I would like to know where specifically it says I cannot perform a specific attack that says "during a standard action" during a Full Round Action instead?
I grow more and more frustrated with 3rd-4th editions.
Ex. Manyshot. It says it can be done during a Standard Action. Great, I can move and use it in the same turn.
If I choose not to move, my Standard Action suddenly becomes a Full Round Action. I can choose to attack as if I had moved and just attack once, but if I am a Fighter or Ranger with multiple attacks per round, of course I'm going to attack as often as I am allowed.
As long as I apply the penalty of using Manyshot, I don't see why I can't use it during a Full Round Action.
Furthermore, the Rapid Shot grants you an additional shot during that Full Round Action. It should have *nothing* to do with Manyshot.
Where does it say it can't stack? I see so many people saying they don't because you can't use a Standard Action during a Full Round Attack, but I have never read this *anywhere* in *any edition*. If someone can back this up with the rule, I will be quite happy.
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I would like to know where specifically it says I cannot perform a specific attack that says "during a standard action" during a Full Round Action instead?I grow more and more frustrated with 3rd-4th editions.
Ex. Manyshot. It says it can be done during a Standard Action. Great, I can move and use it in the same turn.
If I choose not to move, my Standard Action suddenly becomes a Full Round Action. I can choose to attack as if I had moved and just attack once, but if I am a Fighter or Ranger with multiple attacks per round, of course I'm going to attack as often as I am allowed.
As long as I apply the penalty of using Manyshot, I don't see why I can't use it during a Full Round Action.
Furthermore, the Rapid Shot grants you an additional shot during that Full Round Action. It should have *nothing* to do with Manyshot.
Where does it say it can't stack? I see so many people saying they don't because you can't use a Standard Action during a Full Round Attack, but I have never read this *anywhere* in *any edition*. If someone can back this up with the rule, I will be quite happy.
Whoever you're learning the rules from, stop. Read them for yourself, because the person teaching you is unbelievably wrong.
Manyshot only works during a full-attack (which is a full-round action), not as a standard action. So as your own logic tells you, you get your extra arrows when you spend extra time, not the other way around.
Same with Rapid Shot.
You can use both in the same full-attack.
Manyshot has no penalty.
That make you feel better? :)
Action Types are separated by their very nature--i.e. they are different actions. You can take a Standard and Move Action, two Move Actions, or a Full-Round Action (plus Free/Swift/Immediate but those are irrelevant to the issue at hand). Specifically, "In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action." Choosing not to move does not turn a Standard Action into a Full-Round Action.
For Manyshot, it states "When making a full-attack action with a bow" and for Rapid Shot it states "When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon." So, as a bow is a ranged weapon, any character with both feats making a full-attack action with a bow can indeed combine the feats.
So, I'm a bit confused as to what the actual issues is for your situation.
EDIT: And as Jiggy notes, whoever is teaching you this is not a realiable source...
Whoever you're learning the rules from, stop. Read them for yourself, because the person teaching you is unbelievably wrong.Manyshot only works during a full-attack (which is a full-round action), not as a standard action. So as your own logic tells you, you get your extra arrows when you spend extra time, not the other way around.
Same with Rapid Shot.
You can use both in the same full-attack.
Manyshot has no penalty.
That make you feel better? :)
I would like an answer without the sarcasm.
For Manyshot, it states "When making a full-attack action with a bow" and for Rapid Shot it states "When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon." So, as a bow is a ranged weapon, any character with both feats making a full-attack action with a bow can indeed combine the feats.So, I'm a bit confused as to what the actual issues is for your situation.
Manyshot
"As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll to determine success and deal damage normally."
My problem is that I am constantly told that because it says "Standard Action" I am not allowed to use it during a Full Round Action. I just don't see how I can use some attack during a turn in which I could attack and move, but I can't use the *same attack* if I just stand still during a Full-Round Attack.
Where are you reading that? This is a direct quote from the Paizo Reference Document (emphasis mine):
Manyshot (Combat)
You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.
I'll need a different example to understand the issue, because Manyshot cannot be used as a Standard Action.
I would like an answer without the sarcasm.Sorry, there was no sarcasm intended in my post.
Then I apologize. It sounded like you were patronizing a bit, but that was my mistake.
Manyshot has a -4 penalty when you first get it, -6 when you hit high enough BAB that grants 3 arrows, and -8 when you get 4 eventually.
It says in 3.5 PHB "As a standard action" under the Benefit of Manyshot.
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Wait, crap, I totally missed that this was in the 3.5 section of the boards. I just checked, and apparently the 3.5 version was waaaaay different from Pathfinder.
Cripes. Sorry for the misinformation, 3DArtwork. No wonder you thought I was being stupid.
I guess the only productive thing left for me to say is to switch to Pathfinder, where Rapid Shot and Manyshot make sense!
Where are you reading that? This is a direct quote from the Paizo Reference Document
I'm reading it directly out of the PHB 3.5 that I have in front of me. I had to double check to make sure I was posting this in the D&D 3.5 thread and not Pathfinder as the rule may have changed with PF (I don't have that book in front of me at the moment).
