Also options like the magecraft amulet and spontaneous metamagic for generalist wizards greatly enhances their ability to spontaneously be ready for whatever they are confronted with using the perfect spell at that time, as well as doctoring it up quickly with metamagic.
For sorcerers I have to say the Razmiran Priest is perhaps the most likely to be able to really have a chance at matching spontaneous preparedness.
Also things like pearls of power favor the prepared caster more since they basically make his spells of that level into spells known that he can spontaneously refill (though this does take a standard action -- meaning it might slow him down in the middle of combat).
Part of the problem with the sorcerer specifically is the abilities he gets are generally late for what they do and more in line with lower level spell effects -- only they also can't be used as often.
I mean really at first level a wizard can have:
4 first level spells for the day
1 spell from his arcane bond
8 uses of his school power
An additional bonus from his specialty school.
Scribe Scroll.
A sorcerer has:
5 first level spells for the day
Eschew materials (generally a rather weak feat -- but still occasionally useful)
8 uses of a class power.
The disparity grows with levels too -- every odd level the wizard will actually have more spells per day, and he gains more bonus feats.
Of all the primary casters sorcerers got the rawest deal.
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Our group of fearless adventurers finds their path blocked by a shabby wooden door with rusty angles.
Fighter:"Ok, step back everyone I´m gonna kick this piece of s@~~ in like I did the teeth of that ogre just moments ago."
Wizard:"You , know what I have a better idea, just let me spend 15min to flipping through my spellbook and meditating so I can waste a spell slot for that."
After a min of kicking the fighter cannot break down the door which is actually an arcane locked iron shod door covered with an illusion to fool Borris the Strong and Fair and the wizard has finished preparing knock due to his fast study ability... But he waits another 14 just to prove a point anyway so the fighter doesn't accuse him of moving the goal posts.
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Meanwhile the cleric's in the corner laughing as he ponders his proficiencies, casting in armor, higher HD, higher BAB, better saves, and cost-free spell learning without an easily stolen book to completely cripple him. And how he gets plenty of great spells right off the sorc/wiz list and with Miracle at no cost at all can duplicate ~95% of all the spells in the entire game.
But yeah, sorcs and wizards. Keep fighting each other over who's better. :p
Meanwhile the cleric's in the corner laughing as he ponders his proficiencies, casting in armor, higher HD, higher BAB, better saves, and cost-free spell learning without an easily stolen book to completely cripple him. And how he gets plenty of great spells right off the sorc/wiz list and with Miracle at no cost at all can duplicate ~95% of all the spells in the entire game.
But yeah, sorcs and wizards. Keep fighting each other over who's better. :p
Hey clerics are cool, we're talking about prepared vs spontaneous not arcane vs divine. Though before level 17 its arcane unless you want to be a low bab fighter with buffs or get nagged to cast spells that are a waste of time in combat :p
Say what? [..]It's crap in my opinion when you are supposed to be a spontaneous caster but only have one spell of a spell level known. That's not spontaneity.
You do have a point :-)
After a min of kicking the fighter cannot break down the door which is actually an arcane locked iron shod door covered with an illusion to fool Borris the Strong and Fair and the wizard has finished preparing knock due to his fast study ability... But he waits another 14 just to prove a point anyway so the fighter doesn't accuse him of moving the goal posts.Our group of fearless adventurers finds their path blocked by a shabby wooden door with rusty angles.
Fighter:"Ok, step back everyone I´m gonna kick this piece of s@~~ in like I did the teeth of that ogre just moments ago."
Wizard:"You , know what I have a better idea, just let me spend 15min to flipping through my spellbook and meditating so I can waste a spell slot for that."
Nahh, Boris kicks in all and everything ,arcane locked or not, whereas the wizards knock removes TWO MEANS of preventing acces.
Knock is the prime example of a "waste of time and energy" spell, just like all the other spells that do stuff thats done easier by mundane efforts.
