Wait wait wait!!!! Is someone actually trying to say that because they use the word "concentration" that it's talking about the skill?
If you are then you are dead wrong. The concentration skill has nothing to do with spell preparation.
Of course they are dead wrong -- there is no concentration skill any more!
Wait wait wait!!!! Is someone actually trying to say that because they use the word "concentration" that it's talking about the skill?
If you are then you are dead wrong. The concentration skill has nothing to do with spell preparation.
There is no Concentration skill.
Concentration, however, is defined in the game several times and is critical to dealing with magic. You must be able to concentrate to cast a spell, and you must be able to concentrate to maintain a spell. Likewise, you must have an environment that allows for proper concentration to prepare spells. Distracting effects (anything that could threaten to break your Concentration) ruin this.
EDIT: So yeah. Your wizard can prepare spells in the woods, on his horse while riding at a simple pace, in the rain if desired. No problems. If nothing is threatening his concentration (which is defined in the game) then he is fine to prepare his spells. The biggest issue he has is coming from resting, which you have to rest 8 hours before recovering your spell slots and such. Fortunately, the rules for preparing on the go say that you do not need to rest before preparing individual slots, but you cannot abandon spells you have not cast or recover spells cast without resting beforehand.
If a wizard wanted to, he could rest for 8 hours (or 2 with a ring of sustenance) leaving all his slots free, and then prepare them in 15 or 1 minute increments throughout the day.
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Wait wait wait!!!! Is someone actually trying to say that because they use the word "concentration" that it's talking about the skill?
If you are then you are dead wrong. The concentration skill has nothing to do with spell preparation.
There is no Concentration skill.
Concentration, however, is defined in the game several times and is critical to dealing with magic. You must be able to concentrate to cast a spell, and you must be able to concentrate to maintain a spell. Likewise, you must have an environment that allows for proper concentration to prepare spells. Distracting effects (anything that could threaten to break your Concentration) ruin this.
I know there is no Concentration skill but the game mechanic that has to do with Concentration does not come into play Ashiel. Preparing spells and casting spells are two totally different things in this regard. There is no rolling involved what so ever with regards to preparing your spells.
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EDIT: So yeah. Your wizard can prepare spells in the woods, on his horse while riding at a simple pace, in the rain if desired. No problems. If nothing is threatening his concentration (which is defined in the game) then he is fine to prepare his spells. The biggest issue he has is coming from resting, which you have to rest 8 hours before recovering your spell slots and such.
No Ashiel. You are trying to add in a rule there that doesn't exist. You cannot sit on the back of a horse and prepare your spells while in the rain.
You can't even sit out in the middle of the rain and prepare your spells.
You can too. I quoted the relevant text. Inclement weather is harsh and stormy. Harsh and stormy weather is noted as part of the concentration rules. Let me do so for you again, since perhaps you missed it.
Exposure to inclement weather prevents the necessary concentration
inclement
[in-klem-uhnt] Origin
in·clem·ent
[in-klem-uhnt] Show IPA
adjective
1. (of the weather, the elements, etc.) severe, rough, or harsh; stormy.
2. not kind or merciful.
Violent Weather: You must make a concentration check if you try to cast a spell in violent weather. If you are in a high wind carrying blinding rain or sleet, the DC is 5 + the level of the spell you're casting. If you are in wind-driven hail, dust, or debris, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell you're casting. In either case, you lose the spell if you fail the concentration check. If the weather is caused by a spell, use the rules as described in the spell's description.
Just raining is not enough to prevent a wizard from preparing his spells. It requires more than that to interfere with concentration.
No Ashiel. You are trying to add in a rule there that doesn't exist. You cannot sit on the back of a horse and prepare your spells while in the rain.
EDIT: So yeah. Your wizard can prepare spells in the woods, on his horse while riding at a simple pace, in the rain if desired. No problems. If nothing is threatening his concentration (which is defined in the game) then he is fine to prepare his spells. The biggest issue he has is coming from resting, which you have to rest 8 hours before recovering your spell slots and such.
No YOU are trying to add a rule that doesn't exist. The rules already do exist. You're just ignoring them and trying to impose your own will on it. Concentrating is defined in game. It is defined in the very chapter that this is discussing. The very second thing it discusses is concentration, and what things aggravate concentration.
YOU are trying to enforce rules that are undefined, and do not exist, by ignoring the definitions for the terms that are being used and have already been defined in the rules in the same chapter as part of the standard rules for magic.
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You can't even sit out in the middle of the rain and prepare your spells.You can too. I quoted the relevant text. Inclement weather is harsh and stormy. Harsh and stormy weather is noted as part of the concentration rules. Let me do so for you again, since perhaps you missed it.
Exposure to inclement weather prevents the necessary concentrationinclement
[in-klem-uhnt] Origin
in·clem·ent
[in-klem-uhnt] Show IPA
adjective
1. (of the weather, the elements, etc.) severe, rough, or harsh; stormy.
2. not kind or merciful.Violent Weather: You must make a concentration check if you try to cast a spell in violent weather. If you are in a high wind carrying blinding rain or sleet, the DC is 5 + the level of the spell you're casting. If you are in wind-driven hail, dust, or debris, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell you're casting. In either case, you lose the spell if you fail the concentration check. If the weather is caused by a spell, use the rules as described in the spell's description.Just raining is not enough to prevent a wizard from preparing his spells. It requires more than that to interfere with concentration.
