Skill Change Idea: Martial Caster Disparity Debate here!

[The_Big_Dog]

Crazy idea time. Power up skills for non-casters. This first attempt uses a progressive system that ties skills per level to maximum spell level of a class. This is similar to the way hit die are tied into base attack bonus.

What the new system does currently as written is attempt to power up the non-casters by providing more benefits from skills. Increased options, mobility, and other features that high level characters focused on skills should be able to do. I have added a new skill rank maximum system in order to keep certain classes (I'm looking at you, Wizard) from abusing the new skill bonuses.

Please take a look at these and tell me what you think. I realize I have no bonuses listed for profession and perform. Any ideas would be helpful. I will be back tomorrow to converse and discuss them in depth!

Without further ado, here are the proposed rules:

Skill point per level changes:

Non-caster classes (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue, Cavalier) - 8 skill points per level + int mod
4th level casters (Paladin, Ranger) - 6 skill points per level + int mod
6th level casters (Inquisitor, Summoner, Bard) - 4 skill points per level + int mod
9th level casters (Cleric, Druid, Witch, Wizard, Sorceror, Oracle) - 2 skill points per level + int mod

Add skill rank maximums to allow characters weaker at casting to be better at skills. I.E., advanced skill training is offset by magic training.
These new rank maximums do not apply to Appraise, Craft, Fly, Knowledge, Perform, Profession, or Spellcraft skills.
They do apply to all other skills.

New skill maximums:
Non-caster classes (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue, Cavalier) - Maximum ranks equal to hit dice (Minimum 1).
4th level casters (Paladin, Ranger) - Maximum ranks equal to 3/4 hit dice (Minimum 1).
6th level casters (Inquisitor, Summoner, Bard) - Maximum ranks equal to 1/2 hit dice (Minimum 1).
9th level casters (Cleric, Druid, Witch, Wizard, Sorceror, Oracle) - Maximum ranks equal to 1/4 hit dice (Minimum 1).

For multiclass characters, simply add the fractional maximums together to obtain current maximum for each skill (minimum 1). Class skill bonuses still apply.

Add additional bonuses and abilities for high skill ranks. All abilities listed below are extraordinary abilities. If no number of uses is given, they are considered to be a constant effect. Unless otherwise noted, your caster level is equal to your ranks in the skill which provided the bonus.

Acrobatics:
10 ranks - +15 feet to all movement speeds. A DC 25 jump check ignores the first 20 feet fallen.
15 ranks - +30 feet to all movement speeds. A DC 35 jump check ignores the first 30 feet fallen, and you no longer end up prone at the end of the fall even if you take damage.
20 ranks - You no longer take falling damage. As long as you would be capable of making a jump check to avoid falling damage, you no longer take damage from falling and never fall prone from a fall unless you want to.

Appraise:
10 ranks – Sell items at 60% value.
15 ranks – Sell items at 75% value.
20 ranks – Sell items at 90% value.

Bluff:
10 ranks - Feinting in combat is a swift action.
15 ranks - Glibness once per day, as the spell. Successfully feinting against your opponent makes him flatfooted against all your attacks until the start of your next turn.
20 ranks - Permanent Nondetection effect, as the spell. A successful feint against your opponent makes him flatfooted to all your allies until the start of your next turn.

Climb:
10 ranks - Spider climb, as the spell, except the climb speed is equal to one quarter your land speed.
15 ranks - Spider climb, as the spell, except the climb speed is equal to one half your land speed.
20 ranks - Spider climb, as the spell, except the climb speed is equal to your land speed.

Craft:
10 ranks - You may craft magic items within your craft skills domain, as if you had a caster level equal to your ranks in the craft skill granting this ability. This bonus applies individually to each craft skill taken.
15 ranks - You craft at half speed.
20 ranks - You can craft any item you are capable of crafting in one day.

