Well I play many games where the player base is 60 to 70% north american and it is a struggle often to get groups going let alone a decent market for us euro's and I understand the oceanics have it even worse hence my concern.
Goblin Squad Member
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As far as AH's go, I can live with the instant sharing of information, as long as the goods dont magically transport (i.e. similar to the EVE system). This is easily explained as divination magic. Sendings, Whispering Wind, Scrying and the like could all account for the information being available. There should be a range limitation in place, but no idea what the appropriate hex-range should be.
There could be a guild of merchants specialised in Divination who provide these services for the NPC towns. For a player settlement to have access to the instant AH/market updates, theyd need to reach a certain point of development to be able to recruit the services of these guild merchants.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I look at it this way, auction houses should be localized. Reason being, settlements will have a transaction fee, just as they do for selling skill training. It is an added source of settlement revenue, which will help to offset the great expense of building and managing a settlement.
That being said, it is not in the best interests of the individual settlement to set up a system where merchants can even view a regional market. They want things to be sold there. In a kingdom you might see an interconnected trade network because the interest would exist there, and there would likely be a management skill related to that.
How would a merchant know where is the best place to bring their wares to the market? Communication and or travel is the simple answer. They may also have developed experience with various markets and learned over time what to sell and where.
I would also imagine that resources will be somewhat regional, and so would be found in various markets with more or less abundance. Merchants will have to keep this in mind when deciding to risk traveling further, but gaining higher potential profit with that added risk.
Buying low and selling high in within the same market is something I looked into on Eve, and it was not possible after viewing the buy and sell orders in that market. With transaction fees on both ends, made it even less likely to turn a profit without travel.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I look at it this way, auction houses should be localized. Reason being, settlements will have a transaction fee, just as they do for selling skill training. It is an added source of settlement revenue, which will help to offset the great expense of building and managing a settlement.
That being said, it is not in the best interests of the individual settlement to set up a system where merchants can even view a regional market. They want things to be sold there. In a kingdom you might see an interconnected trade network because the interest would exist there, and there would likely be a management skill related to that.
Thats a pretty important point actually. Forgot about the settlements taking their cut of the transactions. Down with the Diviners!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Seems pretty likely local AH will be the deal. As far as instant knowledge of prices in other AHs, not likely but would be convenient. The divination idea might work and could be explained way easier than global "magic" goods transfer. Global market knowledge could be charged for. Would make a good gold sink.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Edit: Top part of the post got eaten .....
If there is a 'Global' method of spreading news on markets and sales, imagine this as a method of preventing outright market shenanigans by the 'Conglomerate' Chapters/Guilds ..... :
Depending upon how well-built a Hex is, there may be small outposts near the borders, alongside the roads, where merchant convoys are stopped and checked for 'contraband', escaped 'slave' NPCs or just random checks.
Exporting certain items might bring about a tax of some kind, either in gold or in goods, to ensure that at least some of the Hex's resources remain.
You don't want all your food being shipped out, or all your iron, etc etc. Roads that head towards rival Hexes, or Wild Hexes where Bandits are known to be the Powers-That-Be, might be marked as potential trouble-makers/sympathetics towards these Enemies, and might even be denied access back into the Hex if proof can be found that they are actively assisting the Enemy.
Of course ... they might be shipping spies or contraband INTO the Enemy Hex to mess with it ... need to have some way to let your Guards know that the Fifth Wheel Merchant Convoy is waived of all searches due to 'services to the realm'.
And of course, merchants looking to avoid their stock being pawed, or confiscated and fined, or worse still, being slowed to a crawl because the Border Guards have conflicting Orders that prevent the Merchant from being the first on the scene to a new Market for their goods, might turn to 'Smuggling Routes' through Wild Hexes, dangerous, but with enough coin in the right hands, the Bandits might ironicly become their best business partners, clearing the path before and behind them of hostile monsters/Players, and covering their tracks as best they can.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am with the idea of local markets with little to no access to a regional and definitely not a global market. I am not saying this because I am a bandit and it will limit or remove my primary source of income. Actually, it was brought up in another post that the primary income will most likely be gathers getting the goods from harvest to the market in the first place, but I digress. I still don't see a real benefit to having a global AH except to let people be lazy and never leave the settlement. I think encouraging people to get out and travel will make the game better and more enjoyable for everyone. After all, with the devs doing all this work on the art and scenery, why not get out and enjoy it.