That's casting a spell Ashiel and has nothing to do with preparing them. Your own quote is your downfall. Do you see anything in the concentration section that you posted about preparing spells?
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No Ashiel. You are trying to add in a rule there that doesn't exist. You cannot sit on the back of a horse and prepare your spells while in the rain.
EDIT: So yeah. Your wizard can prepare spells in the woods, on his horse while riding at a simple pace, in the rain if desired. No problems. If nothing is threatening his concentration (which is defined in the game) then he is fine to prepare his spells. The biggest issue he has is coming from resting, which you have to rest 8 hours before recovering your spell slots and such.
No YOU are trying to add a rule that doesn't exist. The rules already do exist. You're just ignoring them and trying to impose your own will on it. Concentrating is defined in game. It is defined in the very chapter that this is discussing. The very second thing it discusses is concentration, and what things aggravate concentration.
YOU are trying to enforce rules that are undefined, and do not exist, by ignoring the definitions for the terms that are being used and have already been defined in the rules in the same chapter as part of the standard rules for magic.
If that's your homebrew decision then thats up to you but it's not RAW.
So you're basically bucking the fact that concentration is both described and detailed, matches what is written in the same chapter about preparing spells, and is used for concentrating on other things such as keeping spells active (not actually casting a spell). Ok, so basically what you're saying is you have nothing, and I have nothing except the rules.
EDIT: Concentration is defined as part of casting spells. However, the concentration rules don't say that it is used for maintaining spells with a duration based on concentration.
Concentration: The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end.
Oh look, another example that defines concentration. It's obviously not casting the spell. Just concentrating on it. Just like with preparing spells. If you can concentrate, which is defined, you can prepare your spells. Just preparing spells seems to be a bit more strict, as suffering any damage or condition that can break concentration makes it unsuitable for casting spells.
But, Concentration is still defined in the rules, and we can look at those rules and see what conditions are unsuitable for concentrating.
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So you're basically bucking the fact that concentration is both described and detailed, matches what is written in the same chapter about preparing spells, and is used for concentrating on other things such as keeping spells active (not actually casting a spell). Ok, so basically what you're saying is you have nothing, and I have nothing except the rules.
EDIT: Concentration is defined as part of casting spells. However, the concentration rules don't say that it is used for maintaining spells with a duration based on concentration.
Concentration: The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end.Oh look, another example that defines concentration. It's obviously not casting the spell. Just concentrating on it. Just like with preparing spells. If you can concentrate, which is defined, you can prepare your spells. Just preparing spells seems to be a bit more strict, as suffering any damage or condition that can break concentration makes it unsuitable for casting spells.
But, Concentration is still defined in the rules, and we can look at those rules and see what conditions are unsuitable for concentrating.
Just because the word "concentration" was used in the part about spell preparation, doesn't mean it was referring to the Concentration mechanic.
I see exactly what you are trying to do here.
Those of you arguing so strongly against wizards preparing spells while in a dungeon must realize the wizards have been preparing spells in dungeons forever whenever they have to sleep in one, right?
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Just thought I would post this:
Spell Preparation Time: After resting, a wizard must
study his spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If he
wants to prepare all his spells, the process takes 1 hour.
Preparing some smaller portion of his daily capacity takes
a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at
least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve
the proper mental state.
Spell Selection and Preparation: Until he prepares
spells from his spellbook, the only spells a wizard has
available to cast are the ones that he already had prepared
from the previous day and has not yet used. During the
study period, he chooses which spells to prepare. If a
wizard
already has spells prepared (from the previous day)
that he has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them
to make room for new spells.
When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave
some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, he
can repeat the preparation process as often as he likes,
time and circumstances permitting. During these extra
sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused
spell slots. He cannot, however, abandon a previously
prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot
that is empty because he has cast a spell in the meantime.
That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest.
Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at
least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares
more than one-quarter of his spells.
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Those of you arguing so strongly against wizards preparing spells while in a dungeon must realize the wizards have been preparing spells in dungeons forever whenever they have to sleep in one, right?
Nobody is arguing about resting is dungeons. People are arguing the fact that you can't always expect to be able to rest in a dungeon without being hindered in some way.
Those of you arguing so strongly against wizards preparing spells while in a dungeon must realize the wizards have been preparing spells in dungeons forever whenever they have to sleep in one, right?Nobody is arguing about resting is dungeons. People are arguing the fact that you can't always expect to be able to rest in a dungeon without being hindered in some way.
You don't have to rest to prepare your spells. You have to rest to re-prepare your spells. There is a big difference here.
At this juncture, I think it might be worth pointing out that "inclement" and "violent" weather mean different things in everyday English and that "inclement weather" in fact has a definition in the game. And if one bothers to read this definition, one would find that rain normal for the season is explicitly called out as inclement weather.
Frankly, I think it's silly to assume that every phrase must be interpreted in terms of terms with explicit game definitions. But if you insist on finding a game-mechanical definition of inclement weather, it includes rain.
Fair enough. You're right about the vigorous motion bit. I forgot about that part of concentration.