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You do have a point :-)
Say what? [..]It's crap in my opinion when you are supposed to be a spontaneous caster but only have one spell of a spell level known. That's not spontaneity.
People tell me that they can spontaneously cast their lower level spells with those higher level spell slots and that this makes it okay.
I disagree of course.
You do have a point :-)
Say what? [..]It's crap in my opinion when you are supposed to be a spontaneous caster but only have one spell of a spell level known. That's not spontaneity.
Now don't get me wrong -- I love playing me some sorcerer, but that doesn't mean I can't admit that it still has some fundamental flaws that need fixing.
I loved the bard class too but during Beta I was all sorts of bashing on how crappy they were overall.
BSF needs a pretty high str score to get around an arcane locked iron door (dc38), he could probably axe it down given a few mins but then he triggers the suggestion "leave and never come back" trap or alerts the horde of monsters on the other side with his clanging.
We can go around with this all day and i guess sleet storm your the kind of guy who would but weather you recognise it or not being able to prepare utility spells on the fly is a good option to have, and the more options you have the more chance you have of selecting the right one.
Just to dispel the misconception, the wizard dorsn't want to do everything, hell let BSF bash the door down if it will save me a spell slot, i just like to know if i need to i can help out.
After a min of kicking the fighter cannot break down the door which is actually an arcane locked iron shod door covered with an illusion to fool Borris the Strong and Fair and the wizard has finished preparing knock due to his fast study ability... But he waits another 14 just to prove a point anyway so the fighter doesn't accuse him of moving the goal posts.Our group of fearless adventurers finds their path blocked by a shabby wooden door with rusty angles.
Fighter:"Ok, step back everyone I´m gonna kick this piece of s@~~ in like I did the teeth of that ogre just moments ago."
Wizard:"You , know what I have a better idea, just let me spend 15min to flipping through my spellbook and meditating so I can waste a spell slot for that."
Nahh, Boris kicks in all and everything ,arcane locked or not, whereas the wizards knock removes TWO MEANS of preventing acces.
Knock is the prime example of a "waste of time and energy" spell, just like all the other spell that do stuff thats done easier by mundane efforts.
Wow, what an amazingly moronic example. You use knock on doors you need it for. If you come across some ramshackled door with a low break DC and half-rotting off the hinges, you'd be excessively stupid to waste spells on it, as even a simple wooden door has a break DC of 13, and this one sounds like it has the broken condition, making it an easy 50% chance to smash it down as a commoner with a 10 Str (so the wizard could do it in a try or two even with a 5-7 strength). However a strong wooden door has a brake DC of 23. It may be barred from the other side (making lockpicking useless), and if it's arcane locked, it would be a DC 33 to try and break it open, which means unless Boris is sporting a 36 strength, isn't going to happen, even when taking 20 to beat the sucker down.
At which point, a knock or shatter spell is particularly convenient to have. But that's the point. You have that nice little scroll of knock tucked away, or you have a 2nd level spell slot that you can use in situations such as this. Congratulations, you were able to contribute to the party's success when the Fighter and/or lock-picker found something they couldn't overcome (the DC to pick the lock would have been increased by +10, which makes it simple = 30, normal = 35, good = 40, superior = 50).
Regarding the extra spells known human favored class options... I like them, I'm heavily in favor of them, as far as I'm concerned they're a patch on spont. casters getting too few spells known.
HOWEVER, I hate that it's a human-only thing. Completely obsoletes races like gnome that are supposed to be good sorcs/bards/oracles. It should just be a general option for any sorcerer.
Magic items support for prepared casters is much better: There is no equivalent item to pearl of power for sponatenous casters.See Runestone of Power
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Fixed link.
Cool item. Missed that one. Thanks for the info.Some notes.
The item isn't in the core books (whatever that means). Perhaps not of importance.
The items is more expensive then the prepared counterpart.
Useful for bards and Inquisitors, but not as useful for Sorcerers and Oracles. Sorcerers and Oracles weak spot isn't really spells slots per day. It's spells known and casting time using meta magic feats.
