaming for help, and a recording that has someone screaming for help up until a gunshot is heard.
What supports Zimmerman's story? His own words, his father saying that the person screaming was his son not Martin, and 1 unkown witness with the fake name John.
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No, it's because people are insisting on playing the race card.But it does seem that way to many folks because of the seemingly scat evidence to back up Zimmerman.My argument is that the potential racism that matters would be if there was evidence of it from the police or the prosecutors officeThus far, that doesn't seem to be case.
No because nobody can come up with a logical reason why the he wasn't charged, why there was not a forensic investigation, and why there doesn't seem to be any evidence of Zimmerman's injuries. He was not arrested based on his own testimony. Why was that enough? If there is another good reason then it should be shared or people will keep running with the only good reason that they can see.
No because nobody can come up with a logical reason why the he wasn't charged,
Could it be due to the fact that Florida has different laws from other states?
Race, if it was a issue, was part of a larger problem. Zimmerman, by many accounts, was an accident waiting happen. That should be the focus here.
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No because nobody can come up with a logical reason why the he wasn't charged,Florida has different laws from other states?
Even in a case of self defense a homicide has to be investigated. A forensic team should have been called and photographs of Zimmerman should have been taken along with a detailed medical exam. Florida law does not say that the investigation is over the moment someone says "self defense". That would be absurd.
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Race, if it was a issue, was part of a larger problem. Zimmerman, by many accounts, was an accident waiting happen. That should be the focus here.
Sure but if it wasn't for the media supporting the narrative of the race card this case would have been closed. It is now being reviewed because of this and the police will have to defend their actions and Zimmerman may still be charged.
Even in a case of self defense a homicide has to be investigated. A forensic team should have been called and photographs of Zimmerman should have been taken along with a detailed medical exam.
I expect lots of things were done, that we don't know about, once the police got there. Right now, we're waiting on the state and it's special investigator. Let's hope they have enough evidence and feel that they can move forward.
/ a lot depends on how the criminal case moves forward. If it's determined to be self-defense, civil proceedings are sunk.
Did younot read the statutes I posted earlier? They are the impediment to prosecution, not some great white conspiracy. The state not only has to present probable cause that Zimmerman Killed Martin (easy enough), it is procedurally barred from moving forward unless it can present probable cause that it was not in self-defense. It is a high (though not insurmountable) bar to prosecution, higher than any other state.
There is no evidence to back up the claims that the investigators ignored evidence or twisted words, or had any reason to. There is evidence that they presented the case for prosecution, but were denied. There is no evidence that Zimmerman's father, a minor judge in another state, called in any favors or would have possibly had any ability to.
It's not a conspiracy. It's a poorly-written law.
I've yet to encounter someone who called me a racial slur who did not have some problem with the fact that I was of that race, however minor.Low hanging fruit - meaning I don't like you and you're X so I'll call you a dirty X'er. I reality, if you were Y, I still wouldn't like you. I don't recognize you and you don't belong here, etc.
See my point? There is no proof (yet) that Zimm is a racist (though he could very well be just that), but there is plenty of proof that he is an overzealous neighborhood watch guy.
Sorry, I just don't buy this. Agree on the proof of overzealousness, however.
Sure but if it wasn't for the media supporting the narrative of the race card this case would have been closed.
Don't give the media too much credit with the race card. A black kid gets killed, shooter isn't in jail, it's a knee-jerk reaction. It's like we're pre-wired to assume that race is front and center.
Again - the focus needs to be on why Zimm was armed, didn't follow police instructions or recommendations (whatever you like) and subsequently shot a kid who was just walking in the rain.
Sorry, I just don't buy this. Agree on the proof of overzealousness, however.
Then long live the race card. Hooray. :(
No because nobody can come up with a logical reason why the he wasn't charged,Could it be due to the fact that Florida has different laws from other states?
Race, if it was a issue, was part of a larger problem. Zimmerman, by many accounts, was an accident waiting happen. That should be the focus here.
One of my biggest concerns on this is that this could get turned into a states rights issue.
One of my biggest concerns on this is that this could get turned into a states rights issue.No because nobody can come up with a logical reason why the he wasn't charged,Could it be due to the fact that Florida has different laws from other states?
Race, if it was a issue, was part of a larger problem. Zimmerman, by many accounts, was an accident waiting happen. That should be the focus here.
Oh it's a state issue alright. You want to kill someone and claim self-defense, then FL is the state for you.
I hope that if nothing else, this forces the state of Florida to rethink it's laws. This kid needs some justice.
Sorry, I just don't buy this. Agree on the proof of overzealousness, however.Then long live the race card. Hooray. :(
My life experiences trump your "low hanging fruit" theory. Were I so naive as to think that people shouting racial slurs at me were attempting to befriend me in a roundabout way, we would not be having this conversation, I assure you.
My life experiences trump your "low hanging fruit" theory. Were I so naive as to think that people shouting racial slurs at me were attempting to befriend me in a roundabout way, we would not be having this conversation, I assure you.Sorry, I just don't buy this. Agree on the proof of overzealousness, however.Then long live the race card. Hooray. :(
Who said anything about befriending you? I submit that if someone doesn't like you and calls you names, then they don't want to be your friend. That doesn't automatically mean that they want to kill you or that they want to destroy your race etc.
/ people say lots of things for lots of different reasons
My life experiences trump your "low hanging fruit" theory. Were I so naive as to think that people shouting racial slurs at me were attempting to befriend me in a roundabout way, we would not be having this conversation, I assure you.Sorry, I just don't buy this. Agree on the proof of overzealousness, however.Then long live the race card. Hooray. :(Who said anything about befriending you? I submit that if someone doesn't like you and calls you names, then they don't want to be your friend. That doesn't automatically mean that they want to kill you or that they want to destroy your race etc.