Diplomacy:
10 ranks - Once per day, you can use charm person as the spell. The DC is equal to your ranks in diplomacy + your charisma modifier.
15 ranks - Once per day, you can use suggestion as the spell. The DC is equal to your ranks in diplomacy + your charisma modifier.
20 ranks - The charm person spell granted at 10 ranks now becomes Charm Monster, once per day. Once per day, you can use Mass Suggestion, as the spell. The DC is equal to your ranks in diplomacy + your charisma modifier.

Disable Device:
10 ranks - Detect Magic at will, as the spell.
15 ranks - You can use disable device against any trap.
20 ranks - You can use disable device against any ongoing spell or effect cast on an area. The DC for this use of Disable Device is 35 plus the level of the spell or effect.

Disguise:
10 ranks - Disguise Other at will, as the spell.
15 ranks - Alter Self at will, as the spell.
20 ranks - Your disguises can no longer be seen through.

Escape Artist:
10 ranks - Freedom of Movement, as the spell.
15 ranks - You are skilled at escaping with your mind as well. You may make a reflex saving throw instead of a will save against any mind-affecting spell or effect.
20 ranks - Immune to any effects which the Freedom spell would remove.

Fly:
10 ranks - Your flight maneuverability increases by one rank.
15 ranks - Your flight maneuverability increases by another rank.
20 ranks - Your flight maneuverability increases by another rank.

Handle Animal:
10 ranks - Calm Animals at will, as the spell.
15 ranks - Hold Animal at will, as the spell.
20 ranks - Dominate Animal once per day, as the spell.

Heal:
10 ranks - Cure Light Wounds, once per day, as the spell.
15 ranks - Cure Serious Wounds once per day, as the spell.
20 ranks - Heal once per day, as the spell.

Intimidate:
10 ranks - Demoralize now stacks with other shaken conditions to make a creature frightened. Creatures you influence the attitude of will act friendly toward you for a duration of one hour per intimidate rank.
15 ranks - Demoralize now grants the frightened condition, instead of the shaken condition. Creatures you influence the attitude of will act friendly toward you for a duration of one day per intimidate rank.
20 ranks - Using the Demoralize action, you may instead choose to insite your opponent into a rage, as the spell.

Knowledge:
10 ranks - +1 attack and +2 damage against creatures in this field of knowledge.
15 ranks - +2 attack and +4 damage against creatures in this field of knowledge.
20 ranks - +3 attack and +6 damage against creatures in this field of knowledge.

Linguistics:
10 ranks - Comprehend Languages, as the spell.
15 ranks - Tongues, as the spell.
20 ranks - You understand any and all language written or spoken. Even dead languages and secret languages.

Perception:
10 ranks - See Invisibility, as the spell. You may use precision damage against targets with concealment and total concealment.
15 ranks - You may use precision damage and critical hits against creatures that are immune to critical hits. You no longer have a miss change against targets with concealment.
20 ranks - True Seeing, as the spell. You no longer have a miss chance against targets with total concealment.

Perform:
10 ranks -
15 ranks -
20 ranks -

Profession:
10 ranks -
15 ranks -
20 ranks -

Ride:
Ride allows you to select a personal mount. This mount must be standard for its kind, and cannot be an animal companion, familiar, cohort, or similar. It cannot have any class levels or an intelligence greater than 2. This mount is considered your personal mount until it dies or you choose to obtain a new one. Choosing a new special mount requires one week to get familiar with the animal and its capabilities.
10 ranks - Your special mount gains permanent hit points equal its constitution modifier times your ranks in ride. When your ranks in ride or its constitution modifier increase or decrease, so do these permanent hit points.
15 ranks - As long as you are riding your mount, replace any saving throw your mount makes with a ride check. This is a free action.
20 ranks - As long as you are riding your mount, It may replace its fly checks with your ride check.

Sense Motive:
10 ranks - Detect Charm at will, as the spell.
15 ranks - Discern Lies at will, as the spell.
20 ranks - You can sense when individuals are targeting your vital areas and react occordingly. You are immune to precision damage from sneak attack and other sources so long as you are not helpless. This ability cannot be overwritten.

