Hey there Pathfinder community!
I'm DMing a group of 6 (all level 3) and there is 1 rogue in the group. Rogues have some unique options that can disrupt groups and cause unbalance. I'm trying to find a way to make it work. Here are my problems:
1) Rogues can pickpocket and steal. According to the core rulebook, most rogues can take palm-sized objects without being detected.
What stops a rogue from spending 10 hours stealing gold from every person in a town and becoming rich? What stops a rogue from stealing a valuable item worth 3,000 gold from a shop at level 1? Couldn't a rogue steal a vital quest item and completely bypass entire sections of campaigns?
Stealing mechanics seem so general and so vague. If the target person holding the item would see the rogue, the player could simply say "I wait awhile until he's distracted and then I steal". Eventually the stealing gets out of hand.
2) Rogues have sneak attacks. The rulebook says you can sneak attack when the enemy is flat footed, flanked or otherwise unaware of the rogue's presence. The rogue in the group wants to use his sneak attacks more often.
When the group of 6 players bust into a room, how does the rogue get a sneak attack? Logically, it's not possible for a rogue to just "begin sneaking" once combat starts. There are few scenarios where rogues can get sneak attacks - outside of flanking. I get the feeling that the player using the rogue doesn't feel as useful if he can't use sneak attacks as often.
Throwing in a cluster of D6 for every attack would be too much, so there has to be some kind of balance.
3) How do I help a rogue feel more valuable without breaking the campaign? Even as a "skill monkey," other players are starting to get lots of skill levels and there isn't a clear line anymore.
Thank you for your time!
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Hi Wolfus!
Let me start by saying that just because a Rogue CAN do something doesn't mean he SHOULD do something - and it is definitely not an auto-success when he does it.
Regarding your questions:
1) Stealing and Pick Pocketing - This ability is largely dependent on the environment and the availbility of things to steal. If you're in a small town, there just isn't that much of value worth stealing and the average citizen doesn't have much in their pockets to pick. This is something you as a GM should keep in mind. Plus, even if the Rogue decides to pick pockets, it is a contested check, so each victim has a shot of noticing it - as does any member of the city guard in the vicinity. As for stealing in general, burglary is an encounter in and of itself. If the Rogue PC does want to steal a vital quest item, make sure there are plenty of traps along the way, as well as guards to get past. Chances are, your vital quest items are not easy to get to, so the presence of guards and traps should discourage this adventure-bypassing strategy. Part of your job as GM is to make theft achieveable, but challenging. It should not be an automatic part of the Rogue's class features.
2) Sneak attacks - Rogue's can get them in the surprise round of combat, and if their initiative is higher than their opponents. Otherwise, they must flank or find another way for their target to be deprived of their Dex bonus to AC. The Rogue is highly dependent on teamwork to be effective in combat. Tell your player he should work with any Fighters in the group and devlop tactics so he can optimize his Sneak Attacks, and help the Fighter in combat encounters.
3) Rogue Relevancy - A Rogue is a bit different than any other class in Pathfinder. As such, each individual player has a different way to play them. The fun of the Rogue is often in the role-playing and the non-combat encounters. If your Rogue player seems to be discouraged, provide a role-playing hook that is suited to his skillset - maybe an old acquaintance is in town and needs the Rogue's help with a situation. This can make the Rogue player feel important, as he is basically the adventure hook. Add traps to encounters, so the Rogue can scout ahead and disable them. Design encounters that require your Rogue's skills to accomplish, such as breaking into a building undetected, scouting out a campsite, etc. Remember, since Rogue's arent' full BAB melee characters, nor are the spellcasting characters, they take a little more effort (by both the PC and GM) to shine. I will tell you that in my personal experience, the Rogue has always been my favorite class to play, and my most memorable PCs are Rogues.
Hope this helps!
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If by "cause unbalance" you mean, "end up so much weaker than the rest of the party that designing encounters where they don't feel useless is difficult," then I guess you're correct, that can certainly happen with a rogue...
1) Anyone can steal. Rogues just have a +3 class skill bonus on it..
What stops them is the DC is just to steal the item, NOT to be unnoticed. You have to beat the perception checks of anyone within sight that isn't distracted to do it WITHOUT BEING NOTICED. Chances are, the rogue will get noticed eventually. And "getting caught stealing" is one of those things you really don't want to have happen, even just once, depending on local laws...
