Goblin Squad Member
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I think I would rather see Dementor type magical constructs which are used to keep the peace. This is opposed to the human (or other player available race) NPCs working in some backwater part of Golarion...that are just short of being gods in their power. This could also help explain their singular purpose and seeming omniscience within their domain.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like this better than god-like human farmers turned small town militia.
It's a lot more plausible that some powerful wizard benefactor is helping to keep the peace than the idea that Tom from down the street merely has to put on a breastplate and is now nigh unto invincible. At least less immersion breaking, in any case.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would it be that bad to have a game where the Player Characters aren't demi-gods compared to the majority or NPC's?
No, that is exactly what I want...but nor should it go the other way. In my opinion, NPCs and PC should be treated identically by the game...and a random NPC, should be on par with an average (random) PC. And, that is exactly my problem, these guards are demi-gods compare to the PCs...and have skills the PCs do not have access to. This for me is an immersion/logic/world consistency issue.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think having cheap, powerful, obedient anything serve as guards raises questions (why is there a niche for the PCs?)
I'd rather see guards with abilities that the PCs lack that have excessive limits; they can be given magic items by the same hypothetical wizard that would be making the constructs.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Why would the powerful entities act as guards for a few villages if they are more powerful than most groups of adventurers?
There is a suspension of disbelief required for effective NPC police in any case, and making them anything but improbably effective humanoids adds more questions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why would the powerful entities act as guards for a few villages if they are more powerful than most groups of adventurers?
There is a suspension of disbelief required for effective NPC police in any case, and making them anything but improbably effective humanoids adds more questions.
Well since in this case the biggest plots most likely don't result right near the NPC cities. I could see that not really being an issue. People police their own towns. The game is more about individuals going out and carving a slice of the world. There isn't a kobald overlord threatening the NPC towns that the effectively 30th level NPCs are hiring 2nd level PCs to deal with, more likely then not it's going to be cooks asking for meat or more open ended things that aren't related to the safety of the town, as well as just hidden stuff that the PCs themselves will stumble on. The enemies were described as threats to player hexes, I doubt there will be much in fierce attacking enemies in high security zones.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would it be that bad to have a game where the Player Characters aren't demi-gods compared to the majority or NPC's?No, that is exactly what I want...but nor should it go the other way. In my opinion, NPCs and PC should be treated identically by the game...and a random NPC, should be on par with an average (random) PC. And, that is exactly my problem, these guards are demi-gods compare to the PCs...and have skills the PCs do not have access to. This for me is an immersion/logic/world consistency issue.
No one said they have to be demi-gods. Nowhere does it say that a single marshal will come attack you, they are refereed to as plural. If 5 20-badge marshals of varying class come per attacker, do you think the attacker(s) would have a chance?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why would the powerful entities act as guards for a few villages if they are more powerful than most groups of adventurers?
There is a suspension of disbelief required for effective NPC police in any case, and making them anything but improbably effective humanoids adds more questions.
Ah well that was also my point, but a failed to fully explain myself. I was picturing zero IQ magical constructs that can not do anything but act upon simple rules in a small area. These semi corporeal beings were made with lots of power, not much else. Mindless constructs are in fact the only way to solve your question. This also explains why they are absolutely impartial in their administration of justice. This is also why they don't "want" to become anything more than they are.
I would think someone would find a way to gain control of them directly or control the controller.
Golems are also easy to get past in games because they can not adapt due to a lack of intelligence.
I think this does not work on several levels once you start getting into way to bypass or control them.
Something more like the constructs from MM 2 which were intelligent, but still magically compelled to always obey would be a better option. I think they were called nimblewrights.
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Well if you run a campaign from level 1-20
Town Guards are usually equal to the town size.
Village has level 1 guards and level 3 veteran guard and a level 5 captain
Small city has level 1 green guards for simple places and tasks, level 3 regular guards to patrol the streets and level 5 guards as the veterans that do the tough jobs with a level 6 captain.
I just scale them appropriately to the type of city they are going into.
That is just an example.
Like the Ulfen Raiders are level 3 (barbarian 2/Rogue 1) which makes sense to me.