I will go so far as to say, however, that if you don't interpret as closely to game definitions as possible then you will encounter arguments and problems. You have given me pause to re-evaluate my stance on what the rules mean by inclement weather, because there is a chart that has "inclement weather" listed on it (though it notes inclement weather as including sleet storms and such as well, which DO hamper concentration). Going by the definition of the word, inclement means violent and stormy weather, which also matches up with the Concentration bit.
However, because you have provided something based on the actual rules, I hold your argument in a high regard, and am currently re-evaluating my stance as a result. Props.
Those of you arguing so strongly against wizards preparing spells while in a dungeon must realize the wizards have been preparing spells in dungeons forever whenever they have to sleep in one, right?Nobody is arguing about resting is dungeons. People are arguing the fact that you can't always expect to be able to rest in a dungeon without being hindered in some way.
We accept the fact that you cannot ALWAYS rest in a dungeon without being hindered, what we are saying is that SOMETIMES you can rest in a dungeon.
Since it is possible to rest in a dungeon it must SOMETIMES be possible to prepare spells in a dungeon, not ALWAYS but definately SOMETIMES.
Since it is SOMETIMES possible to prepare spells in a dungeon having the option to do so must be considered as a viable option, it will not ALWAYS work but SOMETIMES it will, and this is the crux of the argument we seem to be having. Dispite the fact that the detractors of prepared casting are willing to admit that SOMETIMES it is possible to take advantage of open spell slots they continue to throw pointless obstacles in the way of actually doing it.
The conversation continues on the same vein with some people accepting the fact that options are good and some other people saying that if you can't use the option for 1 day out of the god knows how many you spend adventuring it must be a pointless option and that its not relevant.
Honestly, its relatively simple. Its better to have the option and not need it than need the option and not have it. Oh well at least we have defined that it is indeed possible to prepare spells in a dungeon SOMETIMES i suppose thats progress.
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Nah seriously. Tell me what they're good for. Show me a good Oracle. You can look at a bard and tell it's not a wizard. Show me how you think an Oracle is built to succeed in the game. EDIT: In other words, show me what the oracle is "meant to give".
Ashiel--
I sincerely doubt I can do this to your satisfaction, since (no offense meant, but) you seem very fixated on mechanical advantage and which is better by the numbers when fully optimized.
All I can tell ya, is I'm playing Oracles in both PF games I'm in right now, and I'm having lots of fun with them, and I'm not having any trouble with being effective. In parties which, in both games, also have Clerics. One of the keys seems to be relying a little more on your Mystery powers. And in the case of one of my Oracles, since 'Mystery of Flame' was the choice, I'm doing pretty well alongside the Alchemist and Magus for covering the blasting needs of the party. Seems to me though, that, if you're gonna play an Oracle and enjoy it-- it has to be about more than the mechanics for you. And it's a matter of personal taste... I get that you don't like Oracles-- that doesn't mean they're useless or can't be effectively played.
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There is no Concentration skill.
Concentration, however, is defined in the game several times and is critical to dealing with magic. You must be able to concentrate to cast a spell, and you must be able to concentrate to maintain a spell. Likewise, you must have an environment that allows for proper concentration to prepare spells. Distracting effects (anything that could threaten to break your Concentration) ruin this.
EDIT: So yeah. Your wizard can prepare spells in the woods, on his horse while riding at a simple pace, in the rain if desired. No problems. If nothing is threatening his concentration (which is defined in the game) then he is fine to prepare his spells. The biggest issue he has is coming from resting, which you have to rest 8 hours before recovering your spell slots and such. Fortunately, the rules for preparing on the go say that you do not need to rest before preparing individual slots, but you cannot abandon spells you have not cast or recover spells cast without resting beforehand.
If a wizard wanted to, he could rest for 8 hours (or 2 with a ring of sustenance) leaving all his slots free, and then prepare them in 15 or 1 minute increments throughout the day.
I see from other posts you already gave on the issue of being able to prepare spells while riding a horse. Seriously-- riding a horse is right out, because no matter how well-trained or good the horse is... I dunno about you, but I wouldn't be able to just keep my eyes on my spellbooks and never look at where the horse is going-- plus there's all that rocking motion as the horse moves....
But now the second part-- the game doesn't supply mechanics and specifics for everything. But-- have you ever tried to go out in the rain, and then sat down in it and so much as tried to read a book while it's raining directly on you? Or really tried to concentrate on anything else, while you're being rained on? It's kind of like being under 'Chinese Water Torture' -- drip, drip, drip, drip.... on your head. Personal experience tells me that doesn't work too well...
You know, if the wizard can set up a tent for quick shelter-- yeah, he can study in that while it's raining outside the tent. But, if it doesn't already apply as a 'distracting condition' under reasonable interpretations of the rules, being out in the rain, even a soft and gentle rain, should be counted as a distracting condition that will prevent preparing spells (or anything else that requires that very high level of concentration for such an extended period).
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A book is generally made of paper and the spells are written in ink.
Both don't like rain very much.
Try reading a book out in the rain for an hour, or even 15 minutes. It could survive if you know how to treat it after it has got damp and you have the needed facilities, but it would not be serviceable for a few days.
Water soluble ink? Porous paper? Coated paper? Probably you can toss your book away after you have kept it open a few minutes in the rain.
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The whole point was that Ashiel was trying to exploit a rule that doesn't exist. The word "concentration" was used in the section on preparing spells and apparently she thought the Concentration mechanic was used in this situation. To make a long story short she was trying to say that if the Wizard could make a roll high enough he/she could prepare spells sitting in a thunderstorm.
