Hi everyone !
First at all : Please excuse my english, I am a french native speaker. Please feel free to highlight my mistakes, because I want to improve my english skills.
For many monks/years, I have rejected the all Great Beyond stuff. Not because of the ideas behind it, but because I am in love with Planescape. I discovered RPG with Planescape Torment and had the Planescape setting box before the Player Handbook (AD&D 2). I have a lot of original Planescape's material and all "planar books" of the third edition (manual of planes, planar handbook, book of exalted deeds, fiend folio, fiendish codex 1 & 2). For me, Planescape is jewel of originality and depth. So, for a long time, in my eyes, the Great Beyond has been a "Planescape of the poor", an unnecessary remake without the greatest stuffs protected by WotC's ID : Sigil (its Lady, and its factions...), githzeraï...
But, after 10 years of DMing in Planescape stories and the (almost) end of my two and a half years Planescape campaign (centered around The Great Modron March anthology), I was starting to think differently about the way to tackle the multiverse with players. Obviously, for lots of players, Planescape is mixing really too much things. Too much pantheon, too much planes, too much layers, too much philosophies to handle... I like it but I now understand that it can be sdometimes indigestible for players. So, now, I think I need a Planescape-lite. Maybe it's the time for me to move on Golarion's Great Beyond ? It will make the thing easier for explaining planar stuff in a campaign on Golarion. But... dilemma... I don't want to discard all my old planescape material..!
Several days ago, I finaly decided to purchase The Great Beyond Campaign Setting Book. Nice book, nice ideas in it. Much much easier to handle and to explain. Todd Stewart : thank you !
I am still reading it, but some stuff in The Great Beyond quite bother me. And furthermore I really miss several Planescape features.
So, I want advices/answers from Todd Stewart, James Jacob, or others, to put some aspects of Planescape in Golarion.
- The most important thing for me is to keep SIGIL and its factions (I think I will always play in a pre-faction wars multiverse).
Where can I put Sigil ? Above the Spire's end the Ossuary ?
I don't really like the OUTLANDS and now, the MAESTROM is everywhere, functionnaly replacing it.
Is the SPIRE a plane on her own ? With ossuary on the summit of the spire, rilmani cities on Spire's sides and Sigil above all of that ?
Is it important to keep AXIS near the Spire ?
And I want githzeraï cities (like Shra'kt'lor) and the spawn stone, with slaadi in my MAELSTROM. For me, slaadi lords used the stone to turn chaotic proteans in something more controlled.
Lots of Planescape's planes disappear in the Great Beyond, like all with a mixed-alignment (Arcadia, Bytopia, Beastlands, Ysgard, Pandemonium, Carceri, Gehenna, Acheron, Outlands). But are they importants ?
- ACHERON : It is a lawful neutral(-evil)plane of meaningless battles (or lost meanings)... lawful neutral(-evil), really ? Meaningless battles for me = Gorum --> chaos. Furthermore, Acheron has lost its main feature for me with the change of the orcs' aligment between 2nd and 3rd editions. So definitely, I can deal without this planes.
- BYTOPIA : The traditionnal peaceful labouring rural philosophy behind Bytopia is found in Erastil faith, whose realm is in Heaven. Futhermore, Bytopia involve gnomes' gods realms but Golarion gnomes are very different from D&D classical gnomes... not really compatible. So, no need for Bytopia too.
- GEHENNA is a different matter. Never loved this volcano planes but I think I can understand why it was created. I my opinion, I don't need a whole Gehenna plane. But I want yugoloths in my game - greedy and manipulative fiends, so I want a place where live yugoloths.
I am surprised with the location of Norgorber's domain. Why is it under Axis ? Do you think a place like GEHENNA willl be great for Norgorber portfolio ? Could we imagine a GEHENNA featuring Yugoloths and Norgorber's domain as a part of ABADDON (= GRAYWASTE) ?
- PANDEMONIUM : He is a plane of insanity. Ok, chaos, a bit evil and insanity... The Abyss fill most of the role I think, except for one important planescape feature that I want to keep : the Bleak Cabal (and its Madhouse). Can we imagine the PANDEMONIUM not like a plane, but as a one of the big Abyssal chasm, a border between the maelström and the entrance of the Abyss. A plane owned by the Abyss but nor really tainted by evil (but really tainted by chaos) ?