The other one is actually giving the NPC classes a little oomph! I made my own NPC classes and they work fine, the players don't just laugh when they encounter NPC classes.
To be honest right now the NPC classes don't do much so I modified them and made them 10 level classes, since I don't really see an Warrior level 20 if he is level 20 he is probably one of the base classes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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NPC guards shouldn't be super powefull individualy. This only becomes an issue in game systems where a single high level character can easly best a horde of low level characters without breaking a sweat.
If the game system doesn't reflect that, then really not much of an issue. Yeh, you may be a bad-ass that out-match's any individual NPC guard... but if you are all by your lonesome and 30 of them show up, your going down no matter how tough you think you are.
That's how Law Enforcement handles things in real life. No matter how good thier training is.... they don't fall back on it alone. When there is real trouble that they are responding to, they try to send overwhelming numbers so that they can control the situation and there is less risk....because they can't assume that one on one an officer is neccesarly going to come out on top.
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I do the level scaling thing to keep character in check mostly since sometimes they get airs of grandeur and try to pushover guards, which it is funny.
Yes last time the barbarian was thinking he could take on the small city guard captain he was level 13, I don't even remember how he ended up doing this but it was part of the plot.
He lost miserably after killing about 4 level 3 guards, the rest just grappled+aid another and well there wasn't much of the barbarian left to get up and fight after 3 rounds.
Players shouldn't pick fights with guards anyway, unless it's part of a plot of sorts.
NPC guard aren't as powerful still as a fighter or regular base classes, but they offer more of a threat than the current NPC class.
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Goblin Squad Member
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NPC guards shouldn't be super powefull individualy. This only becomes an issue in game systems where a single high level character can easly best a horde of low level characters without breaking a sweat.
If the game system doesn't reflect that, then really not much of an issue. Yeh, you may be a bad-ass that out-match's any individual NPC guard... but if you are all by your lonesome and 30 of them show up, your going down no matter how tough you think you are.
That's how Law Enforcement handles things in real life. No matter how good thier training is.... they don't fall back on it alone. When there is real trouble that they are responding to, they try to send overwhelming numbers so that they can control the situation and there is less risk....because they can't assume that one on one an officer is neccesarly going to come out on top.
I totally agree with this...and my actually preference would be that the guards are NPCs on par with PCs; just characters in the world doing their job. However, they have already stated that the protectors of the safe area will be nigh on invincible and have skills and abilities related specifically to their job way beyond that of even the most powerful PC. This is my issue. If they are so beyond characters, why are they working in the backwoods of Golarion instead of earning hug money in major cities and battlefields? How can any character be beyond a maxed out PC (or NPC)? And if their are these paths of training that offer these godlike abilities, why do we not have access to them? I mean, why not be a Marshal class?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I totally agree with this...and my actually preference would be that the guards are NPCs on par with PCs; just characters in the world doing their job. However, they have already stated that the protectors of the safe area will be nigh on invincible and have skills and abilities related specifically to their job way beyond that of even the most powerful PC. This is my issue. If they are so beyond characters, why are they working in the backwoods of Golarion instead of earning hug money in major cities and battlefields? How can any character be beyond a maxed out PC (or NPC)? And if their are these paths of training that offer these godlike abilities, why do we not have access to them? I mean, why not be a Marshal class?
I agree they should probably be on par with a PC and win more by numbers then brute force. though I also do note that they did mention and I mostly agree with them having their own skills that should not go to players. Namely the perfect tracking and guaranteed root ability etc... which are mainly designed to prevent someone from easilly being able to hit someone in high security area, and easilly run away without repercussions.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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What if we made that ability limited to only work on people who have broken the law in the near past, who are within the jurisdiction of the caster? In other words, an ability that is so specific that PCs will only have a use for it when acting as guards within the protected area of a settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Plan:
There are varying types of marshal
The type of NPC settlement and it's general theme determines what the marshals are. If it is a heavy magic settlement, it can be constructs, if it's a regular town of humanoids, there are humanoids.
If players are given the ability to hire/summon marshals, they can choose what they want.
Never bring up harry potter here again...