Sleight of Hand:
10 ranks - Quick Draw. Lift slightly larger objects off of a person up to the size of a light weapon of your size (or similar) with a DC 30 sleight of hand check.
15 ranks - Draw hidden weapons as a free action. Lift slightly larger objects off of a person up to the size of a one handed weapon of your size (or similar) with a DC 40 sleight of hand check. Apple sized legerdemain.
20 ranks - Lift slightly larger objects off of a person up to the size of a one handed weapon of your size (or similar) with a DC 40 sleight of hand check. Bowling ball sized legerdemain.

Spellcraft:
10 ranks - Arcane sight, as the spell.
15 ranks - Greater Dispel Magic, once per day, as the spell except the range of the spell is touch.
20 ranks - Greater Dispel Magic, at will, as the spell except the range of the spell is touch.

Stealth
10 ranks - You no longer require cover or concealment to make stealth checks.
15 ranks - Invisibility at will, as the spell.
20 ranks - Greater invisibility at will, as the spell.

Survival:
10 ranks - Blood Biography at will, as the spell.
15 ranks - Locate Creature at will, as the spell.
20 ranks - Discern Location at will, as the spell.

Swim:
10 ranks - You gain a swim speed equal to one quarter your land speed.
15 ranks - You gain a swim speed equal to one half your land speed.
20 ranks - You gain a swim speed equal to your land speed.

Use Magic Device:
10 ranks - You may take 10 on use magic device checks, even if you could not normally do so.
15 ranks - Each time you use an item with limited charges, you use half the charges you would normally use, minimum 0.5 charges. This can leave an item with a fractional number of charges remaining.
20 ranks - You may use any magic item as though you had all prerequisites and a caster level equal to your ranks in use magic device. You may use your charisma modifier for primary attribute modifiers where applicable.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

I really like the bonus for spending ranks in a skill. I do the same when I run a low magic game and has been done many times on this board. Some of your ideas for rank bonuses are new. But the abilities you are granting are not very balanced though. You are granting abilities akin to spells to the melee characters without uses per day like a spell has. Also, gaining a climb or swim speed grants another bonus to those checks.

I hate the idea of limiting max skills because you can cast spells. Totally sucks and unfair to those who use spells, making Knowledge checks successfully at higher levels would be near impossible. Also immensely dislike how you are distributing skills per class. Implementing your ideas would allow a fighter to get unlimited usage out of certain spells, while a wizard of the same level might get 1 per day.

Why do you hate so hard on the spellcasters, but then give at will spells for having ranks in a skill?

BTW: This is not really a debate. It's just a collection of poorly thought out ideas. - emphasis mine

[Auxmaulous]

Me: Why not just reduce the powers of some spells, place some restrictions on casting spells in combat and make casting them full round actions?

OP: Ours go to 11

[Ironic Hero]

My only real issue with this idea is the system of dividing classes into groups based purely on their highest spell levels. The system, as presented, severely gimps Bards, in particular.

[The_Big_Dog]

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

I really like the bonus for spending ranks in a skill. I do the same when I run a low magic game and has been done many times on this board. Some of your ideas for rank bonuses are new. But the abilities you are granting are not very balanced though. You are granting abilities akin to spells to the melee characters without uses per day like a spell has. Also, gaining a climb or swim speed grants another bonus to those checks.

I hate the idea of limiting max skills because you can cast spells. Totally sucks and unfair to those who use spells, making Knowledge checks successfully at higher levels would be near impossible. Also immensely dislike how you are distributing skills per class. Implementing your ideas would allow a fighter to get unlimited usage out of certain spells, while a wizard of the same level might get 1 per day.

Why do you hate so hard on the spellcasters, but then give at will spells for having ranks in a skill?

BTW: This is not really a debate. It's just a collection of poorly thought out ideas. - emphasis mine

I have long felt the skill rule changes in Pathfinder further exaggerated the separation between caster and martial. The idea that full casters get half the capability of the martial classes in combat (BAB), and get full casting AND can be just as skilled in every area of mundane ability (sometimes more so) than the martial to be complete absurd. Especially when most of the spells they get increase their capability with skills even further above the normal level, leaving the martial characters in the dust in every area. This is the issue.

