So, a friend of mine brought up an interesting question that has caused quite a few empassioned responses in his gaming group.
What would you say if someone wanted his druid to build an airplane (complete with internal combustion engine or something of the sort)?
Would you allow it? Why or why not?
The druid should be looking at nature for his inspiration, not technology. This would mean finding/taming a large bird - heck, that's a whole new quest of its own. I'm thinking a large bird with a spell "Mass Reduce Person"...
However, I say whatever the druid wants to do is up to the druid. If the GM decides against it he needs to tell the druid that animals are beginning to shun him and his nature spells aren't working as intended. Get another druid to show up and destroy his project :P
Haters gonna hate, but players are the ultimate deciders of THEIR character - it's the GM's role to ensure that the world reacts to those decisions :> WITH EXTREME PREJUDIIIIIIIIICE!!!
Does the druid have a snake as an animal companion? If yes then maybe the druid wants to use Thousand faces to turn into Samuel L. Jackson.
Also what if another player wants an adamantine Toyota hilux would you allow that as well? Although that would have way too many hit points to be avialable.
More seriously Where is he getting fuel?
Let's assume that combustive fuel exists in the game world, and aerodynamics work just as well as in the real world. For the sake of this argument, an airplane would work and is entirely possible, just nobody's invented it yet. The question is, would you allow a Druid to invent something as intricate and technological as an airplane?
Maybe have them make sometihng like knowledge eginerring dc30 to invent something and can reattempt each level. Also depending on the rest of the tech level of the setting I would have.
Also can't the druid just level up and fly with wildshape which would probably be quicker?
Does the Druid have Knowledge (Engineering) 20? Is there anything other than player knowledge that would let you think a DRUID knows anything about an airplane? How would the druid know about the inner working of an Internal Combustion Engine?
Did you set the DC to create it at 50?
AKA,
He would not, could not, make a plane.
He would not, could not, that's insane.
He would not, could not, I.C.E.
He would not, could not, not with me.
I would allow him to make a Bird Golem perhaps, using woodshape to create a golem that can fly made from living plant material.
I would allow a wizard to make a Flying contraption based on Magic.
I MIGHT let an Alchemist do it. because an alchemist actually understands alchemical/chemical reactions.
Does the Druid have Knowledge (Engineering) 20? Is there anything other than player knowledge that would let you think a DRUID knows anything about an airplane? How would the druid know about the inner working of an Internal Combustion Engine?
Did you set the DC to create it at 50?
AKA,
He would not, could not, make a plane.
He would not, could not, that's insane.
He would not, could not, I.C.E.
He would not, could not, not with me.I would allow him to make a Bird Golem perhaps, using woodshape to create a golem that can fly made from living plant material.
I would allow a wizard to make a Flying contraption based on Magic.
I MIGHT let an Alchemist do it. because an alchemist actually understands alchemical/chemical reactions.
I am more comfortable allowing an alchemist to do this.
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Look up what it took to invent an airplane in the real world. It wasn't some sudden inspiration of the Wright Brothers who just whipped up some parts in a blacksmith shop.
There were literally generations of study and experimentation needed to learn about aerodynamics. There were literally generations of study and improvements in metallurgy to create an engine that was light enough to fly, yet strong enough to survive the explosive forces of an engine.
It's your game, do what you like, but it beggars belief that some druid is going to work out lifetimes of technological progress on his own overnight and create a workable flying airplane from technology that has barely managed to create functioning guns.
Oh yeah, is he a dwarf from Alkenstar?
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I once had a druid character attempt to craft a hot-air balloon. He never actually succeeded, because we weren't sure of the rules for it and the campaign didn't last long enough. Eventually I gained Wild Shape and just turned into a bird, and lost interest.
Building an airplane, with a combustion engine, would probably be an epic-level task requiring 18 INT and max ranks in Knowledge: Engineering. I can see how a druid might come up with the idea, after watching birds and bats and wondering at how they do what they do. He might even come up with a Wright-brothers chassis for it out of taut leather and lightweight wood, similar to a giant kite. But inventing the combustion engine?