Pathfinder has plenty of beings already.
Never bring up harry potter here again...
+1
:P
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps a good middle-ground is that the Guards will 'level up' over time, and the more guards within a small area (say each one has a twenty food radius) they gain stacking bonuses to health, saves, armor, to-hit and damage, meaning that the longer the attack goes on, and the more Guards that come screaming in to the defence, the harder they will hit and the harder it will be to hurt them?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is an area of the game where you need to make a choice. Which abilities do you want guards to have that players can't get: perfect tracking, or super-power construct summoning?
Either way, players will probably never encounter a guard unless they feel like ruining someones day.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another idea that occurs to me, how about players being able to log their characters out in a 'barracks' of the local area. Not only does it make their characters into an NPC Guard, thereby boosting the NPC Guard Presence during off-peak hours and making it harder for Griefers to come in and rampage through a town during the smaller hours of the day, but the PCs who do this gain some small mechanical benefit, either a bonus to attack and damage, or a small bonus % to reputation gains with the faction they just helped and their allies?
Don't forget, Valkenr, that NPCs will also be attacking the three main cities and the towns. Bandits, Goblins, wild animals, Dragons looking to start up a Hoard, so on and so forth, if PCs aren't going out and clearing hexes regularly, the chances for an NPC Invasion are quite high.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another idea that occurs to me, how about players being able to log their characters out in a 'barracks' of the local area. Not only does it make their characters into an NPC Guard, thereby boosting the NPC Guard Presence during off-peak hours and making it harder for Griefers to come in and rampage through a town during the smaller hours of the day, but the PCs who do this gain some small mechanical benefit, either a bonus to attack and damage, or a small bonus % to reputation gains with the faction they just helped and their allies?
Don't forget, Valkenr, that NPCs will also be attacking the three main cities and the towns. Bandits, Goblins, wild animals, Dragons looking to start up a Hoard, so on and so forth, if PCs aren't going out and clearing hexes regularly, the chances for an NPC Invasion are quite high.
Are you talking about marshals, or theoretical npc guards that evolved from speculation on these forums?
I'm talking about marshals.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the guards should be a purchasable item by a group. Perhaps we can just call them "hired help" as normal levels. "Mercenaries" for more specialized combatants who could serve as guards. Cost to hire would be based on level of the denizen. As we know NPC's will be present we can have them get into the RP, where you try to hire and simply stipulate what quality you are looking for. Perhaps you can put out applications during the construction process as it would take time to find recruits.
There is no reason we cannot have NPC's make as much sense as the rest of the process! This is Paizo and GW we are talking about!
In regards to super denizens...
Their special power or god-like strength could be attributed to what they are protecting. For instance a protector of a temple could be imbued with a piece of their gods very essence, gifting them with increased potential. To me most super mobs will have a story for their strength whether it is divine, harnessing old magic, or even just being min maxed with some special perks. Another option is giving skills the players do not have access to YET, which also serves as a kind of spoiler in what could be coming.
I think the guards should be a purchasable item by a group. Perhaps we can just call them "hired help" as normal levels. "Mercenaries" for more specialized combatants who could serve as guards. Cost to hire would be based on level of the denizen. As we know NPC's will be present we can have them get into the RP, where you try to hire and simply stipulate what quality you are looking for. Perhaps you can put out applications during the construction process as it would take time to find recruits.
There is no reason we cannot have NPC's make as much sense as the rest of the process! This is Paizo and GW we are talking about!
I like the idea of hirelings. After all, it is already a part of the Pathfinder mechanics. I could see NPCs setting the baseline cost of a hireling, while player characters will seek to either undercut the NPC cost of such activities (such as crafting an item, casting a spell, or protecting an area/individual/item) or charge more for more complex tasks that a simple NPC cannot possibly perform.
"You want an adamantine greatsword? Well, I don't think anyone sells those around here... but you might try Valkenr's Armory. I hear he has some experience with adamantine and his blades are among the finest in the land."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another idea that occurs to me, how about players being able to log their characters out in a 'barracks' of the local area. Not only does it make their characters into an NPC Guard, thereby boosting the NPC Guard Presence during off-peak hours and making it harder for Griefers to come in and rampage through a town during the smaller hours of the day, but the PCs who do this gain some small mechanical benefit, either a bonus to attack and damage, or a small bonus % to reputation gains with the faction they just helped and their allies?