Edit:
Start rant:
I agree that there are several very good or even excessively good items that will help the prepared caster more, the problem is having them. They have a money cost and aren't automatically available everywhere.In these discussions generally the prepared spellcasters always is some kind of fantastic figure that can at the same time:
- have all the spell he need and have open slots
- always has the time to memorize spells in the open slots
- always has the possibility to "return another day" after changing his memorized spells, and the target will never be the wiser and prepared for him (too many computer games)
- always has all the items he want.
/rant
True, you have a point, but let's change some words in your quote and see what happens.
"In these discussions generally the prepared spellcasters is never a fantastic figure. They can seldom or never :
- have most of the spell they need and have open slots
- have the time to memorize spells in the open slots
- have the possibility to "return another day" after changing his memorized spells, and the target will often be the wiser and prepared for him
- have all the items they want."
Rhetoric is a fantastic thing. Too bad I suck at it ;-)
Which means having the option is somehow the same or worse than not having the options at all Zark?
Sorry that doesn't float and it doesn't fly.
Don't know what you mean. No snark intended.
Regarding the extra spells known human favored class options... I like them, I'm heavily in favor of them, as far as I'm concerned they're a patch on spont. casters getting too few spells known.
HOWEVER, I hate that it's a human-only thing. Completely obsoletes races like gnome that are supposed to be good sorcs/bards/oracles. It should just be a general option for any sorcerer.
Indeed. I just can't bring myself to play a sorcerer who doesn't use the extra spells per level option from human. However, even still, the last sorcerer I did play like that I ended up scrapping in favor of a wizard, because the sorcerer bloodlines didn't really offer her anything useful concept wise (they have nothing particularly good for a necromancer, for example, which is what she was themed for being) and I got tired of not having any skills and/or knowledges, which made my hedge-witch adviser concept kind of fall apart.
Ended up re-rolling her as a wizard (necromancer). :(
Dropped some ranks into Ride as well, since she got a bloody skeleton warhorse who she made sentient via a 3P feat, and named Chain-Lightning. He was her buddy. Probably never would have considered a mounted spellcaster very seriously, but it just seemed like a cool thing to do once she got her horse. :3
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Wow, what an amazingly moronic example.
...to easy.
On topic, Schrödinger's wizard or cleric will always win, but in actual games I've found that honest players, or players with GMs who keep them honest, generally find themselves rationing spells or running out.
Yes scrolls can come into play, but they aren't free, it isn't a free action to get them when you need them. You go into action with the players you have, not the player you want to have.
But I would love for this to be part of the challenge I made earlier that was not accepted.
I'm glad the option exists at all, but I think those runestones are overpriced. Yeah, it doesn't take a standard action to activate like pearl of power, but you just do that between combats to get important spells back anyway. Pearl is better because it gives the spontaneous casting-like flexibility to impromptu spam the same spell repeatedly if it should turn out to be super important to do so. All the runestone does is give you +1 slot. Pearl's doing that AND MORE, effectively.
If anything, the pearls should cost 2000 x (spell level)^2 and runestones 1000 x (spell level)^2. Isn't "having lots of spell slots to burn" supposed to be a spontaneous caster thing?
Which means having the option is somehow the same or worse than not having the options at all Zark?
Sorry that doesn't float and it doesn't fly.
Then does it eat? Does it sleep? Does it laugh or cry? No, all it does from dusk 'till dawn is make the soldiers die... :3
Don't know what you mean. No snark intended.
None taken -- what I mean is simply having the options is better than not having the option. Of course the wizard won't be able to exercise that option every time... but that isn't the same as saying he doesn't have it at all.
If a spontaneous caster doesn't have the spell known then he doesn't have the spell at all, something completely different will have to be done to get past the problem. If a prepared caster (namely a wizard) doesn't have the spell right now, that doesn't mean he can't have it at all -- at best it means he's delayed for now, not stymied completely unlike the spontaneous caster.