I would rule that his flying machine either has to be powered solely by his own pedaling, like the da Vinci Air Screw, or he needs to outsource the engine design to a group of engineers. The Leadership feat may enable this.
Alright, let's say the combustion engine is out of the question. Let's say someone wants to make a Druid whose focus is building machines, whether they be clockwork machines, gears-and-pedals-operated machines, or just other feats of engineering. Would this conflict with the fact that the character in question is a druid?
The reason I ask is because it seems like one side of the argument (the anti-plane side) says that a druid should be forbidden to be interested, let alone take part, in anything as unnatural as creating a machine, while the other side (the pro-plane side) says that the faith of a druid, and any sort of vows or organizations thereof, are so vague and unexplained that there's nothing saying that a druid can't be a civilized member of modern society while still venerating and worshipping the idea of nature.
Taking that into consideration, what are your thoughts?
I can see a druid figuring out the necessary shape of the thing for lift -- given a high enough knw/nature check, really no problem.
With knw/engineering, I'd let him design it so it wouldn't fall apart.
However.
I just don't see anyone who's grown up in a fantasy environment making the jump from "I'll use summoned air elementals to lift it" to "I'll build a combustion engine." Magic is just too thick on the ground for people to seriously pursue mundane technical advances, imo.
Druids are supposed to view the world from a natural perspective, generally shunning civilization, technology and industry. It doesn't make sense in my D&D/Pathfinder world view.
A plane needs an internal combustion engine.
An internal combustion engine requires gasoline.
Gasoline requires billions of years of dead critters to build up.
How old is your planet where the gods created everything?
Here's my problem with this. The PLAYER knows what an internal combustion engine is. How on earth, in any way, could the CHARACTER know what that is? Hint: that's called metagaming.
I can see the druid watching birds and wondering if mechanical flight is possible. But the first thing he would think of would likely not be an internal combustion engine, anymore than that was the first thing humans on this planet thought of.
People tried all sorts of crazy methods before gas-powered flight, some died in the attempt, and I would expect this druid's experimentations to follow the same route of non-working, and possibly take his whole lifetime to work out, before he either had some small success, or died before that happened.
Incidentally, internal combustion wasn't invented for the purpose of heavier-than-air flight. It just ended up fitting that purpose (after many failures).
Gasoline requires billions of years of dead critters to build up.
How old is your planet where the gods created everything?
Doo dee doo.
Unless, of course, you have a different worldview and some research at your disposal.
There's at least 5 examples there of gasoline forming very quickly, well under a decade - and that's by CSIRO, Australia's national research facility.
Arguing realism in a game with magic shooting out of fingertips is also pointless.
Once again, please take internal combustion engines out of the equation, because that's not the point I'm trying to get at. The point I'm trying to get discussion for here is whether or not druids are prohibited from contributing to/making use of technology, and if so, to what extent.
No they aren't prohibited from contributing to/making use of technology.
Still can't have a plane though.
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I personally think that its fine for a druid to take the things of the earth and to fashion them into things that further the goals of the earth and nature generally.
If it was some sort of perfectly clean tech then I wouldn't think any issue would come of it.
There is nothing unnatural about a machine. Though I can see a druid being very unwilling to use the Eberron type of tech (i.e. kidnapping wayward elementals into permanent slavery to power your devides).
They would also be against the "coal burning" type devices we see in the early industrial revolution.
But absent magical slavery for power, or rampant pollution and the raping of the land to power a device, i can't really say a druid would have an "omg thats unnatural!" response to it.
I wouldn't be against a druid who thought that, but its also a far far cry from the "Undead are unnatural" crowd, too.
Keep in mind that Druids already use technology. The Scythe and the Sickle are both advanced farming implements.
And the fact that they are both made with metal (as well as spears, potentially) shows that while thay cant' wear metal armor there's nothing abhorrant in the use of metal generally, for tools. (i.e. technology).