- YSGARD : I want to add it to the Great Beyond. I want to keep olympian, norse and egyptian pantheon alongside with golarion's one. And I want an Yggdrasil !
- ARCADIA : Arcadia is now a term to designate a Golarion's continent. How confusing ! --> I will banish it (as I will banish the term Elysium : for me Elysium/Nirvana is Nirvana, and Arborea/Elysium is Arborea).
I want to keep the Harmonium training camp and Heliopolis, the egyptian pantheon'god. That's all. I thing I will create a plane named HELIOPOLIS.
- CARCERI (= TARTARUS) : I like the idea of a jail plane. I want to have a place with evil titans and gehreleths/demondands that is not the open Abyss. For me, Rovagug's dead vault is even a part of CARCERI.Is it ok ?
- BEASTLANDS : A plane with petitioner with animals form, planes of nature, away from everything. I am hesitating to keep it. Does Gozreh can lived there ? If I do, it will be a neutral plane, and not a good and chaotic one as in the 2nde edition.
Furthermore, I want to add Regulus, the modrons' realm, under Axis. In this case, is it better to keep Axis near the spire or to make a whole plane with Axis+Regulus far from it?
Last question, I want to add MOUNT OLYMPUS, with the greek pantheon. But... where ? In the mountains of Arborea/Elysium (like in Planescape)or do I create an OLYMPUS PLANE ?
So, it will had to the Great Beyond :
- HELIOPOLIS
- YSGARD
- CARCERI
- BEASTLANDS ?
- OLYMPUS ?
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Here's a copy pasta of my hybrid Golarion / Great Wheel cosmology from my home game:
(Note: In this cosmology, the Astral Plane is sentient, and all the rest of the planes are spheres with infinite volume floating within it)
The Outer Spheres
Each plane is discrete, however since the creation of Outland, there are zones between the spheres. Thus, the traditional 16 outer planes of the Great Wheel can fit either in or between the spheres. Some planes may have multiple names and some may have not PF names, cuz I like the old names better. Some even have names from an adjacent GW plane replacing the PF equiv sphere's name.
Upper Planes - Angels typically 'run' these planes, and can be found on all three in abundance.
The Seven Heavens: Lawful Good. Home to Archons. Plane where Justice reigns eternal. Transition Zones include Arcadia (Lg), where sentient inevitables with good intentions go to become archons; and Bytopia (lG), where perfect beauty exists on twin realms orbiting each other.
Nirvana: Neutral Good. Home to Agathons and native plane for Angels. Pure bliss embodied in eternal peace.
Elysium: Chaotic Good. Home to Aztata. Freedom is the word of the day here, every day. Transition zones include the Beastlands (cG), where wild animals dance in bliss, and Asgard (Cg), where legendary adventurers carry on their heroic deeds.
Lower Planes - Daemons (AKA Yugoloth) roam the lower planes, rightfully (in their mind) claiming every inch their feet trod.
The Nine Hells: Lawful Evil. Home to Devils. Tyranny personified, the Iron Fist rules without remorse. Transition zones include Acheron (Le), the eternal battlefield of the Blood War; and Gehenna (lE) a volcanic realm of toture and misery.
The Gray Wastes of Hades: Neutral Evil. Native plane of the Yugoloth. The pallor of the realm and its desire for you to remain here forever are but a cover for the sinister activities of the Daemon races.
The Abyss: Chaotic Evil. Home of Demons. Take your worst nightmare and make it worse. Thats the Abyss. Transition zones include Carceri (cE), the prison realm; and the Windswept Depths (Ce), an eternal, malicious realm of chaos.
Socially Aligned Realms - aka not Good or Evil
Mechanus. Lawful Neutral. Home to Axiomites, Formians, Inevitables, Modrons and countless other super-specialized native races. Literally an overly complex, flawless, functional machine housing idyllic societies within its confines.
Pandemonium. Chaotic Neutral. Home to Proteans and infinite variations of other races. You will most likely go insane trying to grasp the concept of Pandemonium. It is THAT chaotic.