Notice that I specifically spelled out an exception to the max ranks rule with the following skills: Appraise, Craft, Fly, Knowledge, Perform, Profession, and Spellcraft. These are the skills that most spellcasters should be competitive or excelling at in my mind anyway, when compared to full martials. They should not be as skilled as the rogue at stealth, or as good at riding and climbing as the fighter.

The abilities the skills are granting are all mainly low level abilities. Those that are not are usually usable only once per day. I am personally considering even removing those though. I think that a character with 10 ranks or more in a skill (note that this amount of ranks is considered well beyond normal human capability) should be able to pull off what a wizard can with level 0-3 spells, all day long. Note that he is twice the level of the wizard that can cast 3rd level spells when he gets these abilities.

Full casters have a far more versatile set of abilities to draw from, which is exactly why martial characters should be much more powerful in their niches. The current skill rules give no advantage to martial characters in the physical field, however. A meager +3 class bonus does not cut it. Especially when the caster can dip into any class with that class skill and gain the exact same bonus, though the bonus is so small it is hardly worth it to do so.

My comment about martial caster disparity was mainly to point out how these threads usually turn out, since the main purpose is to close that gap somehow. Are there any specific areas or skills that bother you in the implementation?

[The_Big_Dog]

Ironic Hero wrote:

My only real issue with this idea is the system of dividing classes into groups based purely on their highest spell levels. The system, as presented, severely gimps Bards, in particular.

I agree. The bard was an enigma to me. He really doesn't fit with the current crop of players. For most of his class skills, however, his class grants a similar bonus through spells and class abilities. This is something that was oddly left off the rogue, a similarly skill focused class.

Where do you think a good balance point would be for the Bard? Grant him full ranks and the benefits of 6th level spells? I think that goes too far with the added abilities.

[The_Big_Dog]

Auxmaulous wrote:

Me: Why not just reduce the powers of some spells, place some restrictions on casting spells in combat and make casting them full round actions?

OP: Ours go to 11

I generally dislike this method because it still means that casters can be just as skilled in the martial skill area as martial characters, and then cast a spell and be even better, most of the times exponentially better. Compare spider climb (level 2 spell) to a standard climb check. Really?

The issue is not the power of spells, except for the conjuration school and higher level divinations in general and a few other outlying offenders, but an issue with the power of skills compared to spells. Skills progress linearly against spells quadratic power increase. And this increase isn't just in pure power, but duration as well. Casters can eventually field spells that effectively grant them these abilities all day long. Overland flight anyone?

[AlecStorm]

I think that the actual skill system in PF is simple and not so bad. It has its limits, this is true. I hope that we will se a book of skilled characters (the new complete adventurer) to have some bonus from skills.
I like skills so much, they make game more realistic and concrete, but we need some additional rules.

The only change I made now is this: all classes that have 2 skills/level now got 4 skills/level.
Some classes, like fighter, got more class skills depending on character background (same concept of knight orders). A town guard will have local knowledge, and so on.

Some skills got more uses: I make professions more important. Simple example, profession miner is very useful in dungeon, sometimes substitute dungeon knowledge, sometimes engeneering, you can extract metals etc.

I think that some spells are broken. I dislike everything that can end an encounter in one round. I can accept that some spells render useless a monster or character, but not in a irreversible manner (like feeblemind).
My players agree, because I should use same spells against them ;)

Some other spells ruin game, like teleport. I use teleport as a sort of great magic item handled by big community or something special, and you can teleport to fixed place and not everywhere.

Some spells like pass without trace work in this way: add +1/caster level to the DC of survival to track who benefits from the spell (and so on).

Feats like deflect arrow, shield against arrow and crane style require an opposed check.
Crane style work this way: make an hit throw, add al relevant bonus. Don't add enanchment bonus but add your dodge bonus derived from fighting defensively. For shield against arrow instead add you shield bonus (and shield enanch bonus) and for deflect arrows all bonuses on unarmed strike (also enanch bonus).

