Health, Wounds, and Vigor

[Arbalester]

This was part of the discussion about Combat mechanics, but I'd like to put it here. Putting aside all the discussions about spellcasting, targeting, first-person vs. third-person, I'd just like to focus on health. How is PFO going to handle health, and how health decreases?

Personally, this is one of my annoyances in theme-park games; the sheer number of times a character can take a battleaxe to the chest and keep swinging. Look, I know the games are supposed to have an epic feeling, but come on! You can only take so many hits before you should just be a pile of mush, regardless of how many hit points you still have left. And shouldn't losing and restoring that much blood/limbs that quickly have some effect on your mind? If you're taking thousands of damage a second, and being healed for thousands of damage a second, I'd expect you to die from shock after less than a minute. In most MMOs, it's not too bad, but with how high damage/healing numbers have been climbing in WoW, it's really broken the immersion for me (not like other parts of the game didn't shatter immersion years ago, but that's getting off topic).

Three games deserving mention here. LOTRO came up with a fun solution; that green bar your character has isn't a Health bar; it's a Morale bar. When you get hit, it's not your physical vitality that's decreasing so much as your vigor and will to fight. If you take too many hits and your Morale drops to 0, you're so demoralized that you're forced to retreat back to safer ground. Mechanically, it's almost identical to WoW's death and graveyard system, but, with just a few word changes, the system sounds better and makes more sense. Healing effects aren't restoring limbs and closing wounds so much as inspiring your allies and exhorting them to keep fighting, no matter the odds. The names for healing spells include Raise the Spirit, Words of Courage, Bolster Courage, Rallying Cry, etc.

The other game I'll mention is Pathfinder itself. The core game uses the old health=vitality system that D&D started with and WoW used, but some GMs have come up with other names for the system while still using the same rule. Morale, sanity, happiness, etc.

But the system I'm hoping PFO looks the closest at is a variant rule in Ultimate Combat: The Vigor system. Here's a link to the Reference Document page about it:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/variants/woundsAndVigor.h tml

Basically, it gives each character two health pools: the Wound pool and the Vigor pool. The Wound pool represents physical health and vitality, while the Vigor pool represents your stamina and will to fight. Most damage is subtracted from Vigor, representing that your character blocked or dodged the blow, but is slowly tiring from the battle. Particularly damaging blows or spells can hit Wound directly, tearing muscle and drawing blood. Likewise, most healing spells restore Vigor, and Wound restoration is difficult, especially in-combat. With a day or two of rest, though, you heal a lot of Wounds. It's a very fun variant, especially for low-magic campaigns, where healing is scarce, and I'd love to see this implemented in PFO.

Also, what about if characters take stat penalties for having less-than-full Wounds, or just losing all your Vigor? After all, if you've been stabbed a few times, you probably won't be running, swinging your weapon, or casting spells quite as well. I could see several problems with this, namely that one bad turn in a battle invites further failures, but if the penalties were removed while you had any Vigor left, then healing spells/skills would help turn the tide of battle back to your side. It would certainly add some depth to the game, and make fights a little more interesting than just "I attack I attack I attack I attack I attack I'm suddenly dead." Once people on both sides start running out of Vigor, the fight would get more intense, and strategy would be more important than ever.

[Skamander]

You're facing the old dilemma between realism and game mechanics here, aren't you? The problem is that true realism, or anything like it, is usually not much fun - the fact that a single arrow in the kidneys, or one slice through the femoral artery, will take you out of combat, usually for good.

The dilemma doesn't arise with games of strategy, where you are shifting armies about, and percentage damage simply reduces the number of effective troops; but in single character games, damage of 10% or less can, if there is any attempt at realism, take you out of the fight entirely.

To my mind, the combination of Wound/Vigour (or Health/Energy, Hit Points/Vitality, etc.) as various games have implemented it, is probably the best of the traditional game solutions. But it would be interesting to see if anyone can come up with a better solution.

[Arbalester]

I understand that any health system worth implementing isn't realistic. I'm not going for realism; I certainly don't want to track exact condition of every muscle and organ in my character's body, though I know that Dwarf Fortress tries to. (Yet another reason why I can't play that game well, even though I find it hilarious.)

I'm just talking about taking a look at the health-bar that's been in place since D&D 1st ed and thinking about ways to tweak it a bit. Namely, the idea of having two health bars, one easier to damage and heal than the other. But maybe that's too complicated.

[Pheoran Armiez]

One of the advantages I believe PFO will provide is that you don’t have to grind (which is where most of your damage/heal/damage/heal) comes in. If combat is relegated to a few wandering monsters (instead of killing 10 of this or 20 of that for 1 quest) and level advancement is based more on skill learning, combat becomes less important in the development of your character. Sure, you may still have to bash in a few heads, defend a hex from encroaching monsters, or cash in on the occasional bounty, but by and large combat is going to be much rarer than in games that are completely combat focused.

This means characters can engage in one or two combats without receiving healing at all, and allow for them to either heal naturally (at a realistic-esk rate) or seek out healing magic or items to bring them back up. I believe this will inherently get away from the “take a thousand damage, receive a thousand heals” issue most MMOs face.

Additionally, if they stick with the standard Pathfinder health system, it gives healing classes a resource for which to make money. A cleric character could hang around a particular temple and sell their uses of cure spells each day to travelers and adventurers that would rather spend their time hacking and slashing and as little time as possible resting and recuperating.

Just a thought.

[Probitas]

I always rather liked the explanation given back in the days of BASIC DnD. You don't really have that much health, you have no more hit points than the rest of the non-adventuring humans. Rarely more than a single digit collection.

The reason you gain a larger pool is to simulate your ability to fight better, turn death blows into flesh wounds, and otherwise escape from traumatic injury, similar to saving throws reducing or outright evading other means of affecting a character. The problem is that a lot of games have those pools approaching 4 digit results. I don't find that EPIC, I find it makes fights stupid long.

The other problem inherent in that is that because those pools are so big, spells and other attacks end up using large damage amounts just to create dents in it. Sure, people like to see large numbers on the screen when they crit, but I find it's getting stale and predictable.

I'd rather they stick to the standard hp pool of the pnp game, and keep the damage results manageable as well. There is no need to have stupid large damage results. The simple fact is that at the beginning of an adventuring career, falling more than 6 feet can kill you. As it should short of some ability or other. No one should be able to take a beating at that level. It makes no sense. But to help keep things in perspective, use the armor worn as a damage reduction mode. So those cloth wearing spell tossers are messed up in melee combat, but total gods at range, also as it should be.

[Pheoran Armiez]

I second armor as damage reduction. Let armor do what it does in real life, reduce damage taken, not mitigate it entirely.

[Nihimon]

I think there's definitely room for an Exhaustion/Vigor/Shock bar, and personally I'd love to see powerful magic deplete this rather significantly. I also think it should be one of those things that regenerates more rapidly the closer to full it is. This would be a great thing to have to go back to civilization (or just a nice camp if you're an outdoor type) and get R&R to fully recover.

[Valkenr]

Personally, I like the SWG HAM system. I didn't see it as "reducing health" you where exhausting them, and the more wounded they are they are the slower they recover.

Battle fatigue was a good touch too, it forced players to return to social areas. But if it was put in PFO I would want to see the system be a once a week return to a city, other than a few times a session (unless you are in a particularly exhausting battle. A class like a ranger should be able to extend this with camping gear and anyone could take supplies to reduce fatigue.

[DeciusBrutus]

What bothered me about the HAM system was that the implementation was broken by certain builds. It even has a fairly good starting point- Str and Con control one of the elements, Dex and Int another, and Wis and Cha control the third. The wounds/fatigue aspect would have to be reworked in some manner, but their original purpose was to give medics, doctors, and entertainers more viable character options.

Cue protests from the PnP purists.

[Valkenr]

@Decius, yeah the system wasn't perfect, but it is a good place to start. There where a few forks in the road and SOE decided to go down the dark a scary path each time. They where the mean little kid that decided: "if you aren't going to play with that toy the way I want you to, I'm going to break it!"