Also, it rewards merchants who take the risk and gives value to word of mouth. Yes I know most people will use some form of VOIP and trading empires will possibly involve people sitting in different settlements comparing prices, but if they have to travel, at least that way they can give the market a chance to change. Basically a race between merchants to get their goods to market first. Competition breeds better prices for consumers and a thrill for merchants to use various "tools" at their disposal.
Theme park MMOs have a central AH because market dynamics are irrelevant to their gameplay. This is not the case for Eve or PFO.
It seems obvious that a central AH would be counterproductive as it removes a potentially vast amount of player conflict (aka game content).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I play many games where the player base is 60 to 70% north american and it is a struggle often to get groups going let alone a decent market for us euro's and I understand the oceanics have it even worse hence my concern.
Well one thing worth noting in PFO vs most other MMORPGs. They don't intend to divide their population into multiple servers, that alone should be a rather significant cut into the normal plague of population reduction that happens in traditional MMORPGs.
@Bluddwolf...it certainly is possible to buy low and sell high in a single eve market and make a profit. You just have to know what you are doing a little more :)
@Onishi while true that it looks like one server initially the projected player base isnt greatly more than most theme park mmos individual servers.
From memory I think wow averaged about 20000 to 30000 players per high pop server with an expected concurrent users in the 3000 range.
Someone was talking about 9000 for early enrollment which is projected to last for several months. With that figure I think the single server will not be offsetting the timezone effect. Certainly it will improve with time as the total playerbase increases.
However when non early enrollment players start one thing that can put them off is not finding a healthy market system. I should make myself clear here the only thing I am saying I don't think should be in is only having player brokers who have to be online if you want to deal with them which is what Hardin suggested.
I am fully behind player run shops and local markets. Just not restricting the ability to trade to only dealing with online players is all
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I figured that the default model would be for (almost?) every settlement to have warehouses(?) and a market; they would determine who could rent warehouse space and for what cost, and who can buy and sell at the market, and at what cost. From there, individuals could set up buy and sell orders describing what they wanted to buy and sell, in what volume, and at what price.
The market doesn't move the goods, it just transfers ownership. If you want to get your ton of copper ore, you need to pick it up from the warehouse and move it to where you want it.
The current orders are going to be available to any player who wants them, because all the players are connected to the internet and it benefits everyone to have information available. From that I conclude that it makes sense for it to be convenient to get that information; otherwise the mechanics favor the players who sets up the best way of sharing information. Actually executing remote buy and sell orders is not a given, but it seems like a nice thing for someone with trader skills to be able to do. (Along with setting up remote transportation orders; buy something cheap out where it is cheap, hire someone to move it to where it is expensive, and sell it there all without getting your own boots dusty.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Seems pretty likely local AH will be the deal. As far as instant knowledge of prices in other AHs, not likely but would be convenient. The divination idea might work and could be explained way easier than global "magic" goods transfer. Global market knowledge could be charged for. Would make a good gold sink.
I can guarantee that there will be instant, global knowledge of at least all the major local markets without the need to muck around with divinations, and no way to stop it. Simply plop/weasel an alt into each market location and use them to maintain a localized price list. The more people you have contributing to this, the more accurate and up to date it will be. To top it off, it will likely be free.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can guarantee that there will be instant, global knowledge of at least all the major local markets without the need to muck around with divinations, and no way to stop it. Simply plop/weasel an alt into each market location and use them to maintain a localized price list. The more people you have contributing to this, the more accurate and up to date it will be. To top it off, it will likely be free.