Don't forget, Valkenr, that NPCs will also be attacking the three main cities and the towns. Bandits, Goblins, wild animals, Dragons looking to start up a Hoard, so on and so forth, if PCs aren't going out and clearing hexes regularly, the chances for an NPC Invasion are quite high.
Are you talking about marshals, or theoretical npc guards that evolved from speculation on these forums?
I'm talking about marshals.
Sorry, I went off on a tangent in a big way.
What I meant was the Marshals being 'boosted' by players logging off in the Barracks, effectively turning their character into an NPC Marshal for the duration of their time offline, granting the Marshals random abilities based upon the character and the way the player has leveled them.
Marshals spawned by the Game are your generic sword-and-board net-throwing anti-teleportation badasses.
Marshals using a logged-off character have a grab-bag of abilities dependant upon the character used to create them, plus the above.
In that way, I can see Griefers attempting late-night raids or murder-sprees having to face entirely unpredictable and dangerous enemies, rather than the 'bot' Marshals they might otherwise face.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry, I went off on a tangent in a big way.
What I meant was the Marshals being 'boosted' by players logging off in the Barracks, effectively turning their character into an NPC Marshal for the duration of their time offline, granting the Marshals random abilities based upon the character and the way the player has leveled them.
Marshals spawned by the Game are your generic sword-and-board net-throwing anti-teleportation badasses.
Marshals using a logged-off character have a grab-bag of abilities dependant upon the character used to create them, plus the above.
In that way, I can see Griefers attempting late-night raids or murder-sprees having to face entirely unpredictable and dangerous enemies, rather than the 'bot' Marshals they might otherwise face.
So you aren't talking about marshals, you are talking about hired NPC guards for player structures.
The system we have been given information on doesn't mention anything about handling volume, the only variable is time to reach the attacker, which seems to be an almost certainty unless you are on the outskirts of the protected area. As you move further away you are less likely to not lose your inventory, but it's still likely you will destroy theirs.
I'm not down for any idea that involves the player logging off in a certain way. It just fuel for some adolescent-adult that doesn't have enough power over people in real life so he lives his fantasy in a game. The only defense players should be able to provide is showing up to defend. A log-off ritual takes the demand off of any ranger/explorer play-styles who like to log off out in the middle of nowhere so they don't have to spend their first and last half-hour of play getting to where they where, or coming back to their settlement.
This is a topic we need a-lot more detail from GW on before we go off on too many tangents. How siege is handled would need to be decided first, If it's a system that can't be accomplished in just a few hours, log off rituals wouldn't do much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not down for any idea that involves the player logging off in a certain way. It just fuel for some adolescent-adult that doesn't have enough power over people in real life so he lives his fantasy in a game. The only defense players should be able to provide is showing up to defend. A log-off ritual takes the demand off of any ranger/explorer play-styles who like to log off out in the middle of nowhere so they don't have to spend their first and last half-hour of play getting to where they where, or coming back to their settlement.This is a topic we need a-lot more detail from GW on before we go off on too many tangents. How siege is handled would need to be decided first, If it's a system that can't be accomplished in just a few hours, log off...
well I believe logging off sounds to me that you have to be somewhere safe anyway.
Inns—Inns are public houses where characters can meet to conduct business face to face, to share stories, form groups, or just mingle with one another. Inns are typically built near roads or well-used trails. Characters can be safely logged off at an inn. Inns have limited local storage.
Now perhaps I may be misinterpreting, but actually having a special note saying you can safely log off somewhere, implies that it is not safe to log out elsewhere, my memory may be wrong but I think there was a mention of something like a 10-15 minute timeframe in which logging out in an unsafe location, leaves your character as a free shot for PC's or NPC's to have a free kill. Also I'm not too sure on the benefits of logging out in the middle of nowhere, I can't quite fathom too many situations where it would be logical.