I don't like the "all or nothing" options :)

I'm very careful on spells that can kill or stop in irreversible way a char. Think about that, is like giving people a feat that say "X time a day, your target make a ST (no hit needed). If he fails is dead, paralized, pietrified, and so on. Nice when players use it, but they have to survive against the same rules ;)

[Auxmaulous]

The_Big_Dog wrote:

Auxmaulous wrote:

Me: Why not just reduce the powers of some spells, place some restrictions on casting spells in combat and make casting them full round actions?

OP: Ours go to 11

I generally dislike this method because it still means that casters can be just as skilled in the martial skill area as martial characters, and then cast a spell and be even better, most of the times exponentially better. Compare spider climb (level 2 spell) to a standard climb check. Really?

The issue is not the power of spells, except for the conjuration school and higher level divinations in general and a few other outlying offenders, but an issue with the power of skills compared to spells. Skills progress linearly against spells quadratic power increase. And this increase isn't just in pure power, but duration as well. Casters can eventually field spells that effectively grant them these abilities all day long. Overland flight anyone?

Disagree 100%

Most of this caster/martial disparity arose from 2nd ed to 3rd edition (and derivatives), and I’ll tell you why: Controllable DCs, self-inflating stats (via items), more spells per level, allowing concentration checks, spells as standard actions, poor rules for monster summoning/gate, wealth exploits via spells/item creation, etc, etc…the list goes on and on.

So to me the idea isn’t to make martial’s more like casters or to give them cool powerz. The idea is to scale things back to when they worked better. Some of this is restricting how spells are cast, others (most) would be how they work in general.
Two thoughts on this:

1) Weaken some of them (all for that)
2) Change them to exist and function better in a world with other classes (and with some balance and group play as a design consideration)

So lets take your Spider Climb example:

Spider climb can be written as such: Grants the target a flat +x bonus to climb and can climb vertical, horizontal surfaces, etc. If CLIMB is a class skill for the target then bonus is instead +x(2). Also make provisions that if the target takes damage while climbing on one of the weird surfaces they have to make a climb check ala concentration.

Guess who would be the best target of spell worked out in this frame of thought? The wizard,... the cleric? No, it's going to be someone with Climb as a class related skill (rogue, et al). Also since we are talking about general adventuring, the Rogue (climb) character is going to fare better if he gets into a scrap up there while climbing around like spider man (remember the climbing check). The wizard, well he’s going to drop as soon as he gets hit.

So it comes down to better designed spells - in my example the wizard can still take a risk and try to climb via SC spell, but the trained climbers would be the best recipient of the spell - every single time.

You can do this with find traps, knock or even invisibility (ex. tone down the listed bonus and give the greater bonuses to those with Stealth as class skill.)

It doesn't take much work, and since it's based on spells the application is universal. All it takes is a little bit of effort, and I believe it is much better than assigning supernatural powers based off of skills.

And another thing - the base skill point system is idiotic. There should be skill point pools: Knowledge, arcane, technical, Martial, faith, survival, etc. Assign a few points to each class via pools, so you can have a fighter with a strong crafting or engineering background - wizards can have a strong knowledge and arcane pool background.

This 2+ based on IN is for the birds, it's crap (imo) and way too restricting. Managing by areas (pools) is a better way (just a random example off the top of my head) to give out points and allow people to be good without stepping on other peoples toes.

Anyway.

[AlecStorm]

I agree with Auxmalous. More or less, I think the same things :)
I banned some spells and changed others (as I wrote before), but I think that the main point of the game is to set the power level down, otherwise we should stop campaigns at 14th level... as usual. I like to run campaigns to 20th level, even epic one, but with rules that comes from 3.0 and 3.5 characters are epic before reaching 20th level.
I made some example also in this thread
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5atw&page=1?Casternoncaster-problem-OK-but- why

I'd like to see a book of skills, but also a book that gives alternative rules to handle a low magic and less gear dependant game.

