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Indeed! Ragnar will make many orphans throughout the realm!
Okay, boys more discussion time. I am not too sure about the canned Combat Ratings and "required" rewards in XP for said CR encounters, etc. It doesn't feel right that I am essentially unable to increase or decrease the threats to match the party's uberness as the game goes on. I would much rather be able to give you special items/abilities/friends whatever without the situation being viewed as overpowered. I also dislike some of the "forced" reasons why a particular monster who has no business being wherever he is is just inserted because his specific DR/natural abilities/special attacks happen to be challenging to the party. I would rather go with more appropriate enemies for the area than scouring the bestiaries to find monsters to finagle in "just" because they are your party's weaknesses. If you wipe the floor with them because you happen to be prepared for that type of enemy, then that's exactly what happens. Opinions?
Second discussion point: Money. In 3.5/PFRPG it's ridiculous. Eventually you guys will be requiring gold in the thousands in order to gear up which is just obscene. In a real medieval setting, fantasy or otherwise, if there were more than 100,000 actual gold crowns minted for use in circulation at one time it would have been a miracle. The notion in order to buy a full set of magical armor you would have be acquiring and spending that much money is ludicrous to me. I am of the mind to reducing costs and therefore reducing the absurd rewards. Or we can just assume you are all savvy adventurers and have GM-metagame infinite bags of wealth holding because they are sold on every street corner along with spare socks and sturdy cloaks.
Obviously we can just run everything as the rules say to see how it feels, but it just seems...I mean, the heavy-handedness of the rules...lack of control...gah! I just don't like it!!!!
I admit this freely however...not knowing exactly how to balance things in this game yet, it could be I could ruin this experience for you if I change things and it ends up throwing things out of whack. Personally I think most of the things I want to change actually errs on the side of PC greatness. And given there are thousands, thousands of monsters out there, some of which are super lethal, I really don't see having a problem giving you challenges.
But I want your input nonetheless. Please tell me what you are thinking.
Oh yeah!
As far as Ferocity v. Sacred Tattoo, that's actual your choice. I see no conflicts with you choosing that. Those are alternative traits for you as the player to use to distinguish your PC. :) If you're just asking whether I like it, I do.
I'd say lets just stick to the way it is in the book. IF there are certain monsters/threats you wanna switch out I have complete faith in you for having a reason to. If we're in the jungle fighting a steel elemental just because I would be more than willing to let you swap it for something more likely. Same thing goes with rewards.
As for gold, I know this isn't a traditional medieval setting. If it was, very few people would be running around with excellent chain/platemail etc. I think we should stick to the way it is. If we are required to stock up on gold, we as PCs better hope to hell we have a nice hidey-hole or treasurey to keep massive heavy amounts of it.
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Fortunately you won't have to hear my sarcastic comments or see my eye-rolling about some of the more ridiculous things then if we're going to go by the rules.
Also, I am thinking of allowing martial and supernatural abilities to have a fatigue system like the magic one I described. I really believe the players should be allowed to use their abilities that make them their class. The rule imposed limitations should NEVER trump something roleplaying appropriate. And I think allowing extra moves that start to hurt you allows that player choice. I am still getting that together, but it is one houserule I want to add badly, so of you have any objections to that now is the time to bring it up.
I agree, rules no trumpada roleplaying.
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The way I'm seeing this world in my mind is like I'd view an MMO. High magic, lots of things that really don't always make sense because, well, it's an alternate world. That being said, you can still use common sense, especially when it comes to the use of monsters and challenges. That's the dominion of the Game Master.
We're not your average players. Most Dungeons and Dragons gamers are building characters like they would in an MMO, simply trying to min/max their stats and equipment in the hopes to become THE MOST POWER CHARACTER EVEEEEEEEEER!
We're not like that. So I'd suggest you make adjustments to the encounters as needed, and write in reasons why monsters/encounters would be in the places they are in the first place. For instance, the Steel Elemental in the jungle that ODV mentioned. It wouldn't take much creative work to describe why it's there in the first place, some cool kind of backstory.
As far as gold goes, I suppose we could just leave things the same and ignore the foolishness of carrying 10,000 gold around. Or perhaps there is some kind of intricate banking system like in Harry Potter? Not sure :)
And regarding Corinne, I currently have her at the age of 16. I think it's funny that Ragnar's mighty band of heroes has him babysitting two young orphans, haha! Oh the jokes in Valhalla for that one!
Holy moly! Two of you watching the thread almost at the same time? It's like my posting dream come true.
