|
The main point of the thread isn't "Can we all just get along". The main point is "Accommodate me!"
If it works at your table, fine. Great in fact, as I would love for all of the people who like to play that way to be able to play together somewhere I am not playing and be happy.
But if the people you are playing with feel the setting and story is derailed by you wanting to something that is inconsistent with the setting, you aren't saying "Let's get along" you are saying "Give me what I want even if it makes the game less fun for you."
You don't get to be upset when you want to go off setting and the people at your table don't want you to because it will make the game less fun for them.
|
This is a bit of an aside, but as my username and profile pic should attest, I'm a bit of a Salvatore fan. And Salvatore did eventually provide a more satisfying explanation than stupendous luck as to why good-aligned Drizzt survived among the evil drow: He was actually blessed by the CE deity of drow in Forgotten Realms, Lloth.
It was sort of like that old parable about the one honest man who lives in a town full of thieves. Y'know, everybody steals from everybody else each night, so they all have an equal share in the morning. Until the honest man shows up and by virtue of being honest throws their entire society into disarray.
I've never been a huge fan of good-aligned Drow in games probably because it became such a staple after Drizzt. For a while it seemed like Drow were actually entirely a race of chaotic good beings casting off their evil society---and yes, I am keenly aware of the irony that provided. Yes, yes, we all enjoyed the books. But quit rehashing the same old story everybody at the table has read.
But still, for my custom world, I like to muddy the waters as far as good and evil races are concerned. My own pantheon features no good or evil gods, but only 4 chief deities corresponding to the elements whose interest in mortal ethics is almost nil. Every thinking member of any race has the potential to be any alignment.
But when I play in Golarion, you'd best believe every single Orc or Drow you meet is going to be evil to the core. Yes, there might be exceptions, but the odds of meeting that one in one-hundred millionth Bugbear who just wants to adopt kittens and paint rainbows are so stacked against you that I would find it disingenuous to include it in the game.
This is a bit of an aside, but as my username and profile pic should attest, I'm a bit of a Salvatore fan. And Salvatore did eventually provide a more satisfying explanation than stupendous luck as to why good-aligned Drizzt survived among the evil drow: He was actually blessed by the CE deity of drow in Forgotten Realms, Lloth.
It was sort of like that old parable about the one honest man who lives in a town full of thieves. Y'know, everybody steals from everybody else each night, so they all have an equal share in the morning. Until the honest man shows up and by virtue of being honest throws their entire society into disarray.
For what it's worth (so as not to derail things too much):
I liked the character much better when it was strongly implied in the Crystal Shard that he was, to begin with, a typical evil drow, and it was the fact that he had to be exiled for killing another drow to steal the panther that led to his isolation and eventual journey to the surface.
The original book also implied that Drizzt wasn't young, but middle aged, meaning he could have wandered for decades before finding Mooshie and having his epiphany and thus becoming a ranger.
Once he became a protagonist, cogent to the original point, it wasn't just that he had free will, it was that he seemed to be born good, just as the others were born bad. Heck, even the sister that was more "neutral" shared the same father, and almost seemed to imply that the "not evil" gene came from Zaknefein.
The middle aged drow that has been around for centuries and turned good because of his exile and subsequent experience is obviously a more rare, and thus, more satisfying character. Once this was detailed in depth, with a younger Drizzt that was always idealistic, I think it cheapened the concept.
|
I think D&D novels about rare and unique situations tend to make it harder for DM's to run their games at times. "Well Drizzt was a good drow, why can't I?" It's okay every now and then but some people like to make those rare and unique instances happen every time they create a character and then tell you that as a PC you are supposed to be outside the norm.
I don't go whine to my DM about him not letting me play a non-evil Orc. It's sad when people put words in my mouth, which I feel Ciretose kinda did here. I wouldn't want to play D&D with people who consider the genocide of any race to be okay "just because alignment system", because these guys would totally say a Paladin can get off killing Orc babies. I'd play in such campaigns without ANY RP involved (as in, more like playing a videogame), but that's not really D&D anymore, if you ask me.
Then again, my group that does sport less heroic behaviour is also the one that houseruled "we don't use the alignment system" and were also the guys who agreed Orcs aren't born evil, they're born aggressive. And Shallow, the idea of the PCs as characters is that they are out of the norm at least in some regard, be it in background, the fact that they are the toughest around, or something else. And if the PC could be an exception, what's there to stop the existence of other such exceptions, as rare as they happen to be? Just because people don't mention them doesn't mean they aren't there.
|
|
I don't go whine to my DM about him not letting me play a non-evil Orc. It's sad when people put words in my mouth, which I feel Ciretose kinda did here. I wouldn't want to play D&D with people who consider the genocide of any race to be okay "just because alignment system", because these guys would totally say a Paladin can get off killing Orc babies. I'd play in such campaigns without ANY RP involved (as in, more like playing a videogame), but that's not really D&D anymore, if you ask me.
Then again, my group that does sport less heroic behaviour is also the one that houseruled "we don't use the alignment system" and were also the guys who agreed Orcs aren't born evil, they're born aggressive. And Shallow, the idea of the PCs as characters is that they are out of the norm at least in some regard, be it in background, the fact that they are the toughest around, or something else. And if the PC could be an exception, what's there to stop the existence of other such exceptions, as rare as they happen to be? Just because people don't mention them doesn't mean they aren't there.