2) Before your first turn in an encounter, you are considered flatfooted, even if neither side has surprise, and thus a rogue can sneak attack you. This is in the initiative rules. Think of it like a wild west duel, both sides are aware of the other, but whoever's faster on the draw catches the other guy offguard.
And sneak attacking on every attack is not overpowered, a fighter with a greatsword power attacking would still do the same or more damage on average. Of course, always sneak attacking is difficult to achieve especially in PF compared to D&D 3.5.
3) You really can't help the rogue with being a good skill monkey without adopting houserules. The class skill changes made it so that it's impossible for a rogue to have an edge on anyone else at any skill except perhaps disable device. If you're willing to adopt houserules to enhance a rogue's skill bonuses, I could make suggestions. Otherwise, I think it'd be much easier to buff rogue's combat abilities to bring him up to par instead. Most of the changes there require simply "upgrading" to how the 3.5 rules for various things worked.
1) Look up the Sleight of Hand skill -- that is what a rogue uses to steal things from other people. It has definite limitations and skill DCs listed. The main limitation is the opposed Perception roll of the person being robbed -- if you have a rogue player character, even one with a high Sleight of Hand bonus, who indiscriminately picks the pockets of everyone he meets, eventually he will make the mistake of picking the pocket of somebody with a high Perception bonus who catches him in the act. Bad things happen to thieves who are caught that way.
2) In the first round of combat, the rogue can sneak attack most foes who are after him in the initiative order. After that, he needs to flank, feint, or otherwise make his foe vulnerable. For the rogue, the combat is a contest of maneuvers -- the rogue tries to gain an advantageous position while the enemies try to prevent him from doing so.
3) A rogue is still one of only a handful of character types who can disable magical traps -- so put a few of those into your game. He can also benefit in combat if he has a high bonus in Acrobatics (for tumbling past foes so that he can flank them) or Bluff (for feinting so that they become vulnerable to sneak attack). I think the rogue is also one of the few classes to have Use Magical Device as a class skill -- if your rogue is good at that skill, hand out magic items that theoretically nobody in the party can use so that the rogue can use that skill to fake the item out.
Also, in regard to point 1), the Fighter is actually a better thief than the Rogue. Sure a couple of Rogue class features help out of combat, especially the Cutpurse archetype, but success really is just based off of an easy steal DC followed by a slightly harder stealth vs. perception check. However IN combat, stealing is a CMB check, which the Fighter will always be better at. The Fighter also has enough feats to take Improved Steal (and its prerequisite) and still be combat effective.
1. No. In the skill description of slieght of hand you find this:
"If you try to take something from a creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check. The opponent makes a Perception check to detect the attempt, opposed by the Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You cannot use this skill to take an object from another creature during combat if the creature is aware of your presence."
There are 2 checks. Both get easier with higher level, but still 2 sources of possible failure. Also sometimes just being somewhere or getting too close is a strange thing triggering suspicion or punishment already. Call for bluffs and other stuff then.
Sleight of hand to pickpocket is not that easy. Additionally, pickpocketing on the marketplace or other open areas requires hard stealth checks and gives multiple NPC´s oportunity for perception checks.
One of them will do it and shout: "Thief!", what will bring the player into serious trouble.
The world isn´t empty and stealth and other rules apply all the time. On my own experience i can tell you that it needs a lot of creativity to pull special stuff "ocean´s eleven style" of. You play the world and therefore control all shops, their costumers and owners, which you can use. Expensive stuff is protected by many means, even magical maybe. Be creative.
A PC rogue or not, should not use this for ego trips. Rather for the good of the group or situation. Like getting food etc for them or helping out in need. You can build in challenges for specific PC´s, so everybody feels challenged and has a part to play.
2. Sneak attack is a problem of its own. The most reliable way to get it is greater feint. If you manage to get the feat moonlight stalker feint you can feint as a swift action every round. Else just encourage cooperation between your player like for flanking, but let the fighter or someone else move in the exposed flanking position.
The same with different skills. If done right, different party members focus on different skills and roles they take. Competition about the best diplomacy skill or something like that is stupid and even dangerous. Better to take different knowledge skills and craft skills or professions.
I'll try to answer the sneak attack bit without e pressing my frustrations playing a rogue. a thing to remember is static bonuses like from power attack or high strength will always beat out random dice. secondly rogues have to create the conditions for sneak attack either through flanking or spells or hide in plane sight.
what this means is the rogue is often Sean tumble flank single hit okay damage spends a round moving to position repeat.
meanwhile an archer just retargets a new opponent and hits for huge damage a 2h person just charges and hits things they done have to create a situation they just do things.
as time goes on monster hps get higher etc the rogue will find it harder and harder to do his schtick.
Well sneak attack is a tactical challenge, it requires some knowledge of the game and rules.
But it is fun and more rewarding in the end than just stand there and autohit anything.
First take a look on all conditions that allow sneak attack.
Second become aware how to apply those conditions.
Then choose 2 ways to do it, take the according feats and items.
Prepare at least one plan b or better more alternative plans in case you can´t do it whyever or you meet foes you can´t sneak attack. UMD is a great thing here with several wands.
Ways to get sneak attack:
-surprise round
-feinting
-flanking
-"melee sniping" (use hips or hellcat stealth or ninja vanishing trick etc to get into stealth again)
-sniping
-dirty trick blind
-invisibility
-applying other conditions that grant sneak attack, aka flat-footed/denied DEX. Find it here: Conditions
"Throwing in a cluster of D6 for every attack" is still ok, because its hard to achieve and the rogue still has a medium BAB, what means he does not autohit. So its far from ensured damage.
Sneak attack gives +1D6 every other level, which is worth +3.5 damage on average. Rogue has 3/4 BAB.
Power attack gives +3 damage every 4 levels (2-H, full BAB). A full BAB character using power attack gets the same attack bonus as a 3/4 BAB class when making attacks.
When you can get sneak attack off, it is giving more than twice as much damage than from power attack (on average). Sure, Fighter gets a bunch of other stuff to ramp up his attack/damage but you should still be doing pretty well.
IMO when rogues are not doing competitive damage they are either low strength builds or are not getting into flanking positions or the DM is throwing sneak attack immune enemies at the party.
1. Is easy on two fronts. You can either say “Hey, I want to run a heroic style game please, none of that stuff please”. Or you can tell the player that WealthByLevel is xx amount. Pickpocketing and shoplifting will only reduce the amount you get from loot.
2. Rogues usually have to flank or catch the foe flat-footed on the 1st round. Flanking can be done at any time, it just takes some tactics and danger.
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Sneak attack gives +1D6 every other level, which is worth +3.5 damage on average. Rogue has 3/4 BAB.
Power attack gives +3 damage every 4 levels (2-H, full BAB). A full BAB character using power attack gets the same attack bonus as a 3/4 BAB class when making attacks.
When you can get sneak attack off, it is giving more than twice as much damage than from power attack (on average). Sure, Fighter gets a bunch of other stuff to ramp up his attack/damage but you should still be doing pretty well.
IMO when rogues are not doing competitive damage they are either low strength builds or are not getting into flanking positions or the DM is throwing sneak attack immune enemies at the party.
the damage bonus of sneak attack might look better than it is but there are many downsides
it requires effort and cooperation to set up.
it is considered precision damage, meaning it doesn't increase with crits, and there are many creatures that are completely immune to it.
the rogue most likely has a lower strength, so sneak attack is thier bread and butter
the rogue also has a lower base attack bonus with no means of independantly augmenting it. there is also the universal encouragement of further penalizing this low accuracy. fighters have more feats, as well as the ability to hyperspecialize in a weapon to augment thier accuracy.
it doesn't matter how many attacks you make if they do nothing but miss.
Were I the GM with a player whose PC was a rogue or ninja I would offer the player the choice of two house rules.
(1) "If you are not giving me your full attention I can stab you where it hurts most"
The PC only adds d4s instead of d6s. But the sneak attack can be used whenever another ally is still threatening the target and has previously damaged the target.
(2) "If my friends and I are flanking you then you're in big trouble"
The rogue automatically gains the teamwork feat Precise Strike, and furthermore any ally with whom he is flanking is treated as also having the feat.