For example, I'm creating a system without the core magic items. A flaming sword will be a sword that do base damage (fire, not slashing) and target can catch fire. No +1 or +2 bonuses. And another flaming sword could be different (but I don't think I'll give two of this swords to players^_^).
I hate the cloak of resistance, it's mandatory to own. Even the stats boosting items. Every warrior at high levels is strong as hercules, and it's gear that is important and character less important.
Since my players will not have the usual magic gear I give them +1/4 level to all stats instead of just a +1. It got sense and give bonuses also on AC and ST. Same for armor, etc. More importance to skills and class features, situation modifiers, mundane item, etc.
Very important is the material you use. Instead of the usual magic armor, players will have to kill a dragon and using its scales.
Another change to rule is that I use weapon focus and similar feats not on 1 specific weapon but on a weapon group, so switching weapon for situations will be easyer. Now players always bring a reach weapon attached on their mount :)

[Kelsey MacAilbert]

Alec, can you send me your list of banned and modified spells?

[AlecStorm]

I have to translate from Italian, I'll do it soon and I send you, if I can tomorrow :) I can even start a new thread if someone wants, all help is welcome!
Even for feats, etc.
I modified spells, rules and feats in my game. Some very weak feats become traits, but I'll show you this soon :)

[Auxmaulous]

AlecStorm wrote:

Another change to rule is that I use weapon focus and similar feats not on 1 specific weapon but on a weapon group, so switching weapon for situations will be easyer. Now players always bring a reach weapon attached on their mount :)

Lol, I finally just put that in my game last week (been kicking it around for awhile). Using the Fighter groups as a basis, you get all the weapons in that group with Weapon Focus - unless of course it's restricted via class. So cleric of with weapon focus (hammers) would get a +1 to hit with light and heavy maces, clubs and light hammer. He would need to spend a feat slot to add greatclub or warhammer to the group.

Back to the issue of spells vs. skills a huge problem is the DC bloat. The modifiers to spell DCs require modifiers to saves and items thrown in the mix. I think a good solution is to have base saves and have very few things in the game actually inflate them. This would reduce the need for stat items and save related magic junk.

Anyhow, it's a big issue overall - I don't think giving SLA's associated with high skill ranks is the way to fix the problem.
To fix the problem ....you have to fix the problem, which are the spells and how they work. Every other change or tweak is avoiding the main issue and is a bandage at best (or game breaker at worst).

Fix the spells and how they work and 3rd ed can be a pretty good game.

PS: I would also look at stat bloat/hp bloat as the second core issue, one day - who knows, maybe I will have the lower hp/balanced spell system I seek, I will probably need to make it myself though.

Alec, anything you put up I will read or proof or add (if you want). I think that we are of like minds and even if we don't agree exactly on a solution we can still generate systems (maybe even alts of the same system) that work with our gaming philosophies and styles.

[Adamantine Dragon]

I'm intrigued enough by this to consider it. Some of the skill descriptions provided are over the top, but others are plausible enough.

I don't know that it's required to do all the skill point changes, I suspect that if you did, you would find some unintended effects on some classes.

@Alec, I'd like to see your banned spell list too.

[The_Big_Dog]

Auxmaulous wrote:

The_Big_Dog wrote:

Auxmaulous wrote:

Me: Why not just reduce the powers of some spells, place some restrictions on casting spells in combat and make casting them full round actions?

OP: Ours go to 11

I generally dislike this method because it still means that casters can be just as skilled in the martial skill area as martial characters, and then cast a spell and be even better, most of the times exponentially better. Compare spider climb (level 2 spell) to a standard climb check. Really?

The issue is not the power of spells, except for the conjuration school and higher level divinations in general and a few other outlying offenders, but an issue with the power of skills compared to spells. Skills progress linearly against spells quadratic power increase. And this increase isn't just in pure power, but duration as well. Casters can eventually field spells that effectively grant them these abilities all day long. Overland flight anyone?