Unaligned Realms
Astral Plane. True Neutral. Home to Elder Titans. Infinite plane housing both reality (Material Sphere) and the Outer Spheres. Frequented by anybody using a teleportation subschool spell or power.
Outland. True Neutral. Home to Sigil. Infinite plane parallel to the Astral. Provides a place for the transition zones to exist between the spheres and houses numerous cities dedicated to one plane or another.
Material Sphere
Co-terminous Planes - These all exist in the same 'space'
Prime Material Plane: Home to mortal creatures of normal existance. Created by the Elder Titans and housing infinite planets within a vast reach of space.
Shadow Plane: Cruel mockery of the Prime Material where twisted shadows, corrupted by negative energy. Home to denizens of the dark and many undead.
Ethereal Plane: Faded reflection of the Prime Material where the dim glow of the Positive Energy Plane attracts both predator and exalted. Home to incorporeal undead, space monsters, and all sorts of other crazy stuff.
Dungeon Dimensions: A place outside reality. No god or Titan knows how it game to be, only that "Hybrid children watch the sea; Pray for father, roaming free. Fearless Wretch, Insanity. He watches, lurking beneath the sea..."
Energy Planes - These are within but without the Material Sphere, if you understand that.
Elemental Planes of Air/Fire/Earth/Water - Thats where the element comes from.
Paraelemental Planes of Ooze/Ash/Long List - Border zones between the Energy Planes.
Plane of Positive Energy - Place where pure holy light comes from. Nuclear fusion in stars creates rifts to these planes when the reactions generate radiant light. Light descriptor spells cross this plane.
Plane of Negative Energy - Place where pure unholy absent of light comes from. Darkness descriptor spells cross this plane.
Thank !
But you mostly have kept the Great Wheel's structure, you have just changed some names (Nirvana...)... like I was doing before purshasing the Great Beyond setting book.
I am looking for a way to mix the Great Beyond'structure (maelström between others outer planes / no outlands / Axis / Boneyard /Abyss everywhere like a shell) with stuff like Mount Olympus, Ysgard, Heliopolis, Carceri, Regulus, Beastlands...
I wonder if I make the good decisions doing this.
I wonder if some planes not present in the Great Beyond are still necessary...
Most of all, I am looking for a way to add Sigil, its factions and yugoloths (yugoloths are really differents from paizo's daemons).
I would like to share thoughts with Todd Stewart one this topic :)
But I accept suggestions from everyone :)
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Thank !
But you mostly have kept the Great Wheel's structure, you have just changed some names (Nirvana...)... like I was doing before purshasing the Great Beyond setting book.
This comes from me not liking PF's default cosmology at all, and it being completely incompatible with my home game's creation myths.
I understand because I was like this.
No answer. Todd Stewart and James Jacob don't like me. :(
My new cosmology is also a hybrid of the Great Beyond/Wheel, I plan to run a campaign there after we finish Kingmaker. The names of other planes don't matter much cause it will be focused on one city-plane, but I did make a new structure of 9 planes (3× rule of three). It's an alternate reality, sort of what would happen if Sigil opened its portals to Axis, and then the axiomites tried to conquer it, eventually both cities merge into one (in all dimensions, merging their histories), in addition they take most of Mechanus and the Outlands with them.
The shape of this city is wheel and axle, on one side are the living and axiomite spire, on the other is Pharasma's domain (she's changed into one of the Eldest), the flow of souls powers the cogs between two cities. Inhabitants and factions are also different, e.g.the dabus are a type of axiomite similar to moignos, and on Pharasma's side the psychopomps do all the work, there's 30 factions (Whispering Way and Diabolists are among them) etc.
I understand because I was like this.
No answer. Todd Stewart and James Jacob don't like me. :(
I've got a project due by next week, and I'm working against a computer meltdown that set me back two weeks. I'll get you a full reply at length when I'm not slammed. :)
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Arg! Post eaten! OK so here we go again!
I'm not Todd, but I am a huge Planescape Fan. There is a lot of similarity in the Great Wheel and the Great Beyond. Let's break down the Planes by theme!
The Planes of Chaos
--I'm the King of Vrock there is none Higher! Sucka PCs should call me Sire!
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Continuing the Planescape boxed set theme...
The Planes of Law:
--VRockwork Automaton
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The Planes of Conflict:
The Planes of Conflict:
The Beastlands, Bytopia, and Elysium - All three planes can be easily encompassed by Nirvana. If you need a way to seperate them use the River Oceanus as a metaphysical border and pathway to travel between them all as it is in Planescape. In face the Bytopia should really BE Erastil's realm (civilization and wilderness). Carceri, Gehenna, and Hades - Abbadon fills these three planes spots the same as Nirvana fill the goodly ones. Home to Ocean's dark sister the River Styx the balance couldn't be more perfect.
I like this parallel, and I probably would incorporate it into the Great Wheel/Great Beyond mashup in my home game if not for the fact that Nirvana, Bytopia, Abaddon, Tartarus, and the Grey Waste have already been identified as distinct planes.
In my game, I follow the idea that the Maelstrom is that from which all the planes arose and float like icebergs on an ocean. The notion of the Great Wheel originated in the Outlands, as the plane had a ring of gates that that were arranged like the spokes of a wheel. I've tried to keep most of the planes, but I have changed a few of them around.
Pandemonium is now a realm in the Abyss, along with the Grey Waste. The idea behind putting the Grey Waste in the Abyss is a result of how I read the description of the Abyss in Book of the Damned, Volume 2. The description made me think of it as the dark shadow of the Maelstrom, with both the Abyss and the Maelstrom churning out proto-planes constantly, with only a few of them actually stabilizing enough to become full-fledged planes (most of the "stable" proto-planes in the Abyss are stabilized by the will of a demon lord; these are the Abyssal Realms/Layers). Nothing is stabilizing Pandemonium, but by random chance it has never been consumed by the Abyss. The Grey Waste, which happens to be both a Neutral plane tainted by the Abyss' evil and a dark shadow of Abaddon, became the resting place of the Baernaloths, who, after creating the yugoloths, retreated into the depths of the Waste for reasons known only to them, leaving behind the ridiculously weak (by comparison) Baernaloths in Planes of Conflict as avatars and "eyes" on the rest of the multiverse (I described them as the tip of your finger breaking the surface of a bathtub of water: the creatures at the surface only see the finger tip but believe it's the entire creature). It's the Baernaloths who keep the Waste from being devoured by the Abyss.
Tartarus/Carceri I made a pocket dimension hidden in the Astral Plane, with only two entrances: Curst and a portal in Hades' divine domain.
Mechanus I reimagined as a great machine devouring the Maelstrom, created by the Axiomite Primus. In this version, Mechanus is always growing, as new gears are constantly created from raw chaos-stuff, the Modrons maintain the gears, and the Inevitables constantly fight back the proteans who seek to destroy it.
For Axis, I still place it as LN, but the description in Death's Heretic made me think of it as heavy on the Neutral, light on the Lawful.
The positive energy plane and the negative energy plane I identified as two sides of the same plane. I described it as a black hole/white hole (or a garden hose): souls fall into the center of the negative energy plane and are torn apart into their base "soul-stuff." This is then funneled through to the other side where it emerges as the energy that congeals into new souls in the positive energy plane. The fact that more souls are coming out of the positive energy plane than are being destroyed in the negative energy plane indicates that there may have been a multiverse before this one that was entirely consumed by the negative energy plane, and all the energy coming out of the positive energy plane is from that multiverse (meaning that anything from this multiverse that has fallen in has yet to reach the other end).
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As for Sigil (which I so eloquently wrote in my eaten post) I would still have the Cage appear above the spire on which the Boneyard rests or orbiting Groetus even. In any case it doesn't matter where it sits as the only way into or out of the city of doors is by portal.
I'd treat the Factions as something unique to the city and any enclaves they have in philosophically aligned planes merely be chapter houses or consulates like Pathfinder Lodges.
I'll get you a full reply at length when I'm not slammed. :)
Great ! Thank !
The Abyss - In the GB the Abyss appears as chasms and canyons among the other planes. I would treat this similarly to the PS Abyss' 1st layer, the plain of infinite portals. Arborea - in the GB Elysium is a exact match for Arborea. Treat things like Mount Olympus as godly realms within the overall plane. Simple. Limbo - The Maelstrom touches all the other planes and isn't very different until you travel a ways into it. This works a lot like the Hinterlands on the Outlands. Once you pass the outermost "ring" of another plane you enter the Cerulean Sea. Place your Githzerai metropoli and roving Slaad/Protean bands at your whim.
Ok with all this. I will let Mount Olympus in Arborea/Elysium.
Pandemonium - Honestly as much as I love Pandemonium I think in Golarion that the Dark Tapestry and/or the Plain of Leng serve as better dark realms of madness and insanity. YMMV.
Well, I don't know... Leng seems to me too aberrant and too hostile, even for the Bleak Cabal.... and I really need my Bleak Cabal. I guess I just want a place to put their Madhouse somewhere. But maybe I don't know enough about Leng to judge.
Ysgard - One of the two PS planes of battle (along with Acheron). I'd actually treat Ysgard as the realm of Gorum, the floating landmasses islands off the coast of Elysium in the Cerulean Sea of the Maelstrom.
As I want to add the pharanoic pantheon, the greek pantheon and the asgardian pantheon (like the one in Deities and Demigods D&D3), I think Ysgard is too specific to be in Elysium or the Maëlstrom and deserve is own plane. It has its very own identity : gods of battle and fertility only, Yggdasil, the Walhalla, Odin's palace, the ratatosks, bifrost... And I can imagine Nidhogg under the plane, in the Abyss, gnowing the roots.
By the way, I really don't understand at all why Gorum is in Elysium in the GB. Really don't.
The Beastlands, Bytopia, and Elysium - All three planes can be easily encompassed by Nirvana. If you need a way to seperate them use the River Oceanus as a metaphysical border and pathway to travel between them all as it is in Planescape.
Well, I understand why Gygax made the Beastlands. He needed a realm for his idealized nature deity, Elhonna and the fairies court. Now, we have the First World for the fairies. And I want a wild nature plane and its animal petitioners to be true neutral (as oppose to Nirvana and its Guardinals/Agathions).
So, the real question may be : does The Great Beyond lack a neutral nature plane ?
In face the Bytopia should really BE Erastil's realm (civilization and wilderness).
Totally agree. And as Erastil is now in Heaven, so I think we don't need a plane like this anymore.
Arcadia - not to be confused with Golarions western continent, the land of ordered harmony is not a strong candidate for full planehood in the GB. Likely a realm of the gods Erastil and/or Torag or merely a portion of Heaven
I'm agree that it doesn't deserve a plane. But... Where could I put the pharaonic Pantheon then ?
As for Sigil (which I so eloquently wrote in my eaten post) I would still have the Cage appear above the spire on which the Boneyard rests or orbiting Groetus even. In any case it doesn't matter where it sits as the only way into or out of the city of doors is by portal.
Idem.
Thanks a lot !
Mechanus - Axis and Mechanus are so very similar. I would merely have the 64 cogs of Regulus be a temple district to Primus staffed by the Modrons.
Mechanus I reimagined as a great machine devouring the Maelstrom, created by the Axiomite Primus. In this version, Mechanus is always growing, as new gears are constantly created from raw chaos-stuff, the Modrons maintain the gears, and the Inevitables constantly fight back the proteans who seek to destroy it.
I was thinking of something like this :
First layer : AxisSecond layer / under the City : a realm of gears, with Regulus and modrons
Tartarus/Carceri I made a pocket dimension hidden in the Astral Plane, with only two entrances: Curst and a portal in Hades' divine domain.
Curst, Hades's realm and... the Pit of Gormuz on Golarion ?
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Another thing Lev is that in Planescape the way Primes look at Cosmology doesn't matter. It's probably far easier for you to shoehorn the Golarion Pantheon into the Great Wheel that the other way around.
And it's not like the actual outer planes have defined borders like two neighboring kingdoms. To cross from one plane to another you need to use a portal, a spell, or a path (Oceanus, Styx, color pools, Yggdrasil, Mt. Olympus, etc.)
Planescape is all about tone and feel. Belief is power. Nothing will really change if you merely use Sigil as the home base of your planar based campaign set in the great beyond. If your players are finding the full PS setting too much then dial it back. They're stuck in the Cage without you giving them access to a portal and its key.