That said, you're right cute backstories for why something is there are fun and add flavor. It's the contrived backstories I have read so many times as justifications for why these three normally bitter enemy races of monsters would not kill each other but fight a random group of adventurers who wander into their specific room in a dungeon just because their abilities combo in such an unusual way that it might be really challenging for the PCs unless they picked up the uber wand in room B2. That s%** makes me sick as a GM.
So we'll play the encounters as they come. Some of the stuff as written kind of requires battle tactics, so the once again the maps will end up being important. Pretty sure I will be able to post some links for the maps as we do this, so shouldn't be a problem.
Free meta-knowledge: You will need things like bags of holding for some of the treasures found throughout these modules. I am seriously willing to allow you all to have a personal bag of holding that carries only wealth or treasure and would not be something you can put usable items into or access during stressful circumstances. That way I would "in character" to hand-wave why you're able to carry around a solid gold chair or 13' x 15' expensive painting that the module decides is the available treasure of the band river pixies you just slaughtered.
Did you all get the Kingmaker Player Guide I linked a while back? That should help with backstory for the area, and it's 100% player knowledge safe.
Yep, I have the Kingmaker Guide. I've been reading over it.
I'm in the middle of gaming so cant check nonstop.
Looks good. I'd feel like we're cheating if we all got personal bags of holding haha... Maybe when it gets to those instances we have a crew we can send back with goods or something? Or mules... I dunno.
It's the contrived backstories I have read so many times as justifications for why these three normally bitter enemy races of monsters would not kill each other but fight a random group of adventurers who wander into their specific room in a dungeon just because their abilities combo in such an unusual way that it might be really challenging for the PCs unless they picked up the uber wand in room B2. That s%#% makes me sick as a GM.
Agreed 110%
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Ironically, it was that very thing that Dagon would accuse me of in our play by post. He said nothing I created in terms of encounters made any sense. From the Cave Troll, to the Undead outside the passage, to the Bog Octopus or the Slaneesh Kurgan, it was all ridiculous and stupid in his opinion.
I try very hard to make sure everything makes sense and has a proper back story, so I took a lot of offense to that.
Anyhow, my point is I know you'll take the somewhat silly mechanics of Dungeons and Dragons and ground them a bit in Warhammer sensibilities. Looking forward to it!
Hey all, thoughts on this...
I was looking at using a shield and sword but shield bashing is absolutely hampering. There is no reason to do it. It does 1d4 of damage and makes it so using your main hand weapon is -6 offhand -4.
I was looking at feats to make Ragnar a very FRONTLINE fighter, bashing shield, stabbing forward, gutting his opponents and leaving their entrails at his feet.
As it stands I can make an attack and defend pretty hard but shield bashing will never be possible. I mean even if it's a hit to then daze or something?
Or maybe not. If not I can always just describe it as such but lookin for other thoughts on it.
My thoughts would be you can shield bash for either 1d4 damage or perhaps a dazing effect to make the main attack easier to hit, losing the defense bonus for the shield on the next turn.
To hit with shield could be a normal to hitt but if connects the main sword/axe etc attack would be at a (+5) and then losing my shield bonus to AC til my next turn?
I'm in the middle of gaming so cant check nonstop.
Looks good. I'd feel like we're cheating if we all got personal bags of holding haha... Maybe when it gets to those instances we have a crew we can send back with goods or something? Or mules... I dunno.
That kind of amounts to the same thing...
My main motivation. Is too avoid wasting time while you have to describe how you remove the treasure assigned to you from the 3-story pit you had to freehand rockclimb entry into. That's jut an example, but realistically the sheer volume of treasure (since that's how you pay for that adamantine helmet and all weather cloak of useful things worth 75,000 gold) will become very cumbersome to have try and move around. And since you will never "know" if a dungeon will self-destruct in 5 seconds, you may not have any other opportunities to get said treasure except when first located.
I'm sure we won't get to that point right away. Let's play it by ear. Maybe we'll have to send back to the swordlords of Rostland for such bags. To keep our favor. I dunno.
I'm actually cool with the bag of holding treasure, but I think that's only because I think Pinvendor is trying to tell us something. It makes me laugh to think of us getting an NPC like in Gamers: Dorkness Rising (was free on Netflix) that's just a mule who carries our chest of gold on his back. Once we die he just stands where we left him holding all our in a dark cave where we left him. Also will be issued free daggers of cutting to search the bellies of our victims? I hear it's a pretty common hiding place for monsters and enemies in general to hide their loot. Perhaps that is where we can store all our treasure! We'll know where it's at all times and know exactly how to get it!!