That sounds good on paper but I have tried it with guilds and my corp in EVE and it is much harder to do well than it sounds. I'll use whatever is in, but I am promoting individual vendors in player owned store and player run AH. We'll see what GW puts in.
@Hardin Steele most of us just use one of the many price aggregating websites such as eve central I think the point Sintaqx was making was if it wasnt discoverable in game easily the slot would soon be filled in with third party websites
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Goblin Squad Member
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Seems pretty likely local AH will be the deal. As far as instant knowledge of prices in other AHs, not likely but would be convenient. The divination idea might work and could be explained way easier than global "magic" goods transfer. Global market knowledge could be charged for. Would make a good gold sink.I can guarantee that there will be instant, global knowledge of at least all the major local markets without the need to muck around with divinations, and no way to stop it. Simply plop/weasel an alt into each market location and use them to maintain a localized price list. The more people you have contributing to this, the more accurate and up to date it will be. To top it off, it will likely be free.
Too true. I was suggesting an in-game way to do this so we don't have to resort to meta. Actually it should be a free service of the local market or all will use their alts.
I would suggest the following mechanic....there is a fast messenger service (think pony express) this carries market info from settlements up to a certain number of hexes. Using this service has a small cost each time.
For a larger sum you can buy or sell remotely up to a certain number of hexes but you still have to go fetch your good. The pony express only takes you buy order and the gold for it.
In addition all information from this service has a delay built in. The further the hex reported on the more the delay
eg 1 hex 5 minute
2 hexes 10 minutes etc
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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@ZenPagan: I like the idea of an in-universe reason, but I don't think a delay makes sense from a game perspective. Could a merchant put out a transport contract right after executing the buy order? What if someone else locally fills the buy order before the message arrives? So many edge cases, and what is gained by the delay? If there were someone local to pick it up right away, the order could have been executed locally at lower cost; if not, then the transaction delay has no effect.
These issues can be sidestepped with cheap and easy magic communication, along with the magic currency that all of the PCs use. Part of the added cost of remote orders is the communications overhead, paying for the magic communication required. BAM! Instant reason why things work the way that being a game requires.
I was merely speculating on possible mechanics frankly that would make sense from a lore mechanic...in this case it taking sometime for a pony rider carrying trade info getting from one settlement to another
As you suggest though serious traders would use third part web sites just as they do in eve. People need to remember that we do not want to give huge advantages to such people that it is required to make a profit.
What I would however like to see is a scarcity of blue prints. If only a handful of people can make the best swords that is good. If there is a lot of different best swords depending on who is using them and the handful of people who can make each is not the same even better.
Perhaps make making the best sword almost a quest for those that want it.They need to find the one they need that has a recipe. To have that recipe fulfilled they need to accept a contract to fulfil which needs a slew of extremely difficult tasks done. Only once the contract is completed can the commision at huge expense the sword
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think we should go back to the original Ultima Online model. You paid one or more vendors to stand outside your house and peddle your wares. If you had a house in a high-traffic area, you sold a lot more stuff. If you got a good enough reputation, other people would ask you to sell their stuff through your vendors. You would go round handing out free teleport runes to your vendors or other sales gimmicks. It worked :)
Of course if like me you wanted a large house out in the wilds where nobody went you didn't sell much but since we are organised into settlements it should work fine.
Ruf
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Goblin Squad Member
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The UO model was kind of fun. If you like shopping for your stuff. That can be alleviated a little by PCs with easy to find locations and regularly keeping their vendor shelves full.
It could be that the vendors are hired through the settlement so the settlement doesn't lose out on any taxes. You would be killing of the side job of AH management for players though, as well as harming (a little) the diversity of buildings run by the settlement.
Then there is the fact that player housing sounds like a "future" project at this stage. It would be a necessity with player vendors though. Too many vendor avatars standing around the settlement marketplace. Junking up the place. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm yes without player housing you would need a number of "pitches" for vendors in a marketplace area. You would need to control them somehow - maybe the settlement charges a rent for the spot and they vary that to control demand. if there are lots of empty slots they drop the rent and if it's over-subscribed they raise it. Maybe that would work? Just a thought.