1. we know the further from civilization you are, the greater the dangers are likely to be, IE stronger monsters etc... (In other words, stronger enemies that you fare far better against with a team).
2. Harvesting attracts strong monsters
Thus the more out in the middle of nowhere you are, the less good of an idea it is to want to log back in alone in said wilderness area, you'd likely be in extreme peril, plus if you aren't going back into town, since whatever you are gaining in the wilderness can be lost on death... either way you are going to want to be checking into an inn, or at least a hideout to stash your goods.
From the things and hints I get of the game, to me it sounds like solo players will likely be best off semi-close to towns. Where the weaker easier to kill alone monsters would be around.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The biggest benefit of logging in the wilderness is saving the travel time to an inn. If the nearest in is an hour away, it saves an explorer two hours of travel.
That's true I guess in the art of 100% pure exploring without a goal to gather or collect items, without better knowlege of the fast travel system I can't quite say one way or the other on that. It was stated at one point that whatever fast travel system they would do would take less than a half hour to reach a remote location
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Goblin Squad Member
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Again, sorry, I'm not being overly clear. I meant I was hoping there would be a building called the 'Barracks' in the Controlled or 'Safe' Hexes where players could log out to turn their characters into Marshals. To effectively make the Marshals tougher and give them different abilities than normal to make late-night Sieges or Zergs much less effective unless you have more troops than Sauron and the Empire combined.
To the other part of your topic (and you might want to tone down on the insinuations. I'm probably older than you by a decade at least.) is that a Player can choose to leave their character at the Barracks. Or they can leave them at the Smithy. Or the local College. Or out in the Wilds. Where-ever the character is, something should be the result.
Some examples:
Barracks means your character is 'added' to the pool of available NPC Guards (Marshals) if the region is under heavy attack when players are not around.
Smithy means your character spends the time offline pursing a trade of some kind, slowly leveling up (much slower than actual online training) and produces items for the local market, thereby increasing the item pool for people to buy, trade or use to craft more complex items.
Camping out in the Wild means your character is out of town, but is not necessarily vulnerable. Camping in the Wilds might net the player actually trapping an animal, or finding a node of rare herbs or a tree-node whose wood is highly valued for magical wands, etc etc.
Logging out at the Tavern means you've rented a room and going to sleep in a soft bed. Bonus XP for the first hour after you log back in.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I read that as "half hour to get back" which would be double speed. The time it takes to get out has to be significantly longer.
I think it makes a lot of sense to have one person scout for resources and a group harvest them. The scout would Send directions to the harvesting group and continue scouting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Completely agree with ya orc, short of this one part
Smithy means your character spends the time offline pursing a trade of some kind, slowly leveling up (much slower than actual online training) and produces items for the local market, thereby increasing the item pool for people to buy, trade or use to craft more complex items.
Why would it be more slow to level up a craft skill online, skills level up at the same pace, regardless of what you are doing, online or offline. You could rule that it makes less items per time as manually crafting etc... but time actually leveling up a skill, I believe is intended to be set in stone regardless of what a character is doing, online or offline
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Goblin Squad Member
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well I believe logging off sounds to me that you have to be somewhere safe anyway.Now perhaps I may be misinterpreting, but actually having a special note saying you can safely log off somewhere, implies that it is not safe to log out elsewhere, my memory may be wrong but I think there was a mention of something like a 10-15 minute timeframe in which logging out in an unsafe location, leaves your character as a free shot for PC's or NPC's to have a free kill. Also I'm not too sure on the benefits of logging out in the middle of nowhere, I can't quite fathom too many situations where it would be logical.
Inns—Inns are public houses where characters can meet to conduct business face to face, to share stories, form groups, or just mingle with one another. Inns are typically built near roads or well-used trails. Characters can be safely logged off at an inn. Inns have limited local storage.
Every game I have played keeps you in the game until you are out of combat for 10-30 seconds. They usually give you a choice(because you can always kill process) to stay and watch the exit-timer go down to ensure you are not attacked, or 'exit now' and hope nothing happens. I haven't seen any mention to 10-15 minutes, just that there is a period of time after exiting that keeps you online so you can't do the infamous earth-rise and alt+f4 out of combat.
The "unsafe" part is potentially logging into a mob of NPC's or, depending on how log-in's are handled a PC could kill you before you load the game fully, or get the upper hand the moment you are available to attack.
To the other part of your topic (and you might want to tone down on the insinuations. I'm probably older than you by a decade at least.) is that a Player can choose to leave their character at the Barracks. Or they can leave them at the Smithy. Or the local College. Or out in the Wilds. Where-ever the character is, something should be the result.[further explanation]
Yes someone can choose, but a charter can kick people out who don't do the log-off ritual that most benefits the charter. And the charters that force the most beneficial log-off rituals will rise to the top. And I'm not for any mechanics that encourage that kind of behavior.
If there are log-out benefits, i either want them to be exclusively beneficial to the player, or exclusively beneficial to the charter. And all charter benefiting actions are all equal to each-other no matter how many people are doing which action. Charter benefits would be ridiculously hard to balance.
Also, if there is going to be a free option for the game(which i think has been discussed but won't be added for a few years) a bolstering system can be viciously exploited.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Every game I have played keeps you in the game until you are out of combat for 10-30 seconds. They usually give you a choice(because you can always kill process) to stay and watch the exit-timer go down to ensure you are not attacked, or 'exit now' and hope nothing happens. I haven't seen any mention to 10-15 minutes, just that there is a period of time after exiting that keeps you online so you can't do the infamous earth-rise and alt+f4 out of combat.
Eve, which I believe is going to be the closest for some comparisons, goes with a full minute if there is not pvp going on in the area, 15 minutes if there is. It may vary I can't really say with any certainty, but I still think 10 seconds or just long enough for the game to load, sounds very much on the extreme low. Most other games don't do anything to specify logging out in other places as unsafe either, which is why I'm thinking it will very possibly be either a full minute or possibly longer for logging out while un-threatened.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Eve, which I believe is going to be the closest for some comparisons, goes with a full minute if there is not pvp going on in the area, 15 minutes if there is. It may vary I can't really say with any certainty, but I still think 10 seconds or just long enough for the game to load, sounds very much on the extreme low. Most other games don't do anything to specify logging out in other places as unsafe either, which is why I'm thinking it will very possibly be either a full minute or possibly longer for logging out while un-threatened.Every game I have played keeps you in the game until you are out of combat for 10-30 seconds. They usually give you a choice(because you can always kill process) to stay and watch the exit-timer go down to ensure you are not attacked, or 'exit now' and hope nothing happens. I haven't seen any mention to 10-15 minutes, just that there is a period of time after exiting that keeps you online so you can't do the infamous earth-rise and alt+f4 out of combat.
IMO 30 seconds should be the longest the game should hold you in. People shouldn't be punished for having to step away because of real life influences, or have to undergo a log-out ritual.
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Goblin Squad Member
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IMO 30 seconds should be the longest the game should hold you in. People shouldn't be punished for having to step away because of real life influences, or have to undergo a log-out ritual.
While part understood, it also does lead into some debates, if a guild regularly say walls off the area they harvest in (IE they guard around it), how do you work around people logging in in the center of what they normally protect etc... warzones also lead to odd confusion, guild x is planning to supprise attack guild Y. over the course of a few days, guild X slowly drifts in people 1 at a time into the city of guild Y and has them log out while on neutural terms, say they slip in 50 of their army of 150, when they come into battle with their 100 forces outside, and the city is focused on protecting the outside, the 50 pop in together, delivering a supprise fierce ambush from the inside.
IMO the best workaround for that development side, is for logins to be set to bind points, bind points should be always allowed at NPC factions, always be allowed in ones own towns, but you or your allience has to be specifically permitted to bind within player cities that you are indifferent with. To me players popping out of nowhere right before your eyes, is more jarring then enemies popping out of nowhere. Now game mechanic wise you could say that the same way that you are resurected, the person who does the ressurections also can summon, and have a hearthstone equivelent item that lorewise sends a message spell to the summoner to have him call you back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the neutral players can walk in one at a time before hostilities are declared, what happens to the characters who have walked in before the declaration? Can't we apply that same mechanic to characters who logged in the contested area?