Heh, me too on not seeing this was 3.5...
I second the recommendation to switch to the new version, if not fully for the game then at least for these feats. The 3.5 Manyshot was a different beast from Pathfinder.
Now, even with that, the rule you are seeking as to why Standard Actions cannot become Full-Round Actions is in roughly the same section of the rules, under Combat in the Actions section, if I remember correctly. Actions are generally a specific type, and that cannot be changed in most cases (corner cases being things like class abilities that alter a feat). I haven't looked at 3.5 in about that many years...
I sure wish I could switch over, but I'm just a player and not the DM. So far everyone except me are against it because they don't see the point....*sigh*
Bummer...once I'm not at work I can look up more specifics on the rules, but in general the case is solid and these two feats truly cannot be combined in 3.5.
Page 139, Action Types, Restricted Activity: "...You can start or complete a full-round action by using a standard action."
I just don't see how you can take a specific action during *JUST* your standard action and not a Full-Round Action.
How does that make sense? If you are standing still and attacking, why can't you do the same kind of attacks as you would during a standard action and just choosing not to move?
"In some situations (such as when you're slowed or during a surprise round), you may be unable to take a full round's worth of actions. In such cases, you are restricted to taking only a single standard action or a single move action (plus free actions as normal0> You can't take a full-round action (though you can start or complete a full-round action by using a standard action.)"
That last parenthesis actually says you can begin your Full-Round Action by using a Standard Action. Thus if you begin your FRA with the Manyshot as your *first* or *last* attack of that round, you should be allowed to.
That is referring to actions than can be completed over several rounds such as spellcasting. As an example if I use a spell that takes a full round action(1 round) I can start it on one round, and finish on the next round. Not all actions are allows to take place over several rounds.
Basically you are asking the equivalent of why can't you use a spell as your first attack and then use the rest of your attacks with a weapon if you make a full attack.
Manyshot is useful when you can only make a single attack, maybe because you moved, you are sniping, you are slowed, or whatever reason.
Rapid Shot is useful when you are making a full attack, because you didn't move more than 5 feet, are mounted, or whatever.
The real issue concerning Manyshot is can it be combined with Shot on the Run.
I would like to know where specifically it says I cannot perform a specific attack that says "during a standard action" during a Full Round Action instead?<snip>
Where does it say it can't stack? I see so many people saying they don't because you can't use a Standard Action during a Full Round Attack, but I have never read this *anywhere* in *any edition*. If someone can back this up with the rule, I will be quite happy.
Full-Round Actions
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.
Also stated on pg 143 in the PHB 3.5
Choosing not to move after a Standard Action does not turn it into a Full-round Action, its merely a choice to abdicate that part of your action.
Hope that helps
I just don't see how you can take a specific action during *JUST* your standard action and not a Full-Round Action.
How does that make sense? If you are standing still and attacking, why can't you do the same kind of attacks as you would during a standard action and just choosing not to move?
I see your point, 3D. But there are many cases where the game mechanics and real-world physics do not gel, for purposes of either ease of play, or game balance.
The only argument I can think of to the contrary is that such special attacks (those requiring a standard action) require more effort and take slightly longer to perform. I could see how spinning in a wide arc to hit two adjacent foes (Cleave, a standard action) could take a few split seconds longer to complete than a simple thrust or slice to one foe. Same with a Vicious Strike. Think of boxing: most boxers can probably throw two jabs in the same time it takes to throw a powerful hook or uppercut.
My guess is that the devs did not want to see extra attacks piled on top of a Vicious Strike, or a Great Cleave, for example, as it might disrupt game balance.
Micheal pretty much has it. Game balance trumps common sense, and/or realism.
P.S.: My examples are PF examples, and the OP is talking about 3.5 I believe, but the point is basically the same.
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Actually, I think the intent was for Manyshot to give you a second attack when you would normally only be able to take one (i.e., during a standard action).
For 3.5, it reads like Rapid Shot was intended to give you an extra attack during a full-round action, and Manyshot to give you one during a standard action. The second is actually a bit more powerful than the first as you can move and fire twice during the round. Normally the only way you get more than one attack in a round is with a full-round action.
If you think about it, Manyshot *doubles* your attacks with a standard action, while Rapid Shot (at 6th level) only increases your number of attacks by 50% -- and goes down as your BAB allows extra attacks with a full-round action.
Actually, I think the intent was for Manyshot to give you a second attack when you would normally only be able to take one (i.e., during a standard action).
For 3.5, it reads like Rapid Shot was intended to give you an extra attack during a full-round action, and Manyshot to give you one during a standard action. The second is actually a bit more powerful than the first as you can move and fire twice during the round. Normally the only way you get more than one attack in a round is with a full-round action.
If you think about it, Manyshot *doubles* your attacks with a standard action, while Rapid Shot (at 6th level) only increases your number of attacks by 50% -- and goes down as your BAB allows extra attacks with a full-round action.
Well to be clear, in 3.5, with Manyshot you made a single attack but you hit with more than one arrow.
Some consequences of this distinction: