The shadow is pretty vicious since you need magic weapons or magic to even deal with it. It can also scout ahead for the party.
PS:The str damage it does is a good debuffer also.
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I am playing a Rogue/Shadowdancer now and I am liking it. I plan to take a total of four levels in Shadowdancer for shadow jump.
My only complaint is that in 3.5 the Shadowdancer got sneak attack at the same rate as the rogue and in Pathfinder there is no sneak attack. So, I have sacrificed about 2d6 in sneak attack damage so far.
And I do not have problems with the rogue. Every character class has it's role and I am happy with the role of a rogue.
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I am Currently playing a Halfling Rogue 5 / Shadow Dancer 6
I am taking all the flanking feats I can get my hands on. Power wise I agree not the best but for scouting and sneaky stealth... nothing beats us as a team. If your allowed 3.5 PRC A good mix in is the Jaunter only different pre-req is Spring attack which is right in line with your other feats.
I thought that shadow could talk, just because wraiths can. I guess the scouting thing is out. They should have made it telepathic for the Shadowdancer.
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Hide in plain sight is AMAZING, and almost worth the dip itself. I'm going Rogue 5/Shadowdancer 4/back to rogue for that plus the shadow companion, as well as shadow illusion, call, and jump; you lose out on sneak attack damage, but get some really neat abilities and even better stealth.
For me, it's more a flavor thing, but even in terms of optimization it's not that bad. You lose added damage for versatility.
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Note that in the RAW, HiPS or stealth does NOT make your foe lose his dex, thus allowing for Sneak attack (well unless you sneak around to a flanking posn, etc).
Paizo has been thinking about changing this, there's a blog talking about it, I think in Nov 2011.
But still currently, under the RAW, HiPS does not = Sneak Attack.
It is RAI though and it often makes a better game than RAW does. I am sure if you sit at their tables the hiding character gets his sneak attacks in.
edit:I could not even understand my own writing.
He would not be flat-footed?
Nope. Well, of course on the first round of combat, whoevers Init hasn't gone yet is flat footed, and certainly HiPS could lead to a surprise situation.
But after round one, and barring flanking, it does not.
It is RAI thought which makes a better game than RAW does. I am sure if you sit at their tables the hiding character gets his sneak attacks in.
Somewhat debateable. The blog makes it clear that a lot of rules need to be re-written to make it work, including other senses, what sort of action HiPS is, and so forth. I imagine many of the designers do play with those proposed rules, but since they have stalled making them official, it is by no means unanimous.
It is RAI thought which makes a better game than RAW does. I am sure if you sit at their tables the hiding character gets his sneak attacks in.Somewhat debateable. The blog makes it clear that a lot of rules need to be re-written to make it work, including other senses, what sort of action HiPS is, and so forth. I imagine many of the designers do play with those proposed rules, but since they have stalled making them official, it is by no means unanimous.
Since these guys also came from 3.5, and the rules are written the same way, and the 3.5 articles explaining rules intention says hiders do get sneak attack it is somewhat clear.
I really doubt they just forgot to change an old 3.5 rule.
Why does invisibility even work then? Where is this blog? If this is truly raw, then that is sad.
There is a blog on stealth and the designers admit that by RAW hiding does not get deny dex.
When they redo the stealth rules that is something that is supposed to be on the agenda. I hope they do the errata even if they don't redo stealth.
One of the idea behind redoing stealth was to allow people to be able to sneak up on someone in the middle of combat kind of like people do in movies.
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Links to stealth playtest
stealth playtest 1
Since these guys also came from 3.5, and the rules are written the same way, and the 3.5 articles explaining rules intention says hiders do get sneak attack it is somewhat clear.I really doubt they just forgot to change an old 3.5 rule.
Well, it wasn't even a rule in 3.5 until that article came out, and that was fairly late in the game.
But Stealth and Perception both work considerably differently in PF than 3.5. The quote for HiPS is almost identical, agreed- but the rules for Stealth and Perception are WAY different.
The blog makes it clear, it wasn't just that they forgot. Allowing Stealth to give SA opens up a whole can of worms- pages and pages of comments, and a very long blog, changing quite a few things.
Mind you, if they make that change official, I have no problem with it. It clears up lots of other things, too.
Links to stealth playtest
stealth playtest 1
Thanks for those links!
Since these guys also came from 3.5, and the rules are written the same way, and the 3.5 articles explaining rules intention says hiders do get sneak attack it is somewhat clear.I really doubt they just forgot to change an old 3.5 rule.
Well, it wasn't even a rule in 3.5 until that article came out, and that was fairly late in the game.