Well in the case that they are in the town when hostilities are declared, then the defense can deal with the internal threat, and then attack the external threat, as well as have the potential to figure it out themselves when seeing 50 people from the guild in their town a the same time, and have the option to remove the threat. A threat that can be dealt with is one thing, a threat that can remain invisible and untouchable until their leader signals them in ventrilo, it is plausible and believable on the defense (as they would log in in their bind point/the inn there, so they are coming out of their own room, not just behind enemy lines)
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Goblin Squad Member
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/tangent
I would like to see a siege be a tiered event, and a place where some immersion needs to be sacrificed to prevent overly-complex mechanics or situations, as described, that exploit game features. The amount of time required to take a structure/settlement shouldn't be quick at all. For example i would like to see something like this for taking a city:
1. Clear the surrounding guards
2. Break down a section of wall
3. Work your way towards the central 'town hall'(could be more walled areas)
4. Destroy or break into and capture 'town hall'
with similar systems for other targets.
If it is possible to destroy a building overnight, this game will see a huge drop in potential players. It needs to be something hard to accomplish and easy to defend against. Preferably I would like to see sieges handled in large scale combat instances. RoE should be enforced by game mechanics. Something like the Roman Empire should not be possible here. If immersion is needed, there can be a larger governing NPC faction, or celestial intervention that prevents expansion/conquest of that magnitude.
/backOnTopic
If there are a bunch of hostile enemies in a town when an attack is declared, they can either get killed by interior guards, or get teleported outside. Preferably i would like to see them killed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... over the course of a few days, guild X slowly drifts in people 1 at a time into the city of guild Y and has them log out while on neutural terms, say they slip in 50 of their army of 150, when they come into battle with their 100 forces outside, and the city is focused on protecting the outside, the 50 pop in together, delivering a supprise fierce ambush from the inside.
I very strongly believe that any character inside player-controlled territory should be automatically ported outside if their faction is "at war" with the controlling faction.
It shouldn't be possible to attack the inner defenses until the outer defenses have been breached.
Sneaking enemies inside the defenses prior to an attack is a time honored tradition, going back at least as far as the Trojan Horse, probably farther. If a game system prevents it, it's limiting player behavior in favor of hand holding.
What you could ask the developers to consider is a system that prohibits unaligned players from logging out while in the city, directing them to head outside first. It accomplishes the same thing, but it's not as heavy handed and makes sense. Cities normally do not allow people with no business to remain in town at night (which is what logging simulates), that's why they close the gates.
In fact, logging out inside a city could actually be one of the benefits of city dwellers that pay taxes; why should you allow squatters in the first place? Other than starting areas and open wilderness, logging out in a player city should be seen as a privilege, not a right.
Problem with that is, there is such a thing as a sleeper. Someone builds up a long term persona, then at the right time, attacks. There is no way to prevent that. They log in, drop your affiliation, immediately join the other, and go to it. I see no way to get around that devious plan unless the developers do as you suggest and auto-port them outside the city walls, which is punishing smart players while protecting the not so smart ones. In PvP, intelligence should be rewarded, not punished. If it makes the game harder, good. You are supposed to be fighting other players, not having the system treat them like NPC mobs.
Insta killing enemies that were inside the walls prior to the war being called is not any different that being insta killed by a player ability or spell, and if the one is not allowed, neither should this be. What could be worse than dying to a random number, than to be insta killed simply because you were trying to play smart?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sneaking enemies inside the defenses prior to an attack is a time honored tradition...
I agree, and I'd really like to see some ideas for skills or mechanics that would support this, but letting people log out while their faction is not at war and then log in while their faction is at war and be able to remain inside and wreak havoc - well, that seems like a bad idea.
On the other hand, I have absolutely no problem with characters walking into town before their faction is at war and remaining inside once that war starts. My objection is to them logging back in while the war is hot.
Cities normally do not allow people with no business to remain in town at night (which is what logging simulates), that's why they close the gates.