And while the spontaneous caster might be able to make something else work, the prepared caster can do that too -- it isn't an innate function of the spontaneous caster that is regulated to his use only. The difference is the prepared caster (again wizard specifically) could easily have the correct/perfect answer available in minutes where the sorcerer either does or doesn't now.
Now if the sorcerer had 2+ more spell slots per spell level to help him make up for lack of diversity with repeatability then he might be even: But on the odd levels he is outgunned on spells per day and on the even levels he's barely ahead.
After a min of kicking the fighter cannot break down the door which is actually an arcane locked iron shod door covered with an illusion to fool Borris the Strong and Fair and the wizard has finished preparing knock due to his fast study ability... But he waits another 14 just to prove a point anyway so the fighter doesn't accuse him of moving the goal posts.Our group of fearless adventurers finds their path blocked by a shabby wooden door with rusty angles.
Fighter:"Ok, step back everyone I´m gonna kick this piece of s@~~ in like I did the teeth of that ogre just moments ago."
Wizard:"You , know what I have a better idea, just let me spend 15min to flipping through my spellbook and meditating so I can waste a spell slot for that."
Nahh, Boris kicks in all and everything ,arcane locked or not, whereas the wizards knock removes TWO MEANS of preventing acces.
Knock is the prime example of a "waste of time and energy" spell, just like all the other spell that do stuff thats done easier by mundane efforts.Wow, what an amazingly moronic example. You use knock on doors you need it for. If you come across some ramshackled door with a low break DC and half-rotting off the hinges, you'd be excessively stupid to waste spells on it, as even a simple wooden door has a break DC of 13, and this one sounds like it has the broken condition, making it an easy 50% chance to smash it down as a commoner with a 10 Str (so the wizard could do it in a try or two even with a 5-7 strength). However a strong wooden door has a brake DC of 23. It may be barred from the other side (making lockpicking useless), and if it's arcane locked, it would be a DC 33 to try and break it open, which means unless Boris is sporting a 36 strength, isn't going to happen, even when taking 20 to beat the sucker down.
At which point, a knock or shatter spell is particularly convenient to have. But that's the point. You have that nice...
NO REALLY???? You think that was an imperfect example somehow?
I´m sorry but that was the best I could come up with in my nutsized brain.Of course I´m no match for you!!
You must be some kind of genius or something.
I'm glad the option exists at all, but I think those runestones are overpriced. Yeah, it doesn't take a standard action to activate like pearl of power, but you just do that between combats to get important spells back anyway. Pearl is better because it gives the spontaneous casting-like flexibility to impromptu spam the same spell repeatedly if it should turn out to be super important to do so. All the runestone does is give you +1 slot. Pearl's doing that AND MORE, effectively.
If anything, the pearls should cost 2000 x (spell level)^2 and runestones 1000 x (spell level)^2. Isn't "having lots of spell slots to burn" supposed to be a spontaneous caster thing?
I don't think changing pearls of power is the answer. The problem is fundamental. It's in the gears of the system. It'd be better to address the problem rather than trying to mask it. Like a bad smell, overlaid with perfume, you just end up with some weird odor that is thick, and while may not necessarily be bad, isn't pleasant.
Spontaneous casters have a variety of problems. The first notable one and the most obvious is there stunted spell progression. The second is there amazingly limited spells known and inability to adapt. Again, psions are everything the sorcerer should have been, with their ability to learn 2 spells per level, but there spells never becoming obsolete. Psions are spontaneous casters with options. Those options are good too.
Likewise, and here's a cool idea for spontaneous casters, which is plagerized from psionics core rules. Why not give sorcerers and such the option to expend charges from themselves when activating magic items? Psionic characters can access a power stone (essentially a scroll) with a successful spellcraft check, and then burn their own energy to call on the power of that stone.
So let's say the sorcerer has a scroll of knock and has successfully identified it as a knock scroll. He could activate the scroll by burning a 2nd level slot, without burning out the scroll in the process. Being a scroll, and likely CL 3rd instead of his own caster level, it wouldn't be as strong as if he were actually casting it himself, but he's consuming his own energy to power the effect rather than consuming the energy sealed in the item.
Just a thought.
@Abraham. Sorry again. What options are you talking about?
I agree with you, so how come you think we don't agree?
What quote of mine are you referring to?
Was it? ""In these discussions generally the prepared spellcasters is never a fantastic figure. They can seldom or never" [...]
Read it again. It was a joke.
Then does it eat? Does it sleep? Does it laugh or cry? No, all it does from dusk 'till dawn is make the soldiers die... :3Which means having the option is somehow the same or worse than not having the options at all Zark?
Sorry that doesn't float and it doesn't fly.
@Abraham. Sorry again. What options are you talking about?
I agree with you, so how come you think we don't agree?
What quote of mine are you referring to?Was it? ""In these discussions generally the prepared spellcasters is never a fantastic figure. They can seldom or never" [...]
Read it again. It was a joke.
My mistake -- my joke detector must be broken again, I thought you where making an honest attempt at disputing the position that the option was a powerful one (at least in theory).
LOL! :D
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NO REALLY???? You think that was an imperfect example somehow?
I´m sorry but that was the best I could come up with in my nutsized brain.
Of course I´m no match for you!!
You must be some kind of genius or something.
I personally would have pointed out that shatter is a damage spell on object that "...creates a loud, ringing noise..." that is as noticeable to baddies as, say, throwing a glowing rock down a hallway and no more effective than just hitting it with a sword and saving a 2nd level spell.
Knock is useful to have, particularly as a wand for someone in the party to carry rather than occupying a slot.
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NO REALLY???? You think that was an imperfect example somehow?
I´m sorry but that was the best I could come up with in my nutsized brain.Of course I´m no match for you!!
You must be some kind of genius or something.
Now, now it's okay -- hey look this time why don't you jump your bmx into the building from here swing it around knock the guns out of their hands do some sort of trick stunt and rescue the hostages? I'll sit this one out, it's all you.
NO REALLY???? You think that was an imperfect example somehow?
I´m sorry but that was the best I could come up with in my nutsized brain.Of course I´m no match for you!!
You must be some kind of genius or something.
If you weren't being sarcastic, yeah, it was a pretty foolish example. If you were being sarcastic, I apologize for misunderstanding. If you weren't, well, I don't know what to say. Maybe some +1 stimulant would help.
It doesn't take a genius to see that wasting spells on a door that a halfling with 1 strength could kick down given a bit of time (he could knock down a simple door on a 18, or a broken simple door on a 16) is a Bad Idea (TM) and I assumed no one would be stupid enough to actually do that. Perhaps I was wrong, and there are players out there who would actually do this. Maybe I've just had better luck with players.
Now, now it's okay -- hey look this time why don't you jump your bmx into the building from here swing it around knock the guns out of their hands do some sort of trick stunt and rescue the hostages? I'll sit this one out, it's all you.NO REALLY???? You think that was an imperfect example somehow?
I´m sorry but that was the best I could come up with in my nutsized brain.Of course I´m no match for you!!
You must be some kind of genius or something.
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Now, now it's okay -- hey look this time why don't you jump your bmx into the building from here swing it around knock the guns out of their hands do some sort of trick stunt and rescue the hostages? I'll sit this one out, it's all you.NO REALLY???? You think that was an imperfect example somehow?
I´m sorry but that was the best I could come up with in my nutsized brain.Of course I´m no match for you!!
You must be some kind of genius or something.
Then a golem appears...
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Then a golem appears...
*falls over laughing*
AAAAH, im giving up on you guys :)ROFL
LESSON LEARNED: (If you want to use any form of sarcasm,irony or simple humor on a forum you have to hammer your point down to the point where it´s not funny any more)
I personally would have pointed out that shatter is a damage spell on object that "...creates a loud, ringing noise..." that is as noticeable to baddies as, say, throwing a glowing rock down a hallway and no more effective than just hitting it with a sword and saving a 2nd level spell.
Shatter doesn't deal damage. It outright destroys objects. The only time that it deals damage is vs crystaline creatures. So if you are dealing with an object that has a hefty hardness/break DC but it's not magical? Shatter will let you blow the door so your warrior can get in all swat-style during the surprise round (assuming anything on the other side didn't know you were coming). Hacking at the door would take longer.
Knock would be ideal, but this is just an example as to how problem solving works. Don't have a flat-head screwdriver? Well maybe a wide-edged knife will do. However, your chances of success diminish further and further with the less tools you have for the job.
A screwdriver is great for screwing stuff in, makes a decent ice pick, but a really bad coffee maker.
Now, now it's okay -- hey look this time why don't you jump your bmx into the building from here swing it around knock the guns out of their hands do some sort of trick stunt and rescue the hostages? I'll sit this one out, it's all you.NO REALLY???? You think that was an imperfect example somehow?
I´m sorry but that was the best I could come up with in my nutsized brain.Of course I´m no match for you!!
You must be some kind of genius or something.
Lol, i hope that joke is international since its a good one.
AAAAH, im giving up on you guys :)ROFL
LESSON LEARNED: (If you want to use any form of sarcasm,irony or simple humor on a forum you have to hammer your point down to the point where it´s not funny any more)
My apologies. I didn't realize your were being sarcastic. As silly as it sounds, I've been in discussions with people both online and offline that have given such examples while being serious. I guess it has just rubbed off on me poorly.
My apologies, again. EDIT: As far as humor goes, yeah, it's actually really funny, and I would have laughed very hard had I not thought it was serious. :P
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Shatter doesn't deal damage. It outright destroys objects. The only time that it deals damage is vs crystaline creatures. So if you are dealing with an object that has a hefty hardness/break DC but it's not magical? Shatter will let you blow the door so your warrior can get in all swat-style during the surprise round (assuming anything on the other side didn't know you were coming). Hacking at the door would take longer.
My mistake, it is magical objects it damages, non-magical it destroys a single object, although it is ambiguous as to the size of the object and we've always gone with "smaller than a weapon" given the additional description of area effect damage.
A door would be larger than a weapon in our game, weighing more than 1 pound per level generally.
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That is a good question. A solid wood door could be hefty, but I don't know if it would be more than a 2nd level caster could take.
Edit: Could be wrong. This site calculates a 3ft. by 5ft. door made of ash 1 inch thick at just over 40 lbs.
I don't think I want to sit down and do calculations for every door I throw at my players tho. :)
AAAAH, im giving up on you guys :)ROFL
LESSON LEARNED: (If you want to use any form of sarcasm,irony or simple humor on a forum you have to hammer your point down to the point where it´s not funny any more)
Sadly i've talked to people who would have said similar things to your sarcasm seriously and honestly with no clue as to their tongue in check nature it is very hard to recognise sarcasm via text based interactions.
However, i suppose it either had to be sarcasm or stupidity and it goes to show my failing trust in human intellect that i was on the side of stupidity.
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That is a good question. A solid wood door could be hefty, but I don't know if it would be more than a 2nd level caster could take.
Edit: Could be wrong. This site calculates a 3ft. by 5ft. door made of ash 1 inch thick at just over 40 lbs.
I don't think I want to sit down and do calculations for every door I throw at my players tho. :)
The logic being if you are a 4th level caster you aren't wasting your precious few 2nd level spells, and if you are higher than that and don't care about the noise (again creates a loud, ringing noise) just hit it with your weapon until you break the door down.
Shatter doesn't affect magical objects. Again, it only deals damage against crystaline creatures. Anything else it destroys if within its weight capacity. Thus if you want to destroy a magic item with shatter, but have to suppress the magic for 1d4 rounds via dispel magic or similar, and then shatter it while it's nonmagical.