But Stealth and Perception both work considerably differently in PF than 3.5. The quote for HiPS is almost identical, agreed- but the rules for Stealth and Perception are WAY different.
The blog makes it clear, it wasn't just that they forgot. Allowing Stealth to give SA opens up a whole can of worms- pages and pages of comments, and a very long blog, changing quite a few things.
Mind you, if they make that change official, I have no problem with it. It clears up lots of other things, too.
I was saying that was the intent. :)
Why they did not errata it instead of making an article on the website is something I will never know.You're welcome for the links. I do wish they could find a way to sneak up on someone in the middle of the game, without resorting to some type of facing rule.
I was saying that was the intent. :)
Why they did not errata it instead of making an article on the website is something I will never know.You're welcome for the links. I do wish they could find a way to sneak up on someone in the middle of the game, without resorting to some type of facing rule.
Maybe, hard to tell.
Well, it turns out, if you read those Blogs and the resulting comments, it opens a HUGE can 'o worms. Much to much to simply FAQ or Errata.
Yeah, I know. And without making it too much work or too broken.
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I played a paladin/shadowdancer styled after Batman once. It was fun going in and out of the shadows, scaring the bejeezus out of bad guys before beating them to a pulp.
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I played a paladin/shadowdancer styled after Batman once. It was fun going in and out of the shadows, scaring the bejeezus out of bad guys before beating them to a pulp.
Nice... I have a Paladin / Rogue / Shadow Dancer / Inquisitor build that I made after a great series of books. Shadow Knights - work for governments seeking out internal plots, They work alone or in pairs with little help and usually deep undercover. They sometimes hire local heros or adventures if needed. They have to be able to do a little bit of everything.
In answer to wraithstrike:
I thought that shadow could talk, just because wraiths can. I guess the scouting thing is out. They should have made it telepathic for the Shadowdancer.
From the PRD:
[The Shadow] can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer.
So some kind of communication is possible - how exactly seems to be up to the GM - I'd go for some kind of whispering; nothing more like a faint breeze or rasping sound to others but like normal speech for the shadowdancer.
To give the shadow companion some more survivability and since the SD does not advance in SA, I'd start with 5 levels of ranger (or 6 for another combat style feat and a second attack).
High Dex build, two kukris and go for crit feats.
Ruyan.
I had a player who ran a very effective shadowdancer--he rarely posts here or I'd let him speak for himself.
Final build was *something* like Halfling Fighter 2/Rogue 11/Shadowdancer 6 (he started as a 2nd level Fighter/Rogue in 3.5, hit Shadowdancer as soon as he could; we switched to Pathfinder at high levels when the final version of the game came out).
Being a halfling with a very high Dex, he was extremely hard to hit and had an insane Stealth score. I had to struggle to build a character that could even try to Perceive him. He had high Acrobatics and between that and Shadow Jump he excelled at getting into flanking position to deliver rogue sneak attack.
He tended to not use his shadow companion very often out of fear of the penalties of it getting hurt, but he would have been even more effective if he had (cleric finally convinced him she could heal any damage dealt by temporary loss of the shadow, which made him quite effective).
Crowning moments of awesome include getting trapped by a dragon's snatch ability and using Shadow Jump to get out of the dragons's mouth....
Twice.
And climbing up a wall and then divebombing a Nightwalker (he couldn't sneak attack it so he was just harrying it any way he could).
He regularly dealt large amounts of damage with sneak attack and excellent teamwork for setting up flanks and other positions that set the party to its advantage. Part of this was player cleverness, but shadow jump and hide in plain sight were also major parts of his strategies (and high enough levels in the class to make shadow jump really useful).
Out of combat beyond normal roguey stuff he made a very good scout and of course could scout on his own and never get caught.
Sunbeam: You need to take a look at the Dimensional Agility feat and the feats that follow it.
I made a post about a similar sort of character here if you'd like some ideas.
Also in the build that Deathquaker was refering to the Fighter levels are likely used for weapon proficiencies and feats more than anything else. A 2 level dip into fighter for a melee focused character is pretty common. As is a 4 level dip for any character specializing in a single weapon (for the weapon specialization feat).
Ranger with a dip or two in SHD could be scary.
It's a good class. I suggest going from monk, since now there's a feat to add half your non monk level to unarmed damage.
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@ the OP, sunbeam:
I like the Shadowdancer PrC, there are some issues with damage but they can be overcome depending on what type of rogue you want to play.