In all honesty, if you have moral issues with the whole thing and you can't separate the fantasy from real life then maybe Pathfinder and D&D aren't the games for you. I would actually recommend games like Mouseguard, or maybe even Buffy and Angel.
|
|
I don't go whine to my DM about him not letting me play a non-evil Orc. It's sad when people put words in my mouth, which I feel Ciretose kinda did here. I wouldn't want to play D&D with people who consider the genocide of any race to be okay "just because alignment system", because these guys would totally say a Paladin can get off killing Orc babies. I'd play in such campaigns without ANY RP involved (as in, more like playing a videogame), but that's not really D&D anymore, if you ask me.
Then again, my group that does sport less heroic behaviour is also the one that houseruled "we don't use the alignment system" and were also the guys who agreed Orcs aren't born evil, they're born aggressive. And Shallow, the idea of the PCs as characters is that they are out of the norm at least in some regard, be it in background, the fact that they are the toughest around, or something else. And if the PC could be an exception, what's there to stop the existence of other such exceptions, as rare as they happen to be? Just because people don't mention them doesn't mean they aren't there.
And your "exception" would derail the verisimilitude of most settings and groups. You would be asking for "special" while saying "why can't we be accommodating".
Why can't the player who is trying to play something that doesn't fit the setting be accommodating to everyone else instead?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In all honesty, if you have moral issues with the whole thing and you can't separate the fantasy from real life then maybe Pathfinder and D&D aren't the games for you. I would actually recommend games like Mouseguard, or maybe even Buffy and Angel.
Geez. These debates get pretty unpleasant.
First off. Mouse Guard, Buffy and Angel (are those two separate RPGs? Wasn't aware they were....) are perfectly grim games. They carry about as much absolutism as D&D, too. Did you even experience the works they're based off of?Second off. Since when was he unable to 'separate the fantasy from real life'? You're taking insults from other issues to make Shadow look bad. We aren't talking about satanism, we're talking about how he likes games where orcs aren't automatically evil. I prefer games where they generally are, and yet I'm able to overcome the urge to be nasty to him.
|
|
In all honesty, if you have moral issues with the whole thing and you can't separate the fantasy from real life then maybe Pathfinder and D&D aren't the games for you. I would actually recommend games like Mouseguard, or maybe even Buffy and Angel.Geez. These debates get pretty unpleasant.
First off. Mouse Guard, Buffy and Angel (are those two separate RPGs? Wasn't aware they were....) are perfectly grim games. They carry about as much absolutism as D&D, too. Did you even experience the works they're based off of?Second off. Since when was he unable to 'separate the fantasy from real life'? You're taking insults from other issues to make Shadow look bad. We aren't talking about satanism, we're talking about how he likes games where orcs aren't automatically evil. I prefer games where they generally are, and yet I'm able to overcome the urge to be nasty to him.
I'm sorry but when someone starts to get emotional because of genecide in a game then maybe that game isn't for you. Don't start with the being mean crap. I know people got to the point where they were having trouble separating the fantasy. It's not about being mean, if you can't take watching horror movies them maybe you need to stop watching them and pick a different genre.
Removed posts. Be civil. Flag it and move on.
EDIT: Oh, I remembered what I said. Yeah, that was a bit much. I'm usually more careful than that nowadays. My bad. :/
I wouldn't want to play D&D with people who consider the genocide of any race to be okay "just because alignment system"
Just because all Orcs are Evil (and they are that), it doesn't mean that genocide is the only answer. It does mean that when the proper checks are rolled, the party will have a good idea of how these creatures behave and can therefore plan their actions accordingly.
Having said that, if you want to have a bunch of Good Orcs running around, then that's your prerogative.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I like how Evil hat presented the good-evil thing. Humans have FREE-WILL, they can choose to be and do 'evil' or 'good' as it suits the individual; everything else MUST follow their NATURE. As for the OP, it's in an Orc's nature to be aggressive and violent. It's the Orc's choice to use that nature for the defense of others or to dominate others.
Wait... what? This makes no sense. Humans have a nature, and they have free will. Orcs only have a nature? Really? What about elves, dwarves, halflings, etc.? Can you really count as the same general type two groups, one of whom has free will and the other of which doesn't? That's pretty huge right there.
I mean, sure, it gets very silly when every dark elf you meet is a chaotic good rebel trying to redeem his race, but at the same time, I think most people assume that any living non-outsider with an INT of 3+ has free will, and if you aren't acting on that, you should make sure your players know that, because it's a massive departure from custom.
I mean, sure, it gets very silly when every dark elf you meet is a chaotic good rebel trying to redeem his race, but at the same time, I think most people assume that any living non-outsider with an INT of 3+ has free will, and if you aren't acting on that, you should make sure your players know that, because it's a massive departure from custom.
I assumed it being a departure from custom went without saying, though it's possible I'm completely clueless--I've no idea what 'Evil hat' is. :P
It's an odd approach, but I could see myself enjoying such a game. It's just a very different setting.