One could quibble on whether or not a druid who is designing tech is revering nature, but that would really be an issue on what exactly tech they are inventing.
-S
Technology is the application of natural law.
Some methodologies wouldn't fit the druid mold (see Selgard's post, above, for typical "problem" technologic applications). But there is nothing INHERENT in technology that would be "non-druidic."
I'd say no to airplanes. They're far more advanced then i think golarion in able to understand. Especially when you say "it flys without magic" just on its own through normal aerodynamics. Magical flying machine? sure, not an issue. Heck, i recall way back in 1e in the adventure Dark Clouds Gather, they had a air/water magic vehicle that looked like a manta ray.
If you are looking tachno only tho, if the druid sank 10+ ranks into engineering (the level where skill boosters double, etc) That's a high enough investment i'd let him work out the basics for a hot air baloon that actually worked and had only minor mishap chances. (making it still far more dangerous then a normal one nowadays)
Just my opinion and thoughts (plus a few suggestions) on the matter.
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In my game... absolutely not.
It took centuries of work for real life people to eventually work out mechanical flight. Does he have the necessary historical sources to aid his design work? Does he have an industrial society to provide the necessary fuel and precise equipment?
Additionally, since it is a druid, I would think he would loose his link to nature by embracing such massive technology.
I can not even imagine a circumstance where this is not meta-gaming. I would advise the player to try Shadowrun or the soon-to-be-released Warmachine RPG instead of a traditional fantasy game.
BTW... if the game is not traditional fantasy game then ignore this answer! :)
In a game that incluides Animate Object combined with either Permancy or Craft Construct, why would you need an internal combustion engine?
Note, however, that neither spell is on the druid list.
I could see a druid learnig to make constructs to fufill this concept, if a flying device were needed ofr some unknown reason when he could just travel by tree stride.
I am now thinking an ornithopter from magic the gathering might be more likely with craft construct or something similar.
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If it's a general question of may druids be technological innovators.. obviously something quasi-industrial flies against most interpretations of what a druid should be.
However, crazy inventor types come in all stripes. I could see a druid walking in the shoes of Dr. Moreau.
Is this world of Warcraft.
A plane needs an internal combustion engine.
An internal combustion engine requires hi-grade diesel.
Gasoline requires billions of years of dead critters to build up.
The billions and billions of years of dead critters might be in error, either that or the oil covered moon Titan had dinos living on it...
The billions and billions of years of dead critters might be in error, either that or the oil covered moon Titan had dinos living on it...A plane needs an internal combustion engine.
An internal combustion engine requires hi-grade diesel.
Gasoline requires billions of years of dead critters to build up.
I think we are talking about on an earthlike planet as an assumption. I wonder if a druid could discover a specail mold that would make biodiesel or something when processed with farm waste. This would make sense for a dwarf or something. Although this does bring whole new meaning for quest for the sky. I still think it should not happen overnight.
The problem is not fuel, it's the major gaps that need to jump in conception from magic to powered airplane. Gliders had been envisaged for centuries including ways to make them fly. However the internal combustion engine was an entirely separate path which involved a lot of preliminary inventions before it. It can only arise from a mechanised mindset that had developed things like bearings, wheels, the steam piston, etc.I think we are talking about on an earthlike planet as an assumption. I wonder if a druid could discover a specail mold that would make biodiesel or something when processed with farm waste. This would make sense for a dwarf or something. Although this does bring whole new meaning for quest for the sky. I still think it should not happen overnight.The billions and billions of years of dead critters might be in error, either that or the oil covered moon Titan had dinos living on it...A plane needs an internal combustion engine.
An internal combustion engine requires hi-grade diesel.
Gasoline requires billions of years of dead critters to build up.
I think there is more than one problem in creating an airplane. If there is a Numeria like area in the world you try to find something like a crashed spaceship and after an adventure then find an internal combustion eginge on like something like a moonrover designed to go on more primitive planets and run on their primitive fuel sources. Although this is being very generous to the player and might get the campaign back on track. Of course put other reason so the other pcs are interested as well.