All the Factions still have their main HQ in Sigil, and merely have influence in other planes. For example the Fortress of Disciplined Enligntenment is grand building in Axis owned by the Fraternity of Order.
--Vrocky Balboa
Sorry King of Vrock, I was really busy last week.
I know and I am agree with everything you are saying.
However, I have imported Golarion gods in the Great Wheel for a long time but now I don't want to do that any longer.
2 major questions remain for me :
1. Could the Beastland be in the Fist World ? Feys are from this plane now, so does the Beastland have any longer an usefulness ?
I like the idea of animal-talking petitioners. But from the AP36's article, it seems that there are no normal animal in the First World. Are there ?
2. Could the Bleak Cabal have a High Quarter in Leng ? Reasonably ? Leng seem really hostile for me, but I don't know a lot about it.
And I still hope for a Todd Stewart's answer to all this. :o)
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Hi everyone !
First at all : Please excuse my english, I am a french native speaker. Please feel free to highlight my mistakes, because I want to improve my english skills.
For many monks/years, I have rejected the all Great Beyond stuff. Not because of the ideas behind it, but because I am in love with Planescape. I discovered RPG with Planescape Torment and had the Planescape setting box before the Player Handbook (AD&D 2). I have a lot of original Planescape's material and all "planar books" of the third edition (manual of planes, planar handbook, book of exalted deeds, fiend folio, fiendish codex 1 & 2). For me, Planescape is jewel of originality and depth. So, for a long time, in my eyes, the Great Beyond has been a "Planescape of the poor", an unnecessary remake without the greatest stuffs protected by WotC's ID : Sigil (its Lady, and its factions...), githzeraï...
Lev,
When I worked on The Great Beyond, one of the design goals was to have something in which you could play a classical Planescape campaign in Pathfinder, without infringing upon the WotC IP rights that they hold over that setting. It's inspired by Planescape's sensibilities and derives heavy inspiration from it, but it strikes out on its own and I really want it to be its own thing, enjoyed on its own merits and not seen as a second rate Planescape. :)
- The most important thing for me is to keep SIGIL and its factions (I think I will always play in a pre-faction wars multiverse).
Where can I put Sigil ? Above the Spire's end the Ossuary ?
I don't really like the OUTLANDS and now, the MAESTROM is everywhere, functionnaly replacing it.
Is the SPIRE a plane on her own ? With ossuary on the summit of the spire, rilmani cities on Spire's sides and Sigil above all of that ?
Is it important to keep AXIS near the Spire ?
If I was merging concepts from the two cosmologies, without needing to worry about IP rights and such, I'd include Sigil but I wouldn't pin down where exactly it was in the cosmology. It exists, it connects to everywhere by its portals, but nobody seems to know exactly -where- the City of Doors exists within the cosmology. It's probably best to say that it exists outside of the standard framework, but yet if you stand atop Pharasma's Spire, at certain times the shadow of the city's torus falls across the landscape, luminous when it interacts with Greotus's shadow.
I'd include the Rilmani as a native race to the lands surrounding the Boneyard, with hints that they have hidden cities dwelling out there (similar to the 'they're everywhere but nowhere, like the concept of the Breach in China Mieville's 'The City and the City'). Or you could place their cities within cavernous niches within the sheer walls of the Spire itself (which already had hints of previous occupation, perhaps predating Pharasma herself, with empty niches carved into the stone up and down its height).
You could include the gatetowns either as towns on the edges of the top of the Spire, or districts in Axis itself, or towns drifting within the Maelstrom borderlands in loose constellation to Axis.
And I want githzeraï cities (like Shra'kt'lor) and the spawn stone, with slaadi in my MAELSTROM. For me, slaadi lords used the stone to turn chaotic proteans in something more controlled.
I'd plunk them down right into the Maelstrom, possibly with a conflict between the Slaadi and the Proteans over the proper role of Chaos - an ideological schism at a deep level, with them tearing down each others creations, but probably not erupting into bloodshed like the proteans and demons.