One big thing to think about is how you plan to approach combat, for instance do you want to do hit and run tactics only getting into close combat and flanking when there is no other choice (HiPS + Spring Attack feat), or do you plan to team up with your shadow and deal as much sneak attack damage as possible via flanking?
- If you want to do hit and run/hide tactics I would go with the Poisoner archetype in the APG and blow a few feats to pick up Martial Weapon Proficiency Scimitar, Weapon Focus Scimitar, Weapon Finesse, and Dervish Dance (if your DM allows).
- If you want to stand and fight and do as much Sneak Attack damage as possible I would take the Knife Master archetype in the Ultimate Combat and go with the TWF chain of feats.
-- Both of these weapon choices are DEX heavy. If you go with Scimitar/Dervish Dance your DEX will be added to damage, if you go with the twin knives there is an enchantment in Pathfinders Society Field Guide called Agile that adds DEX to damage.
Second big thing to think about is Archetypes, what kind of rogue do you want to be. If you want to be more effective in combat I would highly recommend either Poisoner from APG or Knife Master from Ultimate Combat. If you are going to stay in close combat and go for the flanking I would consider keeping Uncanny Dodge and IUD so you don't get flanked in the process. If you do want to take an archetype to replace UD and IUD I would consider either Bandit from UC (if you plan to do a lot of ambushing) or Scout from APG (with this you will be able to get SA damage with hit/run tactics even if your DM doesn't allow SA from HiPS and Stealth - I've never had one do that but you might).
Think about taking advantage of your Shadow's strengths. The Shadow can go into floors and walls so talk to your DM and let him know you have gone over basic tactics with your Shadow before hand and let him know what the Shadow's basic combat tactics will be. Remember the Shadow has a 16 WIS score (very high) and a 6 INT score (not that high, but definitely not retarded). If your DM wants more maybe you could RP some combat scenarios with your party and the Shadow. Another thing to remember about the Shadow is that it deals direct STR damage, potentially a crippling amount. Why not help him out, as soon as you can take the Crippling Strike. If you are a Poisoner I would also invest a lot into STR draining poisons.
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@ Shem: The Shadowdancer class has never had a Sneak Attack progression, not even in 3.5 rules. Check it out.
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@ wraithstrike: If you could post links to the posts in the Stealth Playtests where Designers admitted that in PF attacking from Stealth doesn't grant Sneak Attack I would appreciate it. I would be very interested to see exactly what that/those Designers said.
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@ waithstrike and DrDeth: The debate of Attacking from Stealth granting/not granting Sneak Attack has come up before: see this thread. I have never seen PF Designers actually comment on this but wraithstrike says they may have in the Stealth Playtest threads, I would like to read those posts (Preferably without reading both threads entirely to find them). However, the matter was clearly addressed in 3.5 FAQ and as a rule of thumb, 3.5 rules and FAQ have generally been carried over to PF unless specifically noted.
If a rogue has successfully hidden behind some bushes and fires an arrow at a target less than 30 feet away from her, does she deal sneak attack damage?
Yes. The rules don’t come right out and say this, but a character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe flatfooted, and thus deals sneak attack damage.
The rules may not have been written perfectly but even from 3.5 the intent was that attacking from a hidden position or Stealth does grant Sneak Attack.
sunbeam: Your right, the Dimensional line of feats is better than Quicken. In fact, they end up better than the 3.x prestige class that used to take advantage of this tactic called the Telflamar Shadowlord.
One route to take would be to take levels in Monk until you get abundant step and then go into shadowdancer all the while taking these feats. It would give you a lot of synergy and multiple ways of using the feats. Also, as I posted in the thread that I linked another option is to use Horizon Walker to get the terrain mastery for Astral to gain Dimension Door as a class ability. Or you could even do some combination of all 3.
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I tried to find the specific post, but I could not, Shadowlord. In any event I have never known a GM to deny a hidden character a sneak attack.
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Wraithstrike posted the links to the two blogs up thread a bit. Yes, you have to read the entire blog (but not all the posts, just the designers Blog) and they admit that they have proposed these new rules on stealth etc to allow Stealth getting SA.
I am going to cut & paste a few sections:
"Speaking of hidden, while we have kept the invisible condition, and have even strengthened the wording on that condition a bit, we have also created a lesser, connected condition called hidden. You gain the hidden condition when you benefit from Stealth..." "Conditions
Hidden: You are difficult to detect but you not invisible. A hidden creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)....."
Indeed you are right but even in 3.5= "The rules don’t come right out and say this," but they FAQed it there. In PF Stealth and Perception are different skills. You can houserule it if you like, but the designers have made it very clear it is not RAW currently.