I wouldn't want to see the focus on always having to get buffed out the ass to do anything meaningful. When I think "Buff me" I'm not thinking "quadruple my stats"

I wouldn't want to see a wounds/fatigue mechanic that forces you to go to a hospital/relaxation center every time you fight. You should be able to take field kits and such to maintain your self between fights, only having to go back when you are in a large battle where you are greatly wounded. and fatigue would only kick in heavily when you haven't rested for a while and are constantly fighting. If you manage your actions well you wouldn't need to seek healing often.

Yeah, the PnP guys need to understand that a turn based tabletop game can't have rules that translate into a MMORPG. The lore is the only thing that should be taken from the IP. Ability names can be re-used, but they will have entirely different mechanics.

[DeciusBrutus]

I don't see why a ranger or druid couldn't remain out in the wild without support indefinitely, or at least until he needs to replace his whetstone and buy more arrowheads. Camping and tentmaking could both be implemented as abilities, but camping in the wild would have to have both advantages and disadvantages over going back to the inn.

[Valkenr]

There should defiantly be mechanics that allow rangers/druids to stay out in the world, druids can mold nature into a shelter, and rangers can use nature to build a shelter. But if they hit a certain threshold of

I would like to see some sort of "well rested" bonus, as seen in the Elder Scrolls games, where you character advances more quickly while you have it. Everyone would be able to go to any town with an inn, or anywhere with a bed flagged for their use(house, guild hall) and get the full bonus. Rangers/Druids would be able to build camps for themselves and others that starts with a small bonus, and builds up to the town bonus.

The benefit is when running to town and back would result in more loss of advancement than staying out and setting up camp with a smaller buff, and eventually never having to return to town. The downside is not having the chance to get some buffs/blessings from town.

[zerochosen]

One thing I really liked about DDO was no health regeneration in the middle of an adventure. I think camping in order to (non magically) heal is a must for this kind of game, otherwise the "survival" aspect of the game will only be untill the end of a fight, making all that wilderness exploring not about survival at all.

If you are in the middle of nowhere there should be an element of risk more complicated than the level of the next mob over the hill.

"rations" could be equipment that need to be purchased if you plan on being away for a long time (like buying 2 weeks of dried rations in oldschool D&D). Characters with survival skills could drastically reduce the amount needed, or even produce supplies to sell (the ranger turning up back in town with a bunch of dried meat for sale).

[Nihimon]

I always envisioned a system where the player would select certain traits during Character Development (before you enter the game) that would determine whether you would be more comfortable resting and recuperating at a small campfire open to the sky or at a luxurious hotel in a major city, or anywhere in between.

[Arbalester]

zerochosen wrote:

otherwise the "survival" aspect of the game will only be untill (sic) the end of a fight, making all that wilderness exploring not about survival at all.

That's something I was thinking about, but could never figure out how to put into words. Thank you. (I did add a (sic) in your quotation; I'm too OCD about spelling to leave it out, sorry.)

One of my main problems with themeparks is that survival is just about one fight. After each fight, you can fully heal; worst case, you wait a minute or two for your health bar to finish refilling, and then it's on to the next fight. I'd like survival to be a longer-term thing; maybe not have a Hunger or Fatigue meter, but that would be one way to implement it. Reinforce the idea that the wilderness is, well, wild. It certainly isn't a town, and it shouldn't feel like a town.

[Nihimon]

The idea of having damage persist between fights, until something extraordinary is done to heal it (such as returning to a temple, etc.) is interesting, but I wonder if it's really practical in a sandbox MMO. It's one thing to consider when you're talking about Modules, or "dungeons" like Lairs, Ruins and Caverns. In those, it makes a lot of sense to only allow limited healing unless you leave, and then when you leave allow the interior to also repopulate.

However, in open wilderness, I don't really see how this could work. It seems to me that either it would result in there being certain skills that allowed full regeneration in the wild, and that those would then become effectively required skills for all adventurers, or it would force players to return to civilization at a rate that is almost certainly going to be more irritating than immersing.

[DeciusBrutus]

I think that a good standard would be to make the baseline endurance time in the wilderness two hours of playing in the wilderness before the effect became significant. I'm not sure how fast travel would affect that; if fast travel is only available to 'civilized' locations near a place where people can rest, then fast travel doesn't enter into it much, if at all, but if fast travel is available to wilderness locations, it makes sense that arrivals there would be slightly fatigued on arrival.