Ruf
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm a little bit confused; why is it desirable to have to click on humanoid avatars to buy and sell rather than a building? Or is there some other aspect of vendors that I'm missing?
Not sure. If you are asking, why not just an auction house? I think that ppl are afraid of conglomerates cornering the market. The teeny tiny local AH markets, but, ehh it is far to the next market.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think Decius is remarking on the arbitrariness of what gets clicked on. Why should GW spend resources implementing NPC "stores" when a simple geometric figure, as long as it is marked for purpose, can do the same thing...especially in a minimally viable system.
What does the humanoid figure offer that the simple shape does not? Either one can open a store/AH when clicked so that is irrelevant. For instance, clicking the geometric shape could either open an AH if they go that route, or it could open a menu to browse all the different stores in the town. That, I think, is what he meant by his earlier reference to "warehouses"
While not taking any side in this particular argument as I can work with either. My only no no is a game global ah which delivers by mail.
When thinking about these things whether auction house vs player shops we have to bear in mind that current day players have been pampered by ever more simple to use systems. The sales system from past experience if it doesn't live up to ease of use criteria produces a huge amount of forum complaint. As I said I am not opposed to individual vendors personally but I suspect there will be many players who on finding they can't just go to one central place to see every sell and buy order in a settlement will have to run around checking in with 10 or more vendors will take to the forums.
I suspect that we will have more than enough complaint anyway from players used to a more afk and more instant forms of in game travel find themselves having to spend actual time getting from one place to another. I know many who try Eve for the first time when coming from other MMO's are taken aback by the fact that you can easily take 30 minutes getting somewhere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't want to see a global AH either. I am pretty sure that they won't build one. Regional or kingdom/alliance specific? Maybe as a bonus to those institutions.
Global markets and instant transfer by mail are obviously great for consumers and convenient for merchants. In the end, though, they really make the opportunities for maximum profit more difficult for the seller.
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Goblin Squad Member
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GW has persistently offered a strategy that makes anything that is available to the few (such as those who might use PFOmarkets.info) should be available to all. This seems to be one of their ways of combating "griefing" in the sense of taking advantage of the system in unintended ways.
It will be interesting what they decide here. While I would prefer a "local" economy only (although everyone is welcome to scout other areas and their markets), I think they will opt for an almost exactly EVE-like system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just read enough of this so as to get the gist(I think): http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Market_guide
If I can place buy/sell orders and also sell goods from afar through alts, what is the incentive for the merchant to move goods? Is it just required for ppl that want goods delivered?
@Bringslite
I think you may have misunderstood
You can place a buy order remotely
for instance I in station A can put a buy order up for Veldspar in stations B,C,D and E
All the ore sold to me to fill this order remains in stations B,C,D, and E respectively and I still need to go collect the ore it doesn't magically appear in my hangar.
Likewise when I place an item up for sale, people may buy from anywhere in the region, however the item remains in the station at which I put it up for sale until they come and fetch it
Naturally in both cases you could also contract a third party to fetch the goods to you but that third party will always be a player and in all cases the goods need to be physically moved
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ZenPagan
Okay, I think I understand. If they adopt this system in PFO there still won't be any incentive to move the goods or ore if you like. The prices will be averaged out throughout the region of the linked market boards? I can just run to B, C, D, etc. and hold or relist.
Not much different than theme park. :(
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be the incentive to move the ore/goods. The gatherer must get the ore to where the craftspeople will buy and use it. The craftsman must move the goods to wherever they think it will sell (it may be that not all settlements have an AH: and auction house might require a certain level of development). The purchaser will then have to go to the settlement with the auction house that has the purchased product to pick it up. Then wherever they go they will have that item on their character until he loses it, or deposits it in storage, or resells it elsewhere, or whatever.