Druids are so dedicated to nature they gain divine spells from it. Protection of the natural world is paramount. So a Druid CAN be interested in machines but I don't see an Eco friendly way to peruse the interest.
If you go with nearly any other class I would go for it. Not airplane but hot air balloon sure.
The Druid/Nature card has been played... Moving on from that, I think the idea of mechanical flight would be most interesting to a Gnomish tinker.
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I agree with those who say druids don't necessarily have to be anti-technology. After all, wouldn't a self-propelled cart (say) release donkeys and oxen from a life of drudgery?
Not in games. The airplane was based on things that we have been building upon for years. For a druid or anyone else to cover that much on his own does not seem likely.
Not in games. The airplane was based on things that we have been building upon for years. For a druid or anyone else to cover that much on his own does not seem likely.
What about some kind of da Vinci flying machine?
Even Da Vinci never pulled it off.
Even Da Vinci never pulled it off.
Fair enough - but if he had been a Gnomish Wizard in Golarion, could he have done it then?
Tangent - sorry about the Gnome thing, but I'm really liking the idea of some kind of mechanical flight.
Well DaVinci put the ideas out there, but it was still a loooong time until Kittyhawk :)
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I guess I'll throw my two cents in here. On the topic of the general issue of whether Druids can be technological innovators (as deusvult put it), I am of the opinion that there's nothing in the Druid description that prohibits that. I understand that most people's interperetations of Druids show them as being treehugging nomads that live completely on their own and rely on nothing more than the wild to sustain and protect them, but I also recognize that that's only one interperetation (of hundreds, if not thousands). In fact, there's nothing saying a gnome, for example, can't be a Druid and a gnomish tinker at the same time. There's nothing prohibiting a Druid from spending every single skill point in skills like Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering or Profession: Blacksmith or anything of the sort. (In fact, there's nothing stopping a druid from being the head of a multinational corporation if the player was able to make it work.) I understand that Druids essentially worship nature, to the extent that a Cleric worships their deity, but just as how Clerics can be of all different faiths, I feel that Druids should be able to be of all different faiths as well (especially considering the diametrically opposed alignments possible for Druids)- I see nothing inherently unnatural about civilization or invention (to an extent), so I see nothing wrong with some Druids being completely devoted to furthering civilization and invention while still worshipping and respecting nature.
(I would, of course, consider these acting against the norm, but I see no problem with a player playing a Druid that goes against the Druidic norms- in fact, it would provide great roleplaying opportunities whenever he's confronted by any of his brethren that see his devotion to technology as completely heretical, and they spend all of their free time trying to figure out just how in the world he is still granted spells when his views vary so much from their own.)
I'm not part of the player in question's group, but I've had various (small-scale) discussions with some of the people in the group, and so far it seems like everyone except this particular player are of the opinion that a Druid should, in no way whatsoever, do anything to further the cause of civilization and/or technology. (One player even went so far as to say that he was appalled by the concept of a Druid taking classes to learn about engineering, saying that such a concept of a class or school was the complete antithesis of what he considered a Druid.) I even pointed out the fact that the plane of Mechanus exists in most D&D cosmologies- a plane where the majority of its native beings are clockwork constructs, and are- by definition- just as natural as any creatures living on the material plane- but no dice. (The aforementioned anti-school player's exact words to me, minus some censorship, "Bulls#!t and f@&k your Mechanus.")
So, anyway, that's my thoughts on the matter. If a player can give me a good reason why his Druid should be able to invent a machine, and he can back it up with good enough skill rolls and the money it takes to develop something like that, I say go for it. (Yes, that includes something as modern as an airplane with an internal combustion engine, but of course the player would have to rationalize the steps leading up to it and what he is using as a fuel source, where he got the idea, etc.- not to mention some pretty ridiculous skill checks.)
Oh, and for the record, the player I mentioned in my first post eventually just decided to re-make his character as a Wizard, and nobody had any problem with his plan anymore. So... YMMV.