Seriously now, I trust Pinvendor's judgement just like I trust Drachenfels as a GM. If it doesn't break the game or seem completely out of place I don't think it's a problem. For instance, a steel golem in a jungle without starting to rust is complete BS! After working in a humid climate cleaning rust from critical pieces of equipment, I can tell you it would happen and FAST. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's all in the description. We can't fight orcs and goblins forever it'd get too boring, we need challenges so a rust monster with a steel golem companion might be more what we're looking for. Can anyone explain why creature's blindly attack PC's anyway? You'd think a beast with fight or flight instincts would choose flight a tiny bit more often.... Something I noticed playing Skyrim.
Speaking of rules. I may need to have a sit down with ODV in person so he can go over the rules with me and how things work. I learn better that way anyhow. That being said, it looks like things are shaping up slow but sure. And I also agree with the play it by ear thing when it comes to treasure and such. We'll figure something out.
I'd like to see us start simple and then advance into greatness, or die horrible deaths trying. Whatever the case, I just look forward to trying out a new world for the first time in 20 years. I've been playing Warhammer a long long time :)
Very cool looking character, Xulgag!
Excellent!! I am only half kidding, but often times there are some odd treasures dished out.
@Stavo: I forgot to send those links! I will do that today.
As far as rules, we're definitely going to go through a couple bits of combat before real play starts. I need practice with it, too.
Arielle is going to be built a little differently than other PCs. After doing my homework, I found out summoners have the potential to be ridiculous. One 3rd party supplement described a combat monster of epic proportions when building the eidolon all rules legal!
You could max out the full seven natural attacks, take six sets of arms, and you get three main hand, seven natural, and 33 secondary attacks for 43 swings, each of which has various attack and damage values
So that's obviously an extreme example, but I don't want her to be overshadowing you guys as the players with the ability to summon an, "I win" eidolon. I chose the summoner class for her just to fit the neato idea I have for her, and so I believe I will probably tone down any role she plays in combat and allow some other perks to compensate. One of which will be the summoning of a healer type eidolon which wouldn't strictly speaking be normally available.
My goal with her is mainly to provide something for which I think will allow some very unique roleplaying opportunities and allow your PCs to have a very human response to a little girl who brings out different types of emotions than someone older would. If she ends up not fitting in well, I can give her an exit easy enough. But hopefully you will like her as much as I do! :D
What about the starting gold Pinvendor!!!!????! The gilders! I need them!
ODV and I have pretty much nailed down why Ragnar is in and around the area of Kingmaker's starting point, the country of Brevoy.
I know how Ragnar and Xulgag will be introduced to Arielle, but I do need to work out with Drachenfels how Corinne and Arielle meet exactly since that will play into where she is when Ragnar and Xulgag meet Arielle.
This meeting will be our preview battle. you get to beat down a little girl!!! Naw, that's a joke. But essentially we will see how you handle the strange things you encounter.
I appreciate all of your patience. There's a lot for me to read, and I know you are all itching to play. We will get started soon, promise.
This also means Ragnar starts with the max gold option since we determined he's of a wealthy family. We can assume the same for all of you for balance purposes, or you can roleplay it based on where you think your character is. Corinne's money will probably be determined by what he and I discuss for her introduction to Arielle and Ragnar/Xulgag.
@Stavo: Unless you desire differently, I am assuming that Xulgag and Ragnar are already acquainted, possibly fast-friends? This would mean you also would receive max starting gold since Ragnar is rich. You could always decide that as an aesthetic you might chose a lesser amount to provide you with only what you need despite the generosity of your friend. You and Ragnar work out if you are friends before the game starts or if you meet on the road from Restov, Brevoy.
@Drachenfels: I know how I would like to first allow you to "learn" of Arielle, but where you first meet her is what we should discuss.
I rolled randomly and got max gold. Monks don't need much and Monks don't desire much. Monks are better off with less stuff, they lose most abilities when you factor in weight, not that people usually care I figure Xulgag would just be that way out of choice. Plus who needs weapons when you can pummel them with your fists!
Sure, but maybe you could buy a horse, or a mule to carry more liquor!
I don't foresee Corinne being very rich. I know I need to look beyond the scope of what I'm used to if I'm going to survive, so I'll bend a knee to what you think is best.
As far as where I meet Arielle, that could be anywhere really. I'll leave it up to you. I'm open to whatever. All I know is that meeting her changed the course of Corinne's everyday life.
My main focus in the near future is learning the rules, or I won't get very far in this story :)
@Drachenfels: Don't worry, plenty of time for that. Once I feel comfortable with the character creation and exploratory on the combat rules, we'll be starting probably next week for sure maybe sooner if I get some of this accomplished over the weekend. The module is all laid out for me, so the only real prepwork I have to do is understand it and add the personal flavor that helps make it real for each of your characters.