You don't have to rest to prepare your spells. You have to rest to re-prepare your spells. There is a big difference here.Those of you arguing so strongly against wizards preparing spells while in a dungeon must realize the wizards have been preparing spells in dungeons forever whenever they have to sleep in one, right?Nobody is arguing about resting is dungeons. People are arguing the fact that you can't always expect to be able to rest in a dungeon without being hindered in some way.
My comment isn't remotely about RESTING. It's about dungeons being places you can PREPARE SPELLS. The fact that you can PREPARE SPELLS in a DUNGEON after you rest means that you can PREPARE SPELLS in a DUNGEON. Which is what some people seem to think is impossible even though that has been a core component of the game for over thirty years.
Clear now?
The whole point was that Ashiel was trying to exploit a rule that doesn't exist. The word "concentration" was used in the section on preparing spells and apparently she thought the Concentration mechanic was used in this situation. To make a long story short she was trying to say that if the Wizard could make a roll high enough he/she could prepare spells sitting in a thunderstorm.
You got Ashiel's point incorrect. Ashiel was saying if the situation isn't one that would force a concentration check then you can obviously concentrate just fine in that situation and therefore can prepare spells in that situation.
Say like standing in the middle of a dungeon.
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Those of you arguing so strongly against wizards preparing spells while in a dungeon must realize the wizards have been preparing spells in dungeons forever whenever they have to sleep in one, right?Nobody is arguing about resting is dungeons. People are arguing the fact that you can't always expect to be able to rest in a dungeon without being hindered in some way.We accept the fact that you cannot ALWAYS rest in a dungeon without being hindered, what we are saying is that SOMETIMES you can rest in a dungeon.
Since it is possible to rest in a dungeon it must SOMETIMES be possible to prepare spells in a dungeon, not ALWAYS but definately SOMETIMES.
Since it is SOMETIMES possible to prepare spells in a dungeon having the option to do so must be considered as a viable option, it will not ALWAYS work but SOMETIMES it will, and this is the crux of the argument we seem to be having. Dispite the fact that the detractors of prepared casting are willing to admit that SOMETIMES it is possible to take advantage of open spell slots they continue to throw pointless obstacles in the way of actually doing it.
The conversation continues on the same vein with some people accepting the fact that options are good and some other people saying that if you can't use the option for 1 day out of the god knows how many you spend adventuring it must be a pointless option and that its not relevant.
Honestly, its relatively simple. Its better to have the option and not need it than need the option and not have it. Oh well at least we have defined that it is indeed possible to prepare spells in a dungeon SOMETIMES i suppose thats progress.
If your argument is dependent on optimal circumstances to be effective...
I could defeat a 7 foot MMA fighter because I could have a gun and he could be asleep.
These are all options that could occur, particularly if I am designing the scenario to best serve my argument.
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The whole point was that Ashiel was trying to exploit a rule that doesn't exist. The word "concentration" was used in the section on preparing spells and apparently she thought the Concentration mechanic was used in this situation. To make a long story short she was trying to say that if the Wizard could make a roll high enough he/she could prepare spells sitting in a thunderstorm.You got Ashiel's point incorrect. Ashiel was saying if the situation isn't one that would force a concentration check then you can obviously concentrate just fine in that situation and therefore can prepare spells in that situation.
Say like standing in the middle of a dungeon.
And if that were the only condition required she might have a sliver of a case.
However it isn't.
Can they create the circumstances where they have such an environment?
But to say that most any environment, including dangerous dungeons are places with enough peace, quiet, and comfort to allow for proper concentration, free from distractions is pretty ridiculous and clearly an attempt to bend the rules to meet your desires rather than an attempt to follow the intent of the rule.
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The whole point was that Ashiel was trying to exploit a rule that doesn't exist. The word "concentration" was used in the section on preparing spells and apparently she thought the Concentration mechanic was used in this situation. To make a long story short she was trying to say that if the Wizard could make a roll high enough he/she could prepare spells sitting in a thunderstorm.You got Ashiel's point incorrect. Ashiel was saying if the situation isn't one that would force a concentration check then you can obviously concentrate just fine in that situation and therefore can prepare spells in that situation.
Say like standing in the middle of a dungeon.
Emmmm no. What I said was exactly what you just said but in a different way. There is no concentration check ever when you are preparing spells. If there is anything that is going to interfere then you can't prepare your spells. It's either you can or you can't. The concentration mechanic has nothing to do with it.
Nobody said you can't prepare spells while standing in a dungeon.
No it isn't dependent on optimal circumstances -- and the simple ability to change spells or prepare in the middle of an adventuring day isn't the only advantage the wizard has.
First off he can still prepare all his spells if he likes. Doing so doesn't hurt him beyond not being able to pick other spells instead.
He can leave spell slots open if he thinks he'll have a chance to prepare spells again at some point. This isn't a highly unlikely circumstance -- easily 75% of the day even for an adventurer isn't spent in immediate danger or even a large degree of discomfort. Occasionally there are times when things are uncomfortable but it is hardly a constant.
In addition to the ability to switch up each day and during a day prepared spell casters also benefit more from item creation feats (specifically feats like scribe scroll, brew potion, and craft wand or craft staff). This is because of the fact you have to know a spell in order to craft a spell trigger or spell completion item based on that spell.