Lots of Planescape's planes disappear in the Great Beyond, like all with a mixed-alignment (Arcadia, Bytopia, Beastlands, Ysgard, Pandemonium, Carceri, Gehenna, Acheron, Outlands). But are they importants ?
You could incorporate a lot of the features of those planes in their analogs in the Great Beyond. It's up to you if you want to bring over them to the Great Beyond plane, or those planes to the Planescape plates. Alternatively, have them as different planes altogether, each drifting as islands within the Maelstrom. Breaking the symmetry here wouldn't necessarily be a sin, if incorporating them is important.
- GEHENNA is a different matter. Never loved this volcano planes but I think I can understand why it was created. I my opinion, I don't need a whole Gehenna plane. But I want yugoloths in my game - greedy and manipulative fiends, so I want a place where live yugoloths.
I am surprised with the location of Norgorber's domain. Why is it under Axis ? Do you think a place like GEHENNA willl be great for Norgorber portfolio ? Could we imagine a GEHENNA featuring Yugoloths and Norgorber's domain as a part of ABADDON (= GRAYWASTE) ?
I love the 'loths. :D They would so totally not get along well if they lived on Abaddon with the daemons, so best to give them their own plane. They'd of course try to manipulate the daemons who in turn would try to eat them. :)
How about placing Gehenna as something like a moon, drifting in loose orbit as a plane between Hell and Axis, with portals found if you travel deep below Axis and then literally fall out of the sky towards on the Furnaces, or likewise in certain parts of Hell stepping into bottomless pits (like portals in Gehenna in 2e).
- PANDEMONIUM : He is a plane of insanity. Ok, chaos, a bit evil and insanity... The Abyss fill most of the role I think, except for one important planescape feature that I want to keep : the Bleak Cabal (and its Madhouse). Can we imagine the PANDEMONIUM not like a plane, but as a one of the big Abyssal chasm, a border between the maelström and the entrance of the Abyss. A plane owned by the Abyss but nor really tainted by evil (but really tainted by chaos) ?
Beautiful idea there, perhaps as the result of a protean chorus creating a beachhead into the Abyss, and something went terribly wrong, driving the chaos serpents insane, twisting them into now natives of Pandemonium (think linnorn versions of 3.x Howling Dragons). The wind is omnipresent, but the howling is both the wind and the screaming of the natives echoing -everywhere-.
- YSGARD : I want to add it to the Great Beyond. I want to keep olympian, norse and egyptian pantheon alongside with golarion's one. And I want an Yggdrasil !
I'd include them as different regions in Elysium (the great beyond one), especially since I wasn't able to give as much detail to that plane as I would have liked.
- CARCERI (= TARTARUS) : I like the idea of a jail plane. I want to have a place with evil titans and gehreleths/demondands that is not the open Abyss. For me, Rovagug's dead vault is even a part of CARCERI.Is it ok ?
Sounds good to me. I'd include the Prison of the Laughing Fiend as linked to it as well. (Tegresin the Laughing Fiend is pretty much a wink wink imprisoned 'loth in terms of attitude and desires).
- BEASTLANDS : A plane with petitioner with animals form, planes of nature, away from everything. I am hesitating to keep it. Does Gozreh can lived there ? If I do, it will be a neutral plane, and not a good and chaotic one as in the 2nde edition.
I'd include it as a part or layer of either Nirvana or Elysium (great beyond planes).
Furthermore, I want to add Regulus, the modrons' realm, under Axis. In this case, is it better to keep Axis near the spire or to make a whole plane with Axis+Regulus far from it?
I'd include Regulus as an outgrowth of Axis, rising up as a gigantic clockwork apparatus rising up from the Crucible where the Axiomites build their armies of Inevitables. Regulus and the modrons could be axiomites merged into the corporeal forms of inevitables perhaps.
Last question, I want to add MOUNT OLYMPUS, with the greek pantheon. But... where ? In the mountains of Arborea/Elysium (like in Planescape)or do I create an OLYMPUS PLANE ?
Either one could work. :)
Thank for answering Todd !
I really want it to be its own thing, enjoyed on its own merits and not seen as a second rate Planescape. :)
I understand. And that also why I want to accept it as a whole. I just want to add some old features that miss me : Sigil, modrons, asgardian gods...
but yet if you stand atop Pharasma's Spire, at certain times the shadow of the city's torus falls across the landscape, luminous when it interacts with Groetus's shadow.