So I will ask you this, Corinne. . Do you want to have met Arielle before the boys or at the same time? That will change how that goes done a bit and what "vision" you have regarding Arielle referencing Ragnar and Xulgag.
I'd think perhaps shortly before. Perhaps Ragnar and Xulgag had been travelling together and they encounter Arielle and Corinne.
Drachenfels something to remember about D&D starting gold is that it's meant for you to buy all the stuff your character has accumulated over their life up until this point. It's not that they just received a chest of gold and went on a shopping spree. You may have a lot of gold to start out with but once you buy stuff your stuff can look like crap because it's old or inherited. Just my 2 cents.
I can't believe I didn't think of picking up a pack mule! I guess I'm still in the mindset of WFRP where everyone dies and everything nice gets broken.
What Stavo said! Yeah you'd use this money to buy your rope, lock picks etc.
I think a drunken monk must always own some form of beast of burden. It just makes sense.
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I was planning on using the barbarian as a pack mule.
Huh, I guess that makes sense then. It'll take some time to get used to the crazy world of Dungeons and Dragons again, but I'll eventually wrap my mind around it :)
@Xulgag: We haven't really discussed your backstory much. I know you said you wanted to work on it this weekend, so feel free to do so. I will definitely see what I can do to make it relevant. Both Ragnar/Ulthred and Corinne already have some stake in the future of the campaign based on the backstories we have discussed, partially incidental, partially by design. While none of your backstory really needs to influence why you happened to decide to come up to this part of the Inner Sea Region.
If there is some element you want to provide that you would like to see included as possible complication, evolution, or lifegoal, you can send me a PM if you would like to keep it a secret or just post it here of course.
I am rather excited to get this going!
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I think that might answer all your questions ^ I'm not really planning on much but trying to keep Xulgag on the straight and narrow as far as his order goes. They have a great entry in the Faiths of Balance book on information on Irori. Basically, everyone of that faith is trying to be like Bruce Lee and I'm down for that.
Topic: How would you like me to handle 'secret' rolls?
Obviously I can just use dice at my computer, or I can roll inside of spoilers so it's fair and can be recorded. Sometimes it's nice to be able to look back through the thread and know what roll caused something to happen. I personally think I can trust you guys not to metagame, (too much :P) but sometimes reactions and such are more real when you're just suddenly ambushed or the trap goes off or a hulking brute spouts off spores that makes him look suddenly sexually attractive and is it getting hot in here?
Also I have seen variable Skill checks done two ways.
- I can say, "Roll Knowledge - Dungeoneering" wait for your posts and then describe what each of you experience based on your roll v. the variable DCs on the chart.
- Alternatively, I can spoiler each level of DC in the post. Like this:
DC 10:It's a dungeon. You feel smartDC 15:In addition to DC 10, you remember there is supposed to be an old dwarven treasury vault in the area for which this could be the entrance.DC 25:In addition to DCs 10 & 15, you realize the reason there are no dwarves in the vault anymore is because a Lord of Change now resides inside and entering means certain madness.
You tell me what you think would be best. I like the second one myself, because it allows you to roleplay and make more elaborate posts without having to wait for me to respond.
I like the bio excerpts. Good stuff in there. Is there anything you would like to add to give your path purpose?
Possible types of options:
- A pilgrimage to sites holy to Irori
- Seeking out various secluded masters to learn Irorian techniques
- A specific list of challenges given which "exemplifies" the path? (E.g. wrestling a chimera, outdrinking an Ulfen warrior hall and then performing a gymnastic routine, maintaining meditation despite being bitten by an ant colony)
- A rite of passage like you are given a holy symbol of Irori that you are not allowed to part with, but your fellow Irorian monks will seek you out and attempt to duel you or steal it or whatever in order to test your worthiness.
If you would like to add a little something to define your character's reason for journeying, it would be fun and definitely help really tie your character into the events, since occasionally the spotlight will be on you and your party mates will be able to feel good at seeing you achieve your goals, too.
@Xulgag: Keep in mind these character goals are not the point of the campaign, and if you get to do one or two of them it's mostly added flavor. I kind of see this like the progression of many fighting animes. The main character is journeying and acquires unique companions who all get an episode or two where their personal history comes out and occasionally complicates things, but ultimately complements the journey and the other heroes of the story are there to lend one another assistance or understanding which they wouldn't have expected. Whether all the plot hooks are neatly sewed up by the end is irrelevant, it just makes the characters more real, and less a "convenient" ability housed in a person that's just there to explain why the hero can accomplish some goals he's not able to do on his own.