Continuing on this theme a prepared caster has more and cheaper magical items that directly benefit him when it comes to diversifying his daily spells, and options. Pearls of power are cheaper than rune stones. Magecraft amulets only benefit wizards. Candles of invocation are specifically and much more easily useful for clerics.
Class features also tend to benefit prepared casters more than spontaneous casters. A wizard's bonus feats for example are much more useful than a sorcerer's because the wizard's bonus feats are an open-ended list and the sorcerer's are not. As more options are added to the open-ended list the wizard has more (and consistently better) options than the sorcerer has and he gets more of them. In addition he gains anywhere from 3 to 5 class abilities to go with this. Clerics get two domains which give at least 4 special abilities in addition to an expanded spell list -- this is in addition to strong base mechanics and the channel energy class feature which gains more use each time another channeling feat comes out. Both can leave an area, enter a new area and have different options for what spells to cast. Both have multiple options on how to gain spontaneous casting to go with their normal prepared casting. Druids have all this and a nice series or scaling extremely useful class features to go with it.
The whole point was that Ashiel was trying to exploit a rule that doesn't exist. The word "concentration" was used in the section on preparing spells and apparently she thought the Concentration mechanic was used in this situation. To make a long story short she was trying to say that if the Wizard could make a roll high enough he/she could prepare spells sitting in a thunderstorm.You got Ashiel's point incorrect. Ashiel was saying if the situation isn't one that would force a concentration check then you can obviously concentrate just fine in that situation and therefore can prepare spells in that situation.
Say like standing in the middle of a dungeon.
And if that were the only condition required she might have a sliver of a case.
However it isn't.
Can they create the circumstances where they have such an environment?
But to say that most any environment, including dangerous dungeons are places with enough peace, quiet, and comfort to allow for proper concentration, free from distractions is pretty ridiculous and clearly an attempt to bend the rules to meet your desires rather than an attempt to follow the intent of the rule.
Hoenstly your claim that people that regularly travel into the unknown and battle 'monsters' and warp reality to their whim aren't going to be comfortable and at peace in a place where they just killed everything that threatened them seems as a ridiculous attempt at bending the rules and not following the intent of them.
Who are you to tell me I can't be comfortable and at peace in a cave/dungeon/castle/inn/glassworks/fort/city/crypt?
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So I skipped everything after page two of this thread, due to the increasingly hostile nature of the posting.
Can't you people be courteous and reasonable about anything?
>sigh<
I get it that people have favorites and want to defend them, and that people often have radically different interpretations of various rules. But honestly, I dropped on to this thread because I like playing casters, and was interested in comparing my thoughts on the matter with those of other gamers... and had to quit reading because most everyone was (virtually) shouting at each other and mud-slinging over this ridiculous point or that.
For what it's worth (not much at this point) I have played and enjoyed clerics, druids, wizards, and sorcerers. Haven't had the chance at an oracle yet, but they look spiffy and I expect I'll have just as much fun with them as with any other casting class. (Bards have been useless since 2nd edition came out, and haven't been improved enough to play yet, in my opinion. Sorries to the masochists -- I mean, bard enthusiasts -- out there.)
A side note on the wizard/sorcerer thing; I just about always choose a specialty school, and evocation is ALWAYS one of the schools I dump, so I'm not the caster-blaster at all... this carries over into my sorcerer play. I'm usually kind of a combination Illusionist/Enchanter/Necromancer when playing a sorcerer. Still not caster-blaster (which is how I often see sorcerers get played). You can have a ton of fun with the subtler end of the spell selection, as a sorcerer.
Anyhow.
It'd be really nice if we could tone down the acrimony on threads like these.
Just sayin.'
Glendwyr, in the case of my wizard the opportunity cost of not filling all my slots has never come up. I have been playing for a long while and if i don't need to cast a spell to ensure the party wins i don't but that probably comes from ad&d.
I understand and agree with you to some extent in that if i only had 2 4th level slots leaving half of them unused all day would be a risky plan. However i normally leave 25% of my slots open, the guideline ammount of resources a party uses before resting is 80%, i am certain you will not agree with my priciple but it works for me.
You bring up an excellent point that none one else has raised so far though, i think it probably comes down to a mix of luck and skill how much you memorise. You could say the trick with prepared casters is to nit be under or over prepared.
I'll not go into the opportunity cost of a sorcerer chosing one spell over another as i already feel like i am flogging a dead horse and persisting out of stubborness...
Ciretose, this will be my last reply to you if you continue with your beligerent form of disagreement. You are likely to defeat a 7ft mma fighter because you can get a gun and wait until he's asleep. Changing the words and acusing people of creating their own scenario while doing it yourself is not productive, polite or pertinent to the discuscion.
In regards to your issue with prepared casters tailoring their lists on the fly, the option to change spells and hold open slots does not require an optimal situation, it is likely in the course of an adventuring career that sometimes you will be able to use it and sometimes you won't. We're currently discussing, as adamantium dragon quite wisely pointed out, weather its possible for a wizard to do something that they have already been doing for 30+ years.
Theres no special circumstance when you can memorise spells while adventuring, is a special circumstance when you cannot do so. I appreciate your point that it is not always the case, i accepted that point two pages ago. Perhaps you could extend the same credit to myself and others who are still attempting to get the spontaneous half of the conversation to acknowledge that our point also has merit rather than being picky about weather a pool of blood in a corner poses a distraction to a being capable of altering reality.
