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Today in PFS OP we had a situation where a NPC Wizard was prone in a threatened square. A NPC friend of his was 10 feet away in a threatened square. The second NPC five foot stepped to behind his friend and performed a Combat Maneuver: Drag on the Wizard and got the Wizard out of the threatened square by dragging 20 feet.
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
Source: Advanced Player's Guide.
You can attempt to drag a foe as a standard action. You can only drag an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. The aim of this maneuver is to drag a foe in a straight line behind you without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Drag feat or a similar ability, initiating a drag provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, both you and your target are moved 5 feet back, with your opponent occupying your original space and you in the space behind that in a straight line. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, you can drag the target back an additional 5 feet. You must be able to move with the target to perform this maneuver. If you do not have enough movement, the drag goes to the maximum amount of movement available to you and ends.
An enemy being moved by a drag does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Drag feat. You cannot move a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your movement, the drag ends adjacent to that creature.
I argued this was not possible because you cannot move and take a five foot step, or five foot step and then move because you trade your movement ability for the turn for moving five feet without provoking an attack of opportunity. I am interested on other peoples thoughts. Thank you.
Coriath:
You are correct. Drag has no text allowing you to break the general rule of moving after you have taken a 5 foot step.
What drag does is allow you to do is move, and take someone with you as a standard action.
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Why wouldn't it be a 5 ft step if he was not in difficult terrain?
5-ft step does not say something like "You can't make a move action to move" it says "you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance."
That clearly includes moving through the Drag combat manouver or any other way. You can't 5-ft step and charge then either or something.
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Coriath:
You are correct. Drag has no text allowing you to break the general rule of moving after you have taken a 5 foot step.What drag does is allow you to do is move, and take someone with you as a standard action.
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Why wouldn't it be a 5 ft step if he was not in difficult terrain?
I agree with the general consensus as well.
A character can move 5 feet if he wants to. In this case it would be to his advantage.
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Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
It is in the description that you can't 5 foot and charge.
** spoiler omitted **
It is in the description that you can't 5 foot and charge.
We know that, and we agree with you.
I was just questioning another post that said the npc could not 5 ft step, and had to move 5 feet instead which would provoke.
We know that, and we agree with you.
I was just questioning another post that said the npc could not 5 ft step, and had to move 5 feet instead which would provoke.
He is moving 20 ft as part of the Drag standard action.
Therefore he can't 5-ft step the same round, because it says in the rules "you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance".So the only way to move those 5 ft to be adjacent to the prone character is by spending the move action to make an actual movement. That type of movement however provokes AoO.
I said that already. That was in my first post. That is not what I am questioning.
At the beginning the wizard npc and the other npc are 10 feet apart. In order to get to the wizard the npc has to move(not move action) 5 feet in order to get to the wizard.
My only question is why would he take a move action when he can 5 foot step over there. The drag maneuver is a nonfactor because whether he moves(move action) 5 feet or does a 5 foot step he still can't use the drag maneuver because he has already moved.
edit: Quatar's post is what I am questioning because he gave no reason as to why a 5 foot step would not be allowed.
This has nothing to do with the drag manuever which we know can not be done legally in this scenario.
Ah I think I see what you mean. Drag requires you to be able to move normally still as a move action, it does not automatically give you movement as part of it. (I just read the text of Drag again, guess I missed this the first time)
The problem is the NPC in the OP did a 5-ft step, then dragged (and moved) the other NPC 20 ft away all in one round.
He did the 5-ft step to avoid getting AoO'd by the enemy next to him.
But thats not possible no matter if he 5ft steps or makes an actual movement, since both would prevent him from dragging.
Is that what you meant?
I guess HangarFlying fell into the same trap I did, and thats why he said it has to be a move action. Like this:
Move action: move 5ft to be next to your friend. Provoke AoO from leaving the threatened square you were in.
Standard action: Grab your friend and move away. (This is not possible!! That's how I thought it works, but it doesn't.)
Basicly to make a grab manouver you have to start your turn next to the target.
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If you do not have enough movement, the drag goes to the maximum amount of movement available to you and ends
This says to me that if you 5-foot step, then your remaining movement this round is now 0 and you can't drag.
I'm actually more concerned with using the movement-related combat maneuvers to move allies around and avoid AoOs. It's a clever idea, but several things about this are worrisome:
The CMB vs CMD mechanics assume a resisting target - how do they even work on a willing target, especially for the ones that get better the more you beat the target's CMD?
I'm not really okay with the idea of say, a monk, bull rushing the full-plate wearing fighter 20-50 feet closer to the enemies without using the fighter's move at all.
In the scenario from the OP, if the NPC friend had had Greater Drag, his additional expertise would have made the wizard's movement provoke? But because the NPC was bad at dragging, it got around all the real penalties of being prone - provoking, reduced movement, etc.
I see the arguments from immersion, and I'm grappling (hah!) with them myself, I just see this tactic leading to a dark thicket of bad things. I don't want to see these maneuvers suddenly used more on allies than enemies, just to get around movement restrictions and penalties.
Ah I think I see what you mean. Drag requires you to be able to move normally still as a move action, it does not automatically give you movement as part of it. (I just read the text of Drag again, guess I missed this the first time)
The problem is the NPC in the OP did a 5-ft step, then dragged (and moved) the other NPC 20 ft away all in one round.
He did the 5-ft step to avoid getting AoO'd by the enemy next to him.But thats not possible no matter if he 5ft steps or makes an actual movement, since both would prevent him from dragging.
Is that what you meant?
I guess HangarFlying fell into the same trap I did, and thats why he said it has to be a move action. Like this:
Move action: move 5ft to be next to your friend. Provoke AoO from leaving the threatened square you were in.
Standard action: Grab your friend and move away. (This is not possible!! That's how I thought it works, but it doesn't.)Basicly to make a grab manouver you have to start your turn next to the target.
I understand what his error was now. Thanks. :)
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If you do not have enough movement, the drag goes to the maximum amount of movement available to you and endsThis says to me that if you 5-foot step, then your remaining movement this round is now 0 and you can't drag.
This.
That described it precisely. It is using your movement pool, which after a 5 foot step is empty
Minor side note: The person doing the dragging still can provoke AoO's from movement. Only the person being dragged does not (unless greater drag).
Minor side note: The person doing the dragging still can provoke AoO's from movement. Only the person being dragged does not (unless greater drag).
Just wanted to point out that dragged ENEMIES do not normally provoke. There is no such provision for ALLIES and thus, they provoke normally. In short, this is not a good way to get your pal out of a threatened area.
I noticed that also. If the GM wants to extend that courtesy to allies he can, but it is not RAW.
In short RD is correct.
As someone has mentioned earlier, it's silly that the Wizard with a crappy CMB, low Str and no Drag feats, who may be one of the worst Draggers you can imagine, gets his friend out of harms way without having him provoke AoO, while the Fighter with Improved and Greater Drag, high CMB and Str who actually knows how to drag people, technically causes said enemy to get an AoO against his friend.
Just makes no sense. Aka, if using CM on friends, I usually would rule the AOO rules the other way around. (In this case the Wizard would cause AoO against his buddy, while the fighter knows how to drag and does not)