I don't know whether to list an item on the market you have to have it in inventory: We don't know, I think, whether the buyer of an item can turn around and put it up for auction again without actually taking delivery.
The prices are not averaged in Eve what happens if I can give an example is as follows
You can only put an item for sale in the station where the item actually exists
Five players have put a Gizmo up for sale in five different stations in the region (this will probably equate to about a kingdom in pfo)
station A price 10isk
station B price 15isk
station C price 20 isk
station d price 25 isk
station E price 30 isk
I can see all 5 sell orders because I am looking at the market in that system and can buy any of the 5 orders. I will then have to travel to pick up the item.
I may choose to buy one of the higher priced gizmo's because I have to travel less distance, or it may be a less risky route to get there.
Now it is true I could buy the gizmo in station A and put it back on sale at 20 isk if and it is a big if I have trained up the skills to do that, this is only really likely however if I have specialised towards being a merchant. At some point though the end user will still end up going and getting the item. Items only have any value if they are actually used for something else who would ever want to buy them.
I get the impression it is the relisting that troubles you. If that is a correct assumption can I ask why you are troubled by it?
All players can buy or sell in the station they are at.
You then need to increase merchant style skills in eve to be able to
Place more orders(though I cant remember how many orders you are allowed unskilled)
Place remote buy and sell orders (each level of skill trained widens the range)
Lessen the sales tax fees
A few other abilities such as margin trading which probably aren't relevant to PfO.
An interesting and interactive one that I don't think any mmo currently does is an actual auction. Would be nice to see some enterprising group set up a recurring auction event with a pc auctioneer and actually taking real time bids for items from players gathered around
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not sure what merchant skills there will be and what requirements for buying selling. I am sure that there will be some though.
Leaving that aside and assuming I have the skills and they adopt a similar system as in EVE:
1. I can see some variation in prices (market to market) due to cost/danger in transporting goods for merchant or end user.
2. Actual seller doesn't seem to need to move goods unless buyer requires it.
3. Wouldn't a "Buyer pickup" or "Includes delivery" designator be useful?
4. There is no room for "Bid or Bid Only" options. It is lowest matching offer or bid?
I have no problem with real auctions. Might be fun and would fix #4. Don't think that I would participate though unless it was for high end items or very large lots of resources/goods.
The eve market is always a buyer pickup market. It seems a reasonable way to go as the buyer has full information of where the goods are and can base their buying decisions accordingly.
Buy and sell orders in Eve are set price, doesn't mean there cannot also be the concept of bid orders in PfO though. Frankly I am not sure if it is worth implementing whilst I can only talk for myself and those I have heard mention it but it seems to me that in games like wow where there is a bid and also a buyout price that most go straight for the buyout price unless it is severely overpriced.
I am not bothered if they wish to put in bid orders, just pondering whether the developer time is well spent. I am sure they have some industry knowledge however that we don't on the usage of bids vs buyouts so am more than happy to leave it up to them
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will toss my two cents into the discussion and argue for localized AHs...that is, for each settlement to have the ability to set up its own AH for its members, guests and neighbors. Certainly, merchants and suppliers might want to know what all the settlements in the region are offering to see where to sell/buy, thus allowing for economic competition between settlements. Also, those willing to travel further in their comparative shopping might find a real steal and be able to afford the transport fee to sell that product for a higher price back home.
To the argument that those with limited play time are penalized if there isn't a full-blown, world wide AH, most players are likely to be members of some settlement eventually, and will have access to it's AH for their quick surf-and-buy.
If you're on the other extreme and want nothing to do with an automated economy, you can always do it the old fashioned way...a possible trade channel or even stand at the gate of a settlement or NPC town and call out what you have to sell. Personally, I would welcome the role-played interaction of such merchants. In fact, as someone who likes to harvest raw materials, I intend to be a face-to-face supplier.