Again, it depends on what your options are. Prepared casters have the potential for more options. If you need to get through the door and smashing it down is impractical (arcane locked, high hardness, etc), then you use knock or shatter as needed. Otherwise, you save your scroll or use your slot for something else and let your party handle it.
That's the point. Sorcerers don't generally pick up knock spells because they are very specific. If you need them, they're great. If you don't, they're wasted. A wizard can scribe a scroll of knock for 75 gp (the cost of 1 antitoxin + 1 alchemist fire + 1 spell pouch) and have it if he needs it. If he never needs it, good for him (like antitoxins). It's better to have and not need than need and not have every day of the week.
If the wizard hadn't scribed a scroll, he could have left one of his 2nd level slots open while traveling (say he might have 2 spells he will use regularly and 1 slot he has open for utility). He gets to a point where he needs a utility spell, flips through his options, and gets to choose the spell for the job. Need a nigh-impregnable door opened? Knock. Need to be able to swim underwater to reach a lever to open a passage? Alter self. Need to get to a very high place so you can throw a rope to your companions? Levitate. The party's wagon is fubar? Make whole. Party doesn't want to sleep on the ground? Rope trick. You determine that there are mindless undead up ahead but they haven't noticed you? Command undead. You encounter an area with a permanent cloud spell (stinking cloud, cloudkill, whatever)? Gust of wind.
Since you can also prepare lower level spells in higher level slots, you might also have access to virtually any 1st level spell as well, if you need it. The sorcerer only has what is immediately available, and a if that sorcerer is going to have to deal with something outside of his usual capability (such as encountering mindless creatures when most of your spells include stuff like charm person, phantasmal killer and shadow evocation) then it is less likely to be able to adapt to those situations.
*While the Wizard and Fighter argue over who opens the door, the rogue in the party has already done so and gone into the next room to pocket that nifty magic item he just found.*
Not if the door didn't have a lock on it he didn't. Notice I pointed out the time you want knock is if you come across a door that's barred. Very simple, low-tech means of keeping folks out. Just a thick plank of wood anchored to each side of the wall that prevents the door from being opened. If the door is sturdy, you're not getting through easily.
If the door has a mundane lock that can be opened by your party's resident locksmith, or you have the time to hammer the door down and aren't worried about anyone on the other side of the door, then go for that. There should rarely, if ever, be an argument between the caster and warrior as to how they are going to open the door.
The logic being if you are a 4th level caster you aren't wasting your precious few 2nd level spells, and if you are higher than that and don't care about the noise (again creates a loud, ringing noise) just hit it with your weapon until you break the door down.
Unless you know there are enemies on the other side of the door who haven't become aware of you yet. Blowing the door off the hinges during the surprise round means your party can swat-team their way in the room and catch the bad guys with their pants down (or playing cards, or sleeping, or whatever). Sure, they'll know you're there, but only after the surprise round has begun, and you may do this without even getting in the way of your allies charging (as you can stand 30 feet away from the door and crush it), meaning your allies may even get a charge off.
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*While the Wizard and Fighter argue over who opens the door, the rogue in the party has already done so and gone into the next room to pocket that nifty magic item he just found.*Not if the door didn't have a lock on it he didn't. Notice I pointed out the time you want knock is if you come across a door that's barred. Very simple, low-tech means of keeping folks out. Just a thick plank of wood anchored to each side of the wall that prevents the door from being opened. If the door is sturdy, you're not getting through easily.
If the door has a mundane lock that can be opened by your party's resident locksmith, or you have the time to hammer the door down and aren't worried about anyone on the other side of the door, then go for that. There should rarely, if ever, be an argument between the caster and warrior as to how they are going to open the door.
You do realize that rogue's can have Wands of Knock, or a scroll of knock or use "any" magic item out there. There are other ways to open a door than just using a set of lockpicks.