Even Da Vinci never pulled it off.Fair enough - but if he had been a Gnomish Wizard in Golarion, could he have done it then?
Tangent - sorry about the Gnome thing, but I'm really liking the idea of some kind of mechanical flight.
No he wouldn't.
Hard science as "factual science based on logic and experimental verification" is not appearant in Golarion so far.
I ) Aerodynamic Flight (pressure differential on wing) vs Birdflight (air displacement by patterned wing movement ) : two totally differenr principles, so even if the druid had a profound understanding of birdflight, it would not help him. (JerryWright307 beat me to this, thanks for the concise summary)
II ) Powersource : Internal combustion engines are the end-product of a 200 year long process of studying power generation, material development, advanced tool-making and -design, through experimental testing (expensive) of scientific theorems and coordinating all the logical conclusions into a complex greater whole. Have fun on the chemistry (is that even invented in Golarion ? I mean, as "distinct" from sympathetic alchemy...which is something entriely different) and production of fuel from crude oil. Or developing power lathes and alloys for them to precisely cut grooves, pistons, axles, bearings crankshafts... besides the required mechanical forges and high-tension alloys.
III) Nevermind the development of an actual propeller ( shamelessly adapted from advances in industrial shipbuilding in mid-19th century).. no steam ships in Golarion, no adaption of the "archimedian screw"...in itself a product of scientif and for its period highly advanced mathematical principles... oh.. and surviving learning "controlled" flight, or rather the crashes. Ever wondered how many "flight pioneers" persihed during "testflights" (starting with Icarus).
IV ) As for "daVinci" : yeah most of his designs look nice and beautiful on paper, but are strictly dysfunctional in reality, due to problems of structural support, material density (and hence, weight) and torsion and simply no idea of the power requirements involved and how to produce them. Nevermind lacking advanced alloys and materials... While TV-Shows love daVinci, the actual "science" is shoddy.
All of the above : do not point it out to the player (how would the character know), but keep the list of massive obstacles ready for reference. As long as he enjoys the roleplaying trying to build the apparatus and it not getting in the way of everybody else's fun....
Overall, it should be absolutely beyond the means, and probably the imagination of a character in Golarion. That includes Abadar^^
as a final thought : IF (should be one of the biggest IFs ever ) he actually pulls it off... have him be "molested" on the maiden flight by a short sighted, huge, confused but utterly ahem.... "raunchy" dragon who assumes the sulphurous, noisome huge machine is a viable partner for reproduction and offspring. You know... mid-air wrangling for supremacy, displays of affection like "nudging"...
Fantsay airspace : the most dangerous frontier ! =D
...A lot of cool science and engineering stuff.
I mean, well, okay. :(
All of the above : do not point it out to the player (how would the character know), but keep the list of massive obstacles ready for reference. As long as he enjoys the roleplaying trying to build the apparatus and it not getting in the way of everybody else's fun....
Overall, it should be absolutely beyond the means, and probably the imagination of a character in Golarion. That includes Abadar^^
Hmm. Now I'm intrigued. Why do you say it should be absolutely beyond the means and imagination of a character in Golarion? Is that just on principle? It certainly isn't a balance issue, nor would it upset any sort of economy or technological barriers, considering the fact that it would be completely obsolete compared to any of the dozens of magical means of doing the exact same thing. I mean, it's like someone creating a clockwork calculator today- someone's done exactly that (it was invented back during WWII, if I'm not mistaken), and while it's a neat concept, it serves no use beyond novelty considering how easily and cheaply electronic calculators can be made (that calculate hundreds of times faster and can do far, far more than simply add, subtract, multiply, and divide).
(Oh, and for the record, the player in question is in Greyhawk, as this was for a 3.5 game. But carry on.)
But I am curious. Do you just say it's absolutely beyond the means or imagination of any character in Golarion because you're trying to maintain a realistic setting? Or do you think it would in any way upset the balance or technological level of the Pathfinder game as we know it?