The amount of stuff he can pickpocket will not be that great. Most noncombatant NPC's don't have much on them. The ones that can fight will have a better chance of catching the rogue in the act. If the rogue(player) knows that going to jail or worse is possible he might decide to not be a criminal.
Sneak attack gives +1D6 every other level, which is worth +3.5 damage on average. Rogue has 3/4 BAB.
Power attack gives +3 damage every 4 levels (2-H, full BAB). A full BAB character using power attack gets the same attack bonus as a 3/4 BAB class when making attacks.
When you can get sneak attack off, it is giving more than twice as much damage than from power attack (on average). Sure, Fighter gets a bunch of other stuff to ramp up his attack/damage but you should still be doing pretty well.
IMO when rogues are not doing competitive damage they are either low strength builds or are not getting into flanking positions or the DM is throwing sneak attack immune enemies at the party.
That's warrior logic: an NPC class.
Sneak is 1.75/level. PA is 0.75/level. Weapon Training is 0.2 damage and accuracy/level, nearly completely offsetting the power attack penalty. Weapon Specialization and Greater average out to another 0.2 damage/level. Then there are the levels where the fighter has an extra iterative, which has a better chance of hitting than a rogue's lowest iterative thanks to weapon training. Unless you're fighting flatfooted giants or something similarly difficult to miss the fighter will hit more, applying his 1.15 damage/level significantly more often than the rogue applies his 1.75/level.
Plus factor in multiplying the damage based on crits, if it's not already in those calculations, which Sneak Attack doesn't get.
An average level 3 guard (assuming Fighter 3) has a Perception check of +3 (3 skill ranks, 0 wisdom bonus, not a class skill, and its doubtful that a fighter wastes feats on Alertness and skill focus (Perception).
An average Rogue at level 3 would have +9 (+3 for skill ranks, +3 for class skill, +3 skill focus if your goal is to do that).
+9 beats +3 almost every time.
Bottom line, rogue trumps guards almost every time. A high level rogue (12+) wins even more, as even in a metropolis, guards shouldn't be above 5th-6th level. And even if you have a high level guard or two, they are not going to be wasted patrolling the streets looking for a pick pocket.
So to the OP, yes a rogue can get rich pick-pocketing, especially high level ones.
You just have to deal with that.
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An average level 3 guard (assuming Fighter 3) has a Perception check of +3 (3 skill ranks, 0 wisdom bonus, not a class skill, and its doubtful that a fighter wastes feats on Alertness and skill focus (Perception).
An average Rogue at level 3 would have +9 (+3 for skill ranks, +3 for class skill, +3 skill focus if your goal is to do that).
+9 beats +3 almost every time.
Bottom line, rogue trumps guards almost every time. A high level rogue (12+) wins even more, as even in a metropolis, guards shouldn't be above 5th-6th level. And even if you have a high level guard or two, they are not going to be wasted patrolling the streets looking for a pick pocket.
So to the OP, yes a rogue can get rich pick-pocketing, especially high level ones.
You just have to deal with that.
A few things in regards to the above:
It’s more likely that the town guards are warriors not fighters, but the point is moot since neither have perception as class skills. However the premise that someone that’s core occupation is to be on the lookout for trouble hasn’t bothered to pick up a perception based feat is a bit thin. Regardless lets assume that none of them do and have a look at the calculation.
When a rogue pickpockets someone everyone in line-of-site gets a perception check against the pick pocketing role. Since villages are going to start shouting “thief!” as soon as they notice the rogue you are going have more than town guards making perception rolls(Some of which have perception as a class skill).
This means that you have multiple apposed rolls. Combine this with the fact that most NPC’s would be pushing to have a gold piece worth of coin on them and the rogue would have to do this hundreds, if not thousands, of times to get enough wealth to be relevant. At some point he is going to roll low and one of the dozen people that get opposed rolls is going to roll high at which point he gets spotted and assuming he gets away, wanted posters go up, etc, etc. To stop this he would need a pick-pocket of 20+.
So let’s assume that he does have that 20+ pick-pocket. Due to the time to stalk a target and rob them of their pouch multiplied by the thousand or so time he has to do it means that on a pure time vs. reward scale he would be better off adventuring.
In net, the really greedy rogues are off adventuring, not stealing coppers from peasants.
Oh, and if you prey on a town for long enough, someone is going to pay a cleric/wizard to divine you out…
In reply to Endareth.
I get what you're saying, and it makes sense. I could see the argument working for a small village, but it not in a big city.
The multiple people making perception checks when you pick pocket on a busy street doesn't make any sense. If you've ever been to a big city, people are busy doing their own things, trying to get from one place to another. I would rule a crowded street gives the pick-pocket an advantage as there is so much commotion and such. People, even in a fantasy world, are self-absorbed.
If I'm Joe Schmoe commoner looking at apples at a grocery stand with eight other people, I'm not looking out for those people, watching to see if they get pick-pocketed. I'm distracted because I have to fight eight other people to get the apple I want. I wouldn't even give the guy a perception check to see someone across the apple stand getting pick-pocketed. I might very well give one if the rogue tries to pocket an apple however lol!
Secondly, even if Joe Schmoe in a big city sees a person getting pick-pocketed, he may very well choose not to get involved. Its not my problem, I'm busy and its one guy getting pick-pocketed, and the self-arguments continue.
In a smaller village, sure, Joe Schmoe would be looking out for Nancy Fancy and would get a perception check, no doubt.
But the argument that everyone, all the time should make perception checks doesn't make any sense to me. You're assuming people care about the well-being of other people they don't know, and even if they do, whether they are bold enough to say anything.
Sorry if this is rambling, haven't had my coffee yet lol :)
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You have a number of choices here. Rogues in town can be handled depending on how you and the players want the campaign to go.
You can run some individual pickpocket attempts based on the rules, one issue is that there is no guidance on what you get, as in most cases what the rogue steals is a pouch or other holding item rather than a particular item. I used a table based on the level of the target, with the assumption that higher level = richer. You should also include mundane items. You can also use this as a method of introducing new plots e.g. a small black statue of a bird.
Here's my house rule for this:
Pickpocket Results will be determined as follows:
Commoner Level
Amount Carried
1 1d4 cp
2 1d6 cp
3 1d8 cp
4 1d10 cp
5 1d12 cp
6 2d4 cp,1d4 sp
7 2d6 cp, 1d6 sp
8 2d8cp, 1d8 sp
9 2d10cp, 1d10sp
10 2d12cp, 1d12 sp
11 3d4cp, 2d4sp
Higher levels follow the same pattern.
Experts will carry twice the dice of commoners of the same level.
Aristocrats carry silver and gold instead.
The DM may substitute items of equivalent value for coins.
Attempts to steal particular items will incur negative skill modifiers.
If the Rogue just wants to use their skill to earn a wage, I allow all skills to be used like craft or profession. You earn a lot less but it's more risk free.
In small towns the locals are likely to be low level, so not much gold there. Anyone with a shop selling valuable items will be employing security measures, at the very least keeping them locked up and employing guards, also employing some basic magic like alarm or arcane lock.
As others have suggested, regular pickpocketing is likely to attract the notice of the local thieves guild or other groups in town. Lots of plot potential here if you want to have town based adventures. If the plot is to acquire item X, then having the party plan to steal it seems like a good opportunity for role-playing.
Well if you read the skill description carefully, you will see this sentence:
"You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like."
That is why i would apply similar statistics like on the perform skill:
Perform DC Performance
10 Routine performance. Trying to earn money by playing in public is akin to begging. You can earn 1d10 cp/day.
15 Enjoyable performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 1d10 sp/day.
20 Great performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 3d10 sp/day. In time, you may be invited to join a professional troupe and may develop a regional reputation.
25 Memorable performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 1d6 gp/day. In time, you may come to the attention of noble patrons and develop a national reputation.
30 Extraordinary performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 3d6 gp/day. In time, you may draw attention from distant patrons, or even from extraplanar beings.
No matter if entertaining or stealing.
This way is more convenient, since you avoid long solo play time and only make one check for a certain time.
If the player in question wants bigger stuff, it might get more complicated and dangerous and eventually be a group thing again, since it could be more of a heist.
Thank you for all of your responses. I've reviewed all of them and I'm going to begin applying some of these techniques into the game.