@Bringlite that was me and I still think they will, everything they have said about economics has made it sound to me like that is the plan
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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There is a lot of room for arbitrage in Eve, and everyone profits. Using terms interchangeably, there might be a market on the periphery of controlled territory near an escalation hex. Consumables there are in high demand, and looted items are in high supply. The players fighting the escalation sell their loot items and buy their consumables there because the coin benefit of going to a different market isn't worth their time away from fighting the escalation.
There are remote buyers and sellers safely in the city with the trading abilities; these traders buy the loot items from the remote location and sell them in cities where the facilities exist to process them into finished goods. They also buy consumables in the cities and sell them in the outskirts. They make money based on simple arbitrage.
There are the porters; these players accept the transportation contracts of the merchants, moving the goods for the merchants. They make their coin from the contracts, and can specialize in their role by being able to transport more than anyone else.
There are the artisans; characters in the cities that break down the loot items from the escalation zone and produce consumables. They make the most coin when they can work uninterrupted, and traveling out several hexes to get a lower price on their raw materials and higher price for their product isn't always cost-effective, especially since they are less able to resist banditry than characters who specialize at transportation.
It's easy for someone to fit somewhere between these archetypes; an alchemist who can set up a mobile lab near the fight and produce even a limited selection of items can cut out several middlemen and make a higher margin. A merchant could do his own transportation instead of hiring someone else, assuming a greater risk in return for a higher expected return, or the players fighting in the zone could arrange for the transportation of their own consumables to the area and loot from the area, either by taking time off from fighting or by hiring someone to do it.
Just read enough of this so as to get the gist(I think): http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Market_guide
If I can place buy/sell orders and also sell goods from afar through alts, what is the incentive for the merchant to move goods? Is it just required for ppl that want goods delivered?
You need production chain goods at the location where they will be processed, and you need finished goods in the hands of the people who will use them. It might be a major trip to pick up something from a distant location, not just a quick trip through PoK.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bringslite wrote:
Just read enough of this so as to get the gist(I think): http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Market_guide
If I can place buy/sell orders and also sell goods from afar through alts, what is the incentive for the merchant to move goods? Is it just required for ppl that want goods delivered?
You need production chain goods at the location where they will be processed, and you need finished goods in the hands of the people who will use them. It might be a major trip to pick up something from a distant location, not just a quick trip through PoK.
The eve market is always a buyer pickup market. It seems a reasonable way to go as the buyer has full information of where the goods are and can base their buying decisions accordingly.
If GW goes with the EVE model, and ZenPagan's info is correct, I still don't see (and am confirmed in my blindness) why a seller will ever have to move goods. That was my post.
Am I missing your point?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ZenPagan
@Bringlite that was me and I still think they will, everything they have said about economics has made it sound to me like that is the plan
While you may have mentioned it earlier (not sure) it was actually this that sparked my questions:
GW has persistently offered a strategy that makes anything that is available to the few (such as those who might use PFOmarkets.info) should be available to all. This seems to be one of their ways of combating "griefing" in the sense of taking advantage of the system in unintended ways.
It will be interesting what they decide here. While I would prefer a "local" economy only (although everyone is welcome to scout other areas and their markets), I think they will opt for an almost exactly EVE-like system.
@Bringslite
A merchant will move goods for exactly the same reason that they do in Eve.
If I sell it in the market here I can only charge 100 groats for it as it is not in high demand and people won't travel here just to fetch it unless I pitch the price really low, however if I take it over there I can charge 1000 groats an item because it is convenient for the buyers to get at.
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Best thing to do Bringlite, and no I am serious here :)
Try out Eve yourself there is a 2 week trial that costs you nothing but a little time to download, that is more than enough time to poke around the Eve market system
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope they do not use an EVE type system. That would be a huge PFO fail. I would make zero sense in a fantasy game world to have a high tech market like that. Local market, individual vendors, AH for the settlement (and possibly a more comprehensive AH for a Kingdom), and contract purchases and sales. Regional or global AH is not part of the PFO aesthetic.