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Theres no special circumstance when you can memorise spells while adventuring, is a special circumstance when you cannot do so.
And here we depart, and this was the point of the other thread.
Enemies don't always arrive in packaged bundles with gaps between to replace used spells. They often come in waves, or at least in ongoing encounters in areas that don't provide access to memorize or re-memorize the spell you need.
If you find yourself needing to cast a spell multiple times as a spontaneous caster, it is no problem.
If you find yourself needing to cast a spell multiple times as a prepared caster...possibly a problem.
This isn't to say prepared is worse, but it is pointing out that the drawback of having slots actually represent memorized spells means that while you could have more options in the abstract, in practice you aren't as well suited to extended combat encounters.
And extended combat encounters are common in the written modules and APs.
This isn't to say wizards versatility isn't an advantage in some settings, but rather to say that it comes with a disadvantage as well.
So I skipped everything after page two of this thread, due to the increasingly hostile nature of the posting.
Can't you people be courteous and reasonable about anything?
>sigh<
I get it that people have favorites and want to defend them, and that people often have radically different interpretations of various rules. But honestly, I dropped on to this thread because I like playing casters, and was interested in comparing my thoughts on the matter with those of other gamers... and had to quit reading because most everyone was (virtually) shouting at each other and mud-slinging over this ridiculous point or that.
For what it's worth (not much at this point) I have played and enjoyed clerics, druids, wizards, and sorcerers. Haven't had the chance at an oracle yet, but they look spiffy and I expect I'll have just as much fun with them as with any other casting class. (Bards have been useless since 2nd edition came out, and haven't been improved enough to play yet, in my opinion. Sorries to the masochists -- I mean, bard enthusiasts -- out there.)
A side note on the wizard/sorcerer thing; I just about always choose a specialty school, and evocation is ALWAYS one of the schools I dump, so I'm not the caster-blaster at all... this carries over into my sorcerer play. I'm usually kind of a combination Illusionist/Enchanter/Necromancer when playing a sorcerer. Still not caster-blaster (which is how I often see sorcerers get played). You can have a ton of fun with the subtler end of the spell selection, as a sorcerer.
Anyhow.
It'd be really nice if we could tone down the acrimony on threads like these.
Just sayin.'
This. I'm tired of not being able to discuss issues of Paladins, Fighters, Spontaneous casters, or alignment without getting a third degree ass reaming for it. Especially Paladins.
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If you can clear out enough space to seal off a room, post a guard, and get some sleep in a dungeon... you can do the same thing to make some space for your wizard to sit back and prepare some spells.
Not rocket science. Yes, you can do it in a dungeon. Yes, you run the risk that something is going to come along and interrupt the process, and your wizard will have to start over until he/she gets an uninterrupted 15 minute space to get the job done (or 1 hour space at the start of the day...). Yes, there are going to be occasions where the dungeon denizens are not going to leave the party alone long enough for the wizard to do that at all.... but there are limits to how long the party itself can handle that, before your adventurers start dropping off from fatigue anyway-- so it's hardly something that's only going to affect the wizard.
Doesn't seem to me like this question has to be so f***ing hard that you all are so intent on fighting over it.
Doesn't seem to me like this question has to be so f***ing hard that you all are so intent on fighting over it.
LOL, you and me both Finn... Been playing this game for 30 years. Been in countless dungeons. Pretty much prepared spells in every one of them.
Never been an issue until this thread. Yeah, on occasion a wandering monster messes things up, but hey, them's the breaks in dungeons...
Suddenly, out of the blue, just to add gasoline to the "sorc vs wiz" debate, suddenly it is nigh impossible to prepare spells in dungeons.
Huh... go figure.
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This. I'm tired of not being able to discuss issues of Paladins, Fighters, Spontaneous casters, or alignment without getting a third degree ass reaming for it. Especially Paladins.
You mean you don't enjoy starting controversial threads and watching all the fireworks that your posts inspire? ;) (j/k)
Seriously-- don't let people get you down, ignore the ones who are too intent on flaming you to discuss the issues, and don't stop raising interesting questions... someone's gotta keep the intellectual stimulation going around here. :D
This. I'm tired of not being able to discuss issues of Paladins, Fighters, Spontaneous casters, or alignment without getting a third degree ass reaming for it. Especially Paladins.You mean you don't enjoy starting controversial threads and watching all the fireworks that your posts inspire? ;) (j/k)
Seriously-- don't let people get you down, ignore the ones who are too intent on flaming you to discuss the issues, and don't stop raising interesting questions... someone's gotta keep the intellectual stimulation going around here. :D
Fighting over controversial things is unbeatably fun for the first five minutes. Then it's just emotionally exhausting. Also, most of the time, I don't intend to be as confrontational and controversial as I am. I'm REALLY bad at judging how what I say looks to other people and how other people feel. Something I post may be obvious flamebait to you or to the mods, but it isn't to me.
Right now, I'm more intent on working with house rules to take casters down a bit, make spontaneous casters more useful, and raise martials up a bit and on rewriting the Fighter than on fighting over Paladins and alignment.
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Fighting over controversial things is unbeatably fun for the first five minutes. Then it's just emotionally exhausting. Also, most of the time, I don't intend to be as confrontational and controversial as I am. I'm REALLY bad at judging how what I say looks to other people and how other people feel. Something I post may be obvious flamebait to you or to the mods, but it isn't to me.
Actually, I don't think your threads are such flamebait that they should have drawn the negative attention that has erupted on many of them. So-- not sure what to tell ya about why those threads keep getting torched (I was joking about enjoying the controversies). I was (and am) quite serious about not letting people get you down. I don't agree with everything you write, but do I enjoy reading a lot of your posts.
However-- yes, I understand the working on other priorities thing though. :)
Actually, I don't think your threads are such flamebait that they should have drawn the negative attention that has erupted on many of them.Fighting over controversial things is unbeatably fun for the first five minutes. Then it's just emotionally exhausting. Also, most of the time, I don't intend to be as confrontational and controversial as I am. I'm REALLY bad at judging how what I say looks to other people and how other people feel. Something I post may be obvious flamebait to you or to the mods, but it isn't to me.
I think it's largely do to some past unsavory behavior from me. Namely, a completely pathetic sock puppet incident where I got into a bad mood, created an alternate account, and popped off insults at myself, then watched the reaction.
on the flip side of being able to quicken on the fly applying other metamagic feats make you take a full round action to cast which is a big drawback.
Not if you also quick cast them. :-)
why is a silenced dispel magic with a lesser quicken rod still a 3rd level spell? silence still increases the spell level by 1 for sorcerers or oracles..?
Unless you are using Heighten Spell, a meta magic feat don't change the spell level, only the spell slot.
A silenced dispel magic is cast as a 3rd level spell from a 4th level slot. You only need a lesser rod of quicken to do it as a swift action.A silenced fireball is cast as a 3rd level spell from a 4th level slot.
a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability will still protect you from that fireball regardless what slot you use, unless you use Heighten Spell.
You only need a lesser rod of quicken to do it as a swift action.
Exactly the same as a prepared caster but spontaneously
My position is that if you remove the class from context, it can be any class at any time.
Nop, A fighter isn't a wizard.
It is the limits of the game that make the game. It is the fact that although you have more options, you still have to select options prior to the time you will use them.
No, It is not the limits of the game that make the game. It is the DM and the players and the rules.
The "empty" slot argument makes the assumption you will be given time between encounters to memorize spells you will need, and that you will not run out of spells going into combat less than fully loaded.When you look at the written adventures, this luxury isn't always provided. In fact, in any kind of dungeon crawl, it simply isn't available.
You go from isn't always provided to it simply isn't available.
So you have established a given context as some sort of truth that all other readers must accept or you are discussing them outside of the game.
To discuss what could happen if we removed the wizard from game context is to discuss how awesome it would be if I myself had the ability to cast spells in the real world.
No. Again you are being silly.
Your recurring rhetoric is. "You can't prove a thing unless you are arguing the way I want to and post stuff the way I want to. You are doing neither so therefore all of you are disqualified. "Not very honorable or classy rhetoric.
A discussion completely removed from context, and therefore not practically applicable.
a) Says who? God?
b) Who is saying it needs to be practically applicable? You?c) Some stuff can actually be discussed completely removed from context. The Alpha version of Deadly Performance was just broken. A discussion completely removed from context in that case was no problem. A fighter isn't a wizard.
My understanding was this was a discussion of the two classes as a comparison for the value they have in the game.
Says who? You? And we must now all be law-abiding citizens or be punished?
Says the OP? First he didn't, but even if he did....The OP has long gone been neglected and ignored. He wanted:I once heard that the Prepared Casting Classes are better than the Spontaneous Casting Classes. I personally see advantages and disadvantages to both.
Give me your analysis of which one you prefer and why.
Is there any hope that I'll get one logical post for each side before this devolves into angry ranting?
Discussing them outside of the game...well...what is the point, they don't exist outside of the game.
So you say and I don't agree and I guess a lot of other posters don't agree and we will go on posting. Perhaps we are intellectual midgets compared to you, so what.
If you don't like, fair.But again and again saying : "You don't do what I want the whay I want it so you and your opinions don't count" is just childish.
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Used once every 3 days to 20 days.
Usable from third level, if you know that the spell exist, if you know the spell, if you can spare the slot the right day.
Your spellbook can be a thin foil of mithril with gold letters, too. Or a Boccob Blesssd Book that don't use ink.
All things that aren't the norm for all wizards. And a magus hasn't access to the spell while he still need to memorize spells from a book.
And just for fun, try taking a piece of plastic with some print and read it under the rain. Then do the same in a dry environment. You will notice a difference in the speed at which you read. Water running on a waterproof page don't help in reading it.
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Glendwyr, in the case of my wizard the opportunity cost of not filling all my slots has never come up. I have been playing for a long while and if i don't need to cast a spell to ensure the party wins i don't but that probably comes from ad&d.
I understand and agree with you to some extent in that if i only had 2 4th level slots leaving half of them unused all day would be a risky plan. However i normally leave 25% of my slots open, the guideline ammount of resources a party uses before resting is 80%, i am certain you will not agree with my priciple but it works for me.
You bring up an excellent point that none one else has raised so far though, i think it probably comes down to a mix of luck and skill how much you memorise. You could say the trick with prepared casters is to nit be under or over prepared.