Disagree 100%

Most of this caster/martial disparity arose from 2nd ed to 3rd edition (and derivatives), and I’ll tell you why: Controllable DCs, self-inflating stats (via items), more spells per level, allowing concentration checks, spells as standard actions, poor rules for monster summoning/gate, wealth exploits via spells/item creation, etc, etc…the list goes on and on.

So to me the idea isn’t to make martial’s more like casters or to give them cool powerz. The idea is to scale things back to when they worked better. Some of this is restricting how spells are cast, others (most) would be how they work in general.
Two thoughts on this:

1) Weaken some of them (all for that)
2) Change them to exist and function better in a world with other classes (and with some balance and group play as a design consideration)

So lets take your Spider Climb example:

Spider climb can be written as such: Grants the target a flat +x bonus to climb and can climb vertical, horizontal surfaces, etc. If CLIMB is a class skill for...

I agree that if you are not going to change the skill system to empower the martial characters, you should scale back the spell system. Unfortunately, there are hundreds of spells and fewer than 30 skills, unless you count specific knowledge, perform, craft skills and such.

You are coming from a different design standpoint than I, which is equally valid. You wish to weaken casters only, I wish to empower martials and weaken casters.

Characters of above tenth level should be doing extraordinary things. The bonuses to skills I have provided above simply enhance things that were already in a skills ability or increases the level of a skill to be useful in higher level play.

I agree with the idea of skill pools as well. Why do you think it is a bad idea to grant further abilities for skills after 1st level?

[AlecStorm]

Here I am. Before giving the list of banned spells I will make an introduction.

There are a lot of spells that interact with reality in a way that bypass skills. All this skills are changed, but I did not make a list, so I'll give some example.

Mending: this spell lets you repair an item with a +1/caster level bonus on skill check. You can make it with no tools (or few, maybe an hammer but not a forge), but you can't make it without training.

Pass without trace: add +1/caster level to DC to follow your track.

Spider climb: you can climb even flat walls, or climb as normal with a +1/caster level on skill check.

And so on.

Sometimes I use this variant rules for healing spells.
All healing spells work this way: range close, give to target the same amount of HP that would be cured as temporary hit points for 1 round / caster level. Same on undead (at GM decision, the range of this effect could be touch or close).

Now the list of sorcere/wizard spell banned (core book). Obviously this depends on campaign. Now I'm talking about a magic level lower than usual (like traditional fantasy).

5th level

Teleport: Teleport at high range could exists as a sort of magic item, like circle of teleport.

Feeblemind: Too strong. (At 9th character level can be a oneshot, ST are weak, and players would not have the spells to recover). I'm working on a variant, maybe a sort of greater touch of idiocy.

Baneful polymorph: same thing of feeblemind. I'm working about it. I think that I'll go for a sort of damage over time to stats (str).

Overland flight can be banned (GM's discretion)

6th
Stone to flesh: working for a variant spell.

7th
Plane shift

Teleport, greater

Teleport, object (GM discretion)

Ethereal jaunt

Limited wish (GM discretion)

9th
Wish (GM discretion)

Another consideration

There are a lot of spells that are "all or nothing". If ST is failed, target is KO, is ST is done, a round is wasted. I think that I'll change every spell to have less effect on a succesful ST, but not a deadly effect if failed. This will also help to handle the ST problems (too high or too low).

Very important, more variants

8th
Mind Blank: doesn't protect from see invisibility and similar spells.

3th
Fly: I'm wondering to change it, and I see different ways. Simply give a different duration, 1 round / caster level. This should need a casting time of 1 swift action.
The second way is to permit casters to use this spells as non continuative duration, but I'll need more time to change magic system in that way (if it seems to be a proper variant).

This are some example. I don't have more specific list, because my players ask me when they pick new spells.

Now I don't have time but next I'll translate other class list and APG list.

You see that casters are not weakened. Consider that even if I ban spells that can kill or stop someone in 1 round with a faile ST I give them a unique DC for all spells, 10+ level/2 + bonus stat.