Nice ! I will keep that idea... and it gives me another :
The light in Sigil increase and decrease mysteriously, reproducing a night and day cycle. Could Groetus be the source of this light and so this cycle ? (if Groetus is in orbit around Sigil... or the contrary).I'd include the Rilmani as a native race to the lands surrounding the Boneyard, with hints that they have hidden cities dwelling out there (similar to the 'they're everywhere but nowhere, like the concept of the Breach in China Mieville's 'The City and the City'). Or you could place their cities within cavernous niches within the sheer walls of the Spire itself (which already had hints of previous occupation, perhaps predating Pharasma herself, with empty niches carved into the stone up and down its height).
Exactly what I was thinking.
You could include the gatetowns either as towns on the edges of the top of the Spire, or districts in Axis itself, or towns drifting within the Maelstrom borderlands in loose constellation to Axis.
I prefer the latter : Maelstrom borderlands.
I love the 'loths. :D They would so totally not get along well if they lived on Abaddon with the daemons, so best to give them their own plane. They'd of course try to manipulate the daemons who in turn would try to eat them. :)
How about placing Gehenna as something like a moon, drifting in loose orbit as a plane between Hell and Axis, with portals found if you travel deep below Axis and then literally fall out of the sky towards on the Furnaces, or likewise in certain parts of Hell stepping into bottomless pits (like portals in Gehenna in 2e).
Not in Abaddon, ok, got it. I think I will go with this : an intermediary plane below Axis and above the Abyss, with Norgorber's domain on it. Would it be ok ?
It will explain why some say that Norgober's domain are in Axis' underground (something I don't like, because of Axis' alignment) and give a small place for the 'loths to exist.Beautiful idea there, perhaps as the result of a protean chorus creating a beachhead into the Abyss, and something went terribly wrong, driving the chaos serpents insane, twisting them into now natives of Pandemonium (think linnorn versions of 3.x Howling Dragons). The wind is omnipresent, but the howling is both the wind and the screaming of the natives echoing -everywhere-.
Oh, I really love this idea ! Really ! How can we call this place ? This "Howling Maeström" ?
And now, I hope to see a "mad howling protean" in an official book of the campain setting line !YSGARD : I'd include them as different regions in Elysium (the great beyond one), especially since I wasn't able to give as much detail to that plane as I would have liked.
Ok. But I think I will keep it as a separate plane in my homebrew games.
BEASTLANDS : I'd include it as a part or layer of either Nirvana or Elysium (great beyond planes).
Well, for me, nature = neutral. I guess some features of the Beastlands are now in Nirvana (idealized nature), others are in Elysium (no rule) and others are in the "new" First World (fairies...).
The more I think about this, the more I tell myself that I don't really need a Beastland...the modrons could be axiomites merged into the corporeal forms of inevitables perhaps.
I like the idea again, but only if it happenned eons ago.
Just another question : Where could I put the egyptian gods ?
Thank again !
I copped out, using the "Multiverse is infinate" idea. Mostly, when running Planescape, I assume that different Matereal Plane Worlds are influenced more strongly by certain deities and as such are closer to certain planes of existence than others (which explains different sets of planes for different things) but all are still connected by the three transitive planes. As such all cosmologies exist, and are maintained by the beliefs of mortal beings. A bit of a copp out, but it allows me to use material from any setting for any adventure.
I copped out, using the "Multiverse is infinate" idea. Mostly, when running Planescape, I assume that different Matereal Plane Worlds are influenced more strongly by certain deities and as such are closer to certain planes of existence than others (which explains different sets of planes for different things) but all are still connected by the three transitive planes. As such all cosmologies exist, and are maintained by the beliefs of mortal beings. A bit of a copp out, but it allows me to use material from any setting for any adventure.Thank you for thread-necroing this after so many years. I've got a Planescape grafted onto Golarion campaign that I've been slowly working out, and this was a great read I never would have found otherwise.
Your welcome, I like to think of myself as the Dustman of threads. Just because it is discarded does not mean its work is done.