Actually, with other words, this point has been called out several time up thread, and simply ignored or drowned by other discussions.
In regards to your issue with prepared casters tailoring their lists on the fly, the option to change spells and hold open slots does not require an optimal situation, it is likely in the course of an adventuring career that sometimes you will be able to use it and sometimes you won't. We're currently discussing, as adamantium dragon quite wisely pointed out, weather its possible for a wizard to do something that they have already been doing for 30+ years.
Again, this is what the discussion as been changed to as a way to confute the simple fact that it is not granted that you will have the conditions to re-memorize spells.
It is a common debate trick. Change what the other people are saying so that it is easy to defeat the argument.
I think that everyone that don't feel the need to defend something can agree that:
1) it is possible to memorize spell while into a dungeon
2) it is not granted than you will be capable to memorize spells into a dungeon
You can change "dungeon" with "outdoor", "while trekking", "while underwater" and so on.
Normally my wizard could not memorize spell while sitting into a bonfire, but with the proper preparation he could memorize spells even in the middle of the plane of fire.
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I think it's largely do to some past unsavory behavior from me. Namely, a completely pathetic sock puppet incident where I got into a bad mood, created an alternate account, and popped off insults at myself, then watched the reaction.Actually, I don't think your threads are such flamebait that they should have drawn the negative attention that has erupted on many of them.Fighting over controversial things is unbeatably fun for the first five minutes. Then it's just emotionally exhausting. Also, most of the time, I don't intend to be as confrontational and controversial as I am. I'm REALLY bad at judging how what I say looks to other people and how other people feel. Something I post may be obvious flamebait to you or to the mods, but it isn't to me.
Your posts are generally fun to read. The problem is that you seem to suffer from game related ADHD. They are not about paladins, they are about tiefling paladins that are devote followers of Cayden but from a splinter sect, come from Cheliax and operate in Taldor and then saying that the problem part is being a paladin. :P
You want to experience every facet of the game at the same time, so you tend to create a character that alone has more personality conflicts with his party and the world around him/her that most 6 man groups.
Try making a character that is a bit more agreeable with the world around him/her. Instead of every facet of the character being different from the norm make him so that he as only 1-2 points where he differ from the norm.
You want to play a paladin? he is a tiefling? good.
But if you are playing in Taldor, take a LG god that is accepted there, make him a local citizen.
Playing in Mendev? Avoid making him a tiefling.
A level of moderation will help.
Diego, i didn't spot it in any of the earlier posts, i would re read them but i'd rather just apologise if i overlooked someones contirbution. It was just that particular post that brought it home for me, i think i would like to discuss over/under preparedness and what it constitutes but a lot of that will vary table to table.
I'm not 100% on what you mean in the second part of your post, however since we can actually agree that it is possible but not guaranteed that a wizard can memorise spells in the field then i will hold that up as a beacon of hope for this thread and ignore the comments about debate trickery.
The thing that the people who insist on calling every scenario manufactured are missing is in this game each scenario is manufactured. Three common scenarios are:
we have a problem and it needs dealing with right now, eg. 20 goblins just charged us, its predictable that you will be attacked and bad things will happen but its hard to predict what you will need and you can only use the resources you have available. Spontaneous casters will be equal to or better than prepared casters in this situation but as we already know the spell choices they make will most likely be similar so it comes down to the number of times you need the exact same resource in a day and how many similar resources you have, eg. Damn, Goblins, if only i hadn't used my black tentacles spell on those Paladins it could have crushed these goblins good, oh well, Web...
We have a problem that we can't deal with right now, eg. Borris looked at the Medusa and now he's a statue, depending on other factors the prepared caster "should" be better in this situation, you don't have the spell in memory and the spontaneous caster doesn't know stone to flesh or similar (its not a commonly required spell), your options are go on without Borris, sit near his statue and fill an empty slot or withdraw with his statue so you can fix him and come back. The spontaneous caster can use cash to fix it but for the prepared caster its just a matter of time.
You have a problem that you can deal with any time, eg. There is a locked door on the second floor of the tower you just cleared, the rogue can't disable device it, the fighter can't break it (for whatever reason), and you have all the time in the world to get a knock spell and come back, this heavily favours the prepared caster.
To pluck a figure out of thin air i would say in my experience 70% of the time the situation i am in is the first one, something happens to which i must react immediately with the resources i have on hand. Then we look at what Gwen said, "what really matters is how many of your top couple of level spell you have" which i agree and disagree with at the same time, i use all my spell levels, even a level 1 grease can disarm a fighter at high levels or stop a ground based charge with a spot of difficult terrain. The other situations in which a prepared caster can be useful are situations that have no real impact on the "can you do it in an xxx" debate as you either have to do it right now like the BSF statue or have all the time in the world like the randomly locked door.
So it comes down to how prepared you need to be for a days adventuring, as a GM i am aware that the guideline amount of resources a party should use before resting is 80%, i know my party are optimised and rarely use that much so i prepare 75% of my spell slots unless i know i need a dimension door for example. Now this figure will vary from table to table, GM style, party skill, party comp etc will all change the amount of resources you need but i am quite lucky in that over 7 levels of play i have found my particular groups sweet spot and can take advantage of my options. A sponaneous caster at level 7 would be able to cast haste every fight which would be a solid contribution to every fight, a perpared caster just looks at the fight and thinks weather the party need haste or not.