I like your characters, Stavo, so please don't shortchange their significance to the story we are making together. :)
As for knowledge rolls etc. If its a specific character why not roll it for us and post it in spoilers? You know you want Ragnar to roll dungeoneerring and rather than wait for me to roll you roll for me using my bonuses which will be on my profile. That way I only can check out EXACTLY what it is you want me to know.
Though, of it's multiple players rolling that second option is quite fine. Errything still gets resolved in two posts (GM & Char)
Ok I vote second option, I think that works well. Also for combats will we do it like WH where you'll give us their armor class and hitpoints? Or at least just AC do we can role play the fighting better.
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Also, damn Stavo, that backstory was excellent. I had a mind to write up our encounter as well but you did a great job with it.
Admittedly until we run a couple of combats, I seriously doubt I will be able to "LITE"en it up, so we will be running it as it is written. I am not certain what information I can provide that will not compromise certain things, since an enemy's ability to fight might belie their appearance and vice versa.
Anticipate the preview combat will be fairly slow, but we will always have the discussion thread to go ahead and work out how something should work based on the rules.
@Corinne the Chroniker: Honestly, I would expect Corinne to have a quite a bit of money. Given her ability to bend time, my expectation is she is moderately successful as a pickpocket or cat burglar of those even of modest means to have magical guardians and traps for their money. Maybe she never takes a lot or is only there to get a specific thing.
Alternatively, perhaps she just uses her ability to be in exactly the right place when she needs to be. After walking forward and backwards through time in a crowded market a couple of times, she knows exactly where to walk in order to swipe that jeweled Necklace of Nimbleness. Lots of ways to justify why she might have items and equipment "equivalent" to the starting gold.
It's most certainly possible she doesn't care about wealth, and perhaps gives it away freely to her street urchin acquaintances. I also picture some bolt hole where perhaps Corinne has squirreled away objects of interest or perhaps treasures not easily fenced that she could either use if she ever decided to leave on an adventure or sell in a pinch. Her "IRA" as it were.
Of course, it's all your view not mine. :) Just throwing my two cents in to support Stavo's point on the wealth.
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Dudes, it's ridiculous. I can't help myself. As I sit here working, I am "writing" the intro stories in my head. All the stuff leading up to and immediately following Arielle's introduction to your PCs is just racing through my brain.
Gah! I really want to get this going. Maybe I am crazy but I just can't wait to read your roleplay. I honestly have no idea how you are going to react, plus I can't wait to see how you guys do with the Kingmaker AP. Did you know it's a sandbox adventure? There's not really a linear path which you have to take to get to the end of each of the 6 modules. Which actually will allow me a lot of leeway to add my own stuff and include any personal evolution/conflict you would like to see for your PCs.
I was even thinking if you find yourselves liking a particular section of our story, I can extend certain portions of the game that are not included in the modules without restricting you or trying to railroad you back on the path to "completion". We can suspend level advancement and reward your characters with a bonus skill rank or two and even a bonus feat to represent your growth without truly breaking the level range each of the 6 modules provide.
My imagination is pumping out ideas constantly. I feel like I am about to burst and realize I need to start writing all this stuff down, since I will never remember it by the time we get to module 2 in 6 months. Lol, okay it won't take that long, but hey! whatever, I'm down. :)
I can't wait to get started!! Tell me what I can do to infect you with my enthusiasm!!
Also as of this moment, I vow not to try and force the game I want out of you. If you ever feel that I am, call me out, and I will take a step back. I want you guys to think this is a great experience.
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Your enthusiasm is already inside me. All over my face and hands, leaking into my every nook and cranny, a bright warmth ebbinbg away at my insides...
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Also, if it's possible for me to request this, I would like to try and keep the gameplay thread pretty tidy. I am totally fine with OOC chatter included inside of a character's IC post. However if we could try to make any full OOC posts in the discussion thread, I would appreciate it. I am hoping to keep the Gameplay thread just showing the character avatars who are IC and not have any of our OOC avatars.
Just a random request, but probably not anything I am going to lose any sleep over.
Your enthusiasm is already inside me. All over my face and hands, leaking into my every nook and cranny, a bright warmth ebbing away at my insides...
I will ignore the obvious homoerotic jokes, and just say:
That is what I am talking about!
My thoughts would be you can shield bash for either 1d4 damage or perhaps a dazing effect to make the main attack easier to hit, losing the defense bonus for the shield on the next turn.
To hit with shield could be a normal to-hit but if connects the main sword/axe etc attack would be at a (+5) and then losing my shield bonus to AC til my next turn?
I haven't forgotten about this question, don't worry. I haven't had time to review it all yet.
Any one else have a rules question for me to investigate?