I may be wrong, but I'm not going to just take your word for that. I am not at all convinced that gated cities kicked out all the strangers before they locked the gates. I think those places with gates more likely just shut the gates to avoid being attacked from outside while everyone was asleep. I'm happy to change my mind if you can present some reasonable evidence that I'm wrong.
In PvP, intelligence should be rewarded, not punished.
I hardly call it "intelligence" to exploit an obvious, impossible-to-defend-against vulnerability.
That vulnerability only exists because of the silliness of removing characters from the game world while the players is logged off. If those characters remained in the game world, there wouldn't be any need at all for any kind of action, because as soon as the war starts, the interior defenders can go around and kill everyone that is a threat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Problem with that is, there is such a thing as a sleeper. Someone builds up a long term persona, then at the right time, attacks. There is no way to prevent that. They log in, drop your affiliation, immediately join the other, and go to it.
I generally agree that stealth and subterfuge should have a place in game warfare, but:
A threat that can be dealt with is one thing, a threat that can remain invisible and untouchable until their leader signals them in ventrilo, it is plausible and believable on the defense (as they would log in in their bind point/the inn there, so they are coming out of their own room, not just behind enemy lines)
In my mind, every infiltrator has a chance of betraying himself and the mission, and the longer they remain in the city, the greater the odds of a slip. A GM running a PnP game would assign a chance that something can go wrong with infiltrators, and depending on his rolls, might eliminate many/most of the infiltrators before the battle. Again, depending on the rolls, she might even allow defenders to ambush the attacking army if they choose.
If the game can't do something on that level, then it should just kick the infiltrators outside the town.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As long as player run communities have some ability to control who logs out/in in thier cities, I don't see much of a problem.
You could have 1 bind point that is located outside the walls, but close enough to offer some protection of the guards...a "camp" or something like that...where visitors who do not have permission to "stay" within the city are bound to when they logout anywhere within vicinity of the city limits. You could have other bind points within the city limits where characters who DO have permission to "stay" within the city are bound to when they logout/in within the city limits.
You could also potentialy give the controllers of the city an "eject the foreigners" type ability where they could instruct the Town Guard to remove individuals based upon thier group affiliation from the City limits. This could work on something like a 10 minute timer...where the controllers issued the order...and 10 minutes later anyone who was of the effected groups who was still logged out would have thier bind points moved from within the city to the bind point outside.
This would allow for infiltration type manuvers, but still give the city controllers a reasonable level of control in terms of preventing "gamey" type moves to bypass the defences. It's reasonable to suggest that if the infiltrators haven't logged in within 10 minutes or so of when the order to eject them has been given...then the guards have managed to roust them out.
Beyond that...if the controlers of the city have chosen thier allies poorly or haven't taken the proper precautions to secure thier community...they have only themselves to blame for allowing a 5th column in.
Note that most large, well developed communities that are built with defence in mind, ideally should have multiple layers of defences...getting into the city walls is one thing..breaching the inner keep is another.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It actually seems more heavy-handed to me to let the players who control a Fort or Settlement actively expel any foreigners than to automatically expel certain factions on log in.
I would think sneaking into a Fort/Settlement prior to an attack should be fair play, as long as your character is active and able to be attacked as soon as hostilities start, so that the defenders can sweep the area and deal with any enemies at that time.
The problem arises from players being able to remain in the city (logged out), utterly undetectable, and then log in at a moment's notice to cause mayhem, where the defenders have absolutely no chance to establish a perimeter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It actually seems more heavy-handed to me to let the players who control a Fort or Settlement actively expel any foreigners than to automatically expel certain factions on log in.
I would think sneaking into a Fort/Settlement prior to an attack should be fair play, as long as your character is active and able to be attacked as soon as hostilities start, so that the defenders can sweep the area and deal with any enemies at that time.
The problem arises from players being able to remain in the city (logged out), utterly undetectable, and then log in at a moment's notice to cause mayhem, where the defenders have absolutely no chance to establish a perimeter.
For the "Eject the Foreigners" function...I was talking about Offline/logged out characters ONLY. If you are online, you have to be dealt with in person.