There's no condition currently called Hidden and under current PF RAW only Invisible make foes lose their DEX.
My current DM does not allow it. Nor do they allow it in the PFS games.
Stealth was equal to hide and move silently in 3.5 that is why a hidden character in 3.5 is equal to stealthed in Pathfinder..
There was no hidden condition in 3.5 either which is why the rules of the game artcle expanded on it.
I never said RAW allowed it, but it is RAI every GM I know allows it. If you are not aware of an enemy you are denied dex. If you are denied dex you can be sneak attacked.
Can a shadowdancer even make used of the dimensional line of feats? He doesn't have access to dimension door or the abundant step class feature.
That is a good question RD. After checking, the RAW says by abundant step or dimension door which seems very specific. I figured if it was meant for any effect that was similar to dimension door it would have been worded as such, and not called out abundant step as the only alternate to dimension door.
Shadow Jump uses Dimension Door.
Shadow Jump uses Dimension Door.
No it doesn't. It allows you to travel as if using dimension door just like abundant step does.
Shadow Jump uses Dimension Door.No it doesn't. It allows you to travel as if using dimension door just like abundant step does.
Exactly the point I was leading up to. You are NOT casting dimension door, you are activating a shadow travel ability. It is NOT the same thing.
I humbly disagree. A dimension door by any other name is still but a dimension door. The fact that the class ability is not called dimension door doesn't mean that it isn't using an effect that is a dimension door. A more limited dimension door, yes, but a dimension door nonetheless.
Your welcome to post it up in the rules advice forum to see if you can get the attention of a designer but I'm fairly certain what they will say. Even so by that point you are begining to ask what the intention of the rules are which really rests in the hands of the DMs anyway. Personally, I think you would be hard pressed to find a DM who wouldn't allow it.
Just to make sure we aren't arguing a moot point here: wraithstrike and Ravingdork, how would you rule on this if you were the DM?
sunbeam: how would your DM rule?
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Negative. An ability that says it works like X is still not X. That sentence is only there to let you know how it works. In this game being similar to something and being that thing makes a big difference.
Note that abundant step also used as if in its description, and if still had to be called out in order to be eligible
Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level. He cannot take other creatures with him when he uses this ability.
If being like an ability is all that was required then abundant step would not have needed to be called out separately from dimension door as a prerequisite. The fact that they needed to call it out directly and they did not call out the shadowdancer ability proves that by RAW and RAI those are the only two abilities that are affected.
If any ability that referenced dimension door was eligible the wording would have been made in such a manner as to include all similar abilities, and not two specific one.
RAW and RAI:I would tell the player it would not work.
As for me making it would probably not happen since I try to limit house rules.
Now maybe you think the devs made an error with the way it was written, but I don't think it was mistake. Either way RAW says it does not work.
Dimensional Assault
You have been trained to use magical movement as part of your combat tactics.
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility.
The shadow dancer nor the monk is casting anything. The monk however is using his class feature. The shadowdancer falls into neither category which I why I don't think it is an accident.
I disagree with your interpretation of RAW and RAI. But I guess it is a good thing you are not the sole arbitor of such decisions. Neither am I. It is the DM at the table who truly matters.
The RAW is what is written in the books. RAW it ain't happening unless you can show how the shadowdancer is casting a spell or using a monk ability. I don't see either one.
Now if you want to claim the shadowdancer is casting a spell then why is the monk ability not casting a spell also, since both abilities use very similar language, and why would the monk ability need to be called out separately if it is already casting the spell?
I am not saying it is wrong for a GM to allow it. I am saying it is a houserule until presented with logic to the contrary.
edit:I realize you have made your mind up. This is more for anyone else who reads this later.
The RAW says they can't do so, and I think the RAI is what the RAW is. Sometimes RAI does not match RAW. This time I think they line up perfectly well.
The "I" can be interpreted or intended depending on who you ask.
If someone can come up with some logic to refute my above points that is supported by the rules I will change my stance on RAW and probably RAI also.
It is fair for them to be so exclusive when they(the devs) don't mean to do so. Normally when they intend for an option to be open they would say something like "cast dimension door or use any ability that references it". They called out a specific ability. Now if the shadowdancer had come out in the APG, and the Dimensional Assualt feat was in the core book then you could argue that the only reason the shadowdancer ability was excluded was because it did not exist. In this case however the both the monk and shadowdancer were already in existance, and only one of them was called out. They specifically called the monk ability out rather than using verbage that would account for both the monk and the shadowdancer so I can't see this as an oversight where the RAW does not match RAI.