/ people say lots of things for lots of different reasons
With this level of naivete, the race card will indeed be around for a very, very long time.
With this level of naivete, the race card will indeed be around for a very, very long time.My life experiences trump your "low hanging fruit" theory. Were I so naive as to think that people shouting racial slurs at me were attempting to befriend me in a roundabout way, we would not be having this conversation, I assure you.Sorry, I just don't buy this. Agree on the proof of overzealousness, however.Then long live the race card. Hooray. :(Who said anything about befriending you? I submit that if someone doesn't like you and calls you names, then they don't want to be your friend. That doesn't automatically mean that they want to kill you or that they want to destroy your race etc.
/ people say lots of things for lots of different reasons
So anyone who uses a racial epitaph, wants to kill and hurt every member of that racial group?
Good to know.
There's a lot of misinformation about the details of this case.
1.) The dispatcher did NOT tell Zimmerman not to follow Martin. What was said is "we don't need to you to do that"
2.) The 911 call is evidence that Zimmerman lost Martin and was no longer following him. See the transcript at 3:40.
http://phoebe53.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/zimmerman-911-call-transcript-tray von-martin/
1.Semantics. If the someone, not necessarily a cop tell you that you don't need to do something with the way it was said that means don't do it. It does not mean it would be nice it you did, but we can handle it.
2.This recording never made him sound out of breath. If you have another link to a better recording I will listen to it.
Whilst Zimmerman may well have shot in self defence, the only reason he had to 'defend' himself was that he went out looking for trouble, instigated it, and then killed someone when it kicked off.
He should be locked up because he is a menace.
By absolutely no definition of the law does suspecting that one is being followed grant that one the right to assault another.
If Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin after 2:28 on the tape (which I seriously doubt now that I've analyzed the tape), he is, at worse, guilty of being a dumb ass. He is not responsible for the assault which followed. So, if there was an assault, then he had the right to defend himself.
That stands particularly true since, according to the 911 call, Zimmerman had stopped following Martin.
A man is dead because, after Zimmerman lost him, the man doubled back and confronted him.
That's not smart. I know that, being 17, 'smart' is often not part of the equation, but just because somebody is being stupid doesn't make someone else responsible for their death.
Proof please(links will suffice), and before you bring up that one witness remember the cop ignored the lady whose testimony went against Zimmerman.
By Darkwing's logic she shouldn't be able to do much to protect herself.That's a complete distortion of what I wrote. You should keep a blog!
If the person who is chasing her pins her down so that she can't go anywhere and makes it clear that they will inflict physical harm on her, she's absolutely in her rights to return force for force. They don't have to have a gun for her to use a gun as long as she has reason to believe that she will suffer that degree of harm and she can't get away.
Martin DID get away. Zimmerman admits to having lost him even while he's on the phone with 911.
Really? By that time it is too late. I am only about 130 pounds, and if I get a woman, and probably some bigger men in a compromising position they won't ever get to use lethal force.
Would you allow someone to pin you before retaliating?
Zimmerman losing him does not mean he got away. It could just mean he lost him for a moment. You ever played hide and go seek as a kid?
I just listened to the recording... It's chilling. Zimm is convinced that he's seeing criminal activity taking place or about to take place. And yes, the derision in his voice is palpable.
I'm physically disabled (severe spine injury). No, I do not have the right to ambush any one I think is following me. Neither does anyone else.
So my 110 lbs wife has to wait to be pinned by a man before she is allowed to use deadly force?
That is not an answer to what was asked.
I'm not going to chalk this up to 'race card' as that card is divisive and takes us away from the key problems here which can (in my mind) be summed up as:
A poorly written law
Lax gun laws where a known-to-Police numpty is still allowed to have a gun (should there be some kind of psych provision/public interest laws brought in?)
Said numpty went looking for trouble whilst armed, found/created it, and then killed some kid.
Good work George "Lone Ranger" Zimmerman, sooooo much safer with guys like you around; but why are there so many guys like him around!?
At least I don't mind the Ninja - HE ISN'T ARMED!
We may not agree elsewhere Shifty, but I do see what you are saying with respect to gender. If Martin was a woman, many of the people calling for cooler heads to prevail might be very well calling for Zimmerman's head instead.
Which to me is the shame of it.
Actually the entire thing is a tragedy.
How many lives are now ruined because of this :(
It may be that woman's perspective that she was ignored. However, until we see the full report, we cannot make that determination. It is equally possible (even likely, given the chaos of a murder scene) that they were prioritizing the interviews, which she took as being blown off.
I would suggest caution before basically concocting a conspiracy or accusing the officers of corruption. Again, if they were so intent on not charging Zimmerman, why did they try to charge Zimmerman?
The simple, unglamorous answer is usually the right one.
It may be that woman's perspective that she was ignored. However, until we see the full report, we cannot make that determination. It is equally possible (even likely, given the chaos of a murder scene) that they were prioritizing the interviews, which she took as being blown off.
I would suggest caution before basically concocting a conspiracy or accusing the officers of corruption. Again, if they were so intent on not charging Zimmerman, why did they try to charge Zimmerman?
The simple, unglamorous answer is usually the right one.
I think some of the conspiracy is fueled by the dispatcher who asks "is he black or hispanic", like these are the obvious or only choices. That makes it seem like Zimmerman's answer (black) is some kind of expected norm.
I wonder if any of Martin's friends saves their voice mail?