[Auxmaulous]

The_Big_Dog wrote:

I agree that if you are not going to change the skill system to empower the martial characters, you should scale back the spell system. Unfortunately, there are hundreds of spells and fewer than 30 skills, unless you count specific knowledge, perform, craft skills and such.

To me the effort is worth it. Also once you adjust the baseline spells in the core book the rest are easy. Understand the math and mechanics and use core spells as a guideline for newer spells.

In addition: I do not feel that all spells need to be nerfed - If you make Concentration harder you have made all spell use harder. If you make most all spells full round actions you have also made using all spells harder. So that right there is a blanket change to casting without actually changing any one particular spell.

Also approaching the change from the spells would be less invasive to all the classes. You are changing (in effect) a niche ability for beings which use magic and that is considerably less intrusive than changing the entire skill system which works as the cornerstone for every task and non-combat action in the current d20 system. You change the spells and then you don't have to change much else to fix the system.

As far as actual spell changes my focus would be on making some spells harder to use and exploit.
Ex - Fly should require a Concentration or Fly check (or both) to cast while flying. You can make it so that innate flyers do not need to make these kinds of checks to preserve the focus of creatures (ex Dragon flying by, attacking and casting spells) via innate racial bonus, etc. Also, if the Fly enchanted player has his spell dismissed, well then he falls like a rock (unless he has feather fall prepared). Spells need to be re-examined with a stronger focus on the risk/reward paradigm.

I don't want to take away power from casters; I just want it to have some heavy risks and danger.

Side rant on over-coding of rules:

I DO NOT THINK THAT ALL THE RULES NEED TO APPLY UNIVERSALLY TO ALL THINGS. In other words, who cares if the dragon can fly naturally and cast spells, or if a creature can float and do the same - they are on the table for what - a few rounds? Part of the 3rd ed mantra of over-coding everything and making everything work along an exact mechanic is part of the systems undoing - as in it fails at what it's trying to do as a game. Sure the mechanics are then consistent, but is it functional as a fun RPG? Under the current 3rd ed based rules I say no. Less focus on the meta aspects how a creature can/cannot do something like a PC and more focus on functionality, ease and speed of play

The_Big_Dog wrote:

You are coming from a different design standpoint than I, which is equally valid. You wish to weaken casters only, I wish to empower martials and weaken casters.

Characters of above tenth level should be doing extraordinary things. The bonuses to skills I have provided above simply enhance things that were already in a skills ability or increases the level of a skill to be useful in higher level play.

I agree with the idea of skill pools as well. Why do you think it is a bad idea to grant further abilities for skills after 1st level?

I have no desire to empower martial’s. I do not want martial’s to exhibit wuxia like powers in my game. I think the relative power of casters needs to be brought down to earth - not by stripping the powers but by increasing the risk in their use.

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And as far as "skills with powers" are concerned I will be honest with you - I don't like any of it.

That being said I respect your desire (and understand your reasoning) to pursue this. If you wanted to go down this road I would ditch the skill score math approach and focus on the adventurer class level of the character. As in a 10th level fighter with Intimidate can Demoralize a target, with the focus on the fact that he's a 10th level Fighter.

By making it tied to a skill any joker with the appropriate skill rank can self heal, demoralize, etc. In effect you have changed the reality of the world via skills. What I am saying is if you want this type of power in the game tie it to higher level CLASS abilities, that way PCs and exceptional NPCs get these abilities while all the other NPCs in the world use their skills normally - again, that is if you want to create exceptional PC heroes and NPC villains.

There are going to be more "Climb (Score:13)" guys in the world than there are 10th level Rogues. I'd rather see the 10th level rogues get the super climb power X than a guy with a high skill score. That way you have:

1) Persevered a modicum of non-magical reality for the rest of the world ( you don’t mess the skills which are the "physics" of the game world)
2) Given something exceptional to the exceptional subject - The high level PC and the high level bad guys.

Under what I am proposing a high level king with NPC class levels cannot do the same thing as a PC of equal (or maybe even lower) level. If you are going for the heroic/non-magic ability approach I would tie it to high level class abilities vs. skill ranks (which every slob has access to).