A PC is attacked with a ray of enfeeblement for a penalty of 7 Strength. The PC makes his Fort save reducing the penalty by half (3.5 rounded-down to 3), for an ultimate penalty of 4?
I have a player that believes the penalty should be half as much (i.e. 3) instead of reduced by half.
So, should the ultimate penalty in this case be 3 or 4?
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Per the RAW under "Getting Started"
Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.
7 divided by 2 = 3.5 rounded down to 3.
The character should only take a penalty of 3, otherwise they are not taking half, but half +1.
You could argue it either way (and you are), and a GM is always free to change it, but I'm pretty sure 3 is the correct answer. The spell itself is "Fortitude half" which generally means "Roll damage, then cut in half if the target made the save". That would produce the 3.
The "reduce the penalty by half" wording could also mean that you subtract 3.5 from the penalty, which would leave it at 3.5, which rounds down to 3. You only round final numbers, not each intermediate stage: "In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger." (There are exceptions to this - if you're under the effects of shield other, and you save against a spell, you take half damage (rounded down), of which half (rounded down again) is sent to your protector.)
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Also, under Magic:
Saving Throw
Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The saving throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.
Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.
Partial: The spell has an effect on its subject. A successful saving throw means that some lesser effect occurs.
Half: The spell deals damage, and a successful saving throw halves the damage taken (round down).
Not it does not say that it reduces the damage by half, but that the victim only takes 1/2 the damage (rounded down).
Also, under Magic:
Not it does not say that it reduces the damage by half, but that the victim only takes 1/2 the damage (rounded down).Saving Throw
Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The saving throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.
Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.
Partial: The spell has an effect on its subject. A successful saving throw means that some lesser effect occurs.
Half: The spell deals damage, and a successful saving throw halves the damage taken (round down).
In this case, that's not necessarily a valid argument, because the spell itself say "A successful Fortitude save reduces this penalty by half." And the specific spell text would override that general rule. The intent is pretty clearly (to me) to be invoking that general rule rather than overriding it, but this is a case where citing it doesn't necessarily help.
Also, under Magic:
Not it does not say that it reduces the damage by half, but that the victim only takes 1/2 the damage (rounded down).
Right, but in the case of ray of enfeeblement, we are not dealing with damage, we are dealing with a penalty. If the spell only had the Saving Throw line as "Fortitude Half", I don't think there would be any confusion, however it specifically has text in the spell description that says "A successful Fortitude save reduces this penalty by half.", which is mathematically something different. However, as Bobson suggested, it may be that the right answer will come out if rounding isn't applied to the intermediate step.
Thanks to all for the responses.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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In my experience, the game uses "halved", "half" and "reduce by half" interchangeably. I don't think they were expecting you to round off the half before subtracting it from the total.
Do all your division and subtraction first, save the 'round down' step until the very end.
Just like ANY calculation where you are doing math, you should only be rounding the final result of the calculation.
Just like ANY calculation where you are doing math, you should only be rounding the final result of the calculation.
I'll assume we are talking within the context of PF rules and not math in general ;)
Also, under Magic:
Not it does not say that it reduces the damage by half, but that the victim only takes 1/2 the damage (rounded down).Right, but in the case of ray of enfeeblement, we are not dealing with damage, we are dealing with a penalty. If the spell only had the Saving Throw line as "Fortitude Half", I don't think there would be any confusion, however it specifically has text in the spell description that says "A successful Fortitude save reduces this penalty by half.", which is mathematically something different. However, as Bobson suggested, it may be that the right answer will come out if rounding isn't applied to the intermediate step.
Thanks to all for the responses.
That is an ability damage effect so it's also a damage effect.
That is an ability damage effect so it's also a damage effect.
I'm not arguing that there isn't a general rule that when a spell has "Saving Throw <stat> Half", the amount should be reduced to 1/2 the full effect, rounded down. I was pointing out that the Pathfinder revision of the 3.x ray of enfeeblement added a seemingly contradictory line that muddied the interpretation. There is another Pathfinder rule that states "the specific trumps the general." Without the added text, I don't think there would be any confusion.
Also, ray of enfeeblement is not an ability damage effect it is a penalty--there is a distinct difference.
Just like ANY calculation where you are doing math, you should only be rounding the final result of the calculation.
This is actually not correct. Math should only be done with numbers rounded to significant digits before the operations are applied. Doing math without watching significant digits can lead to some unwanted physical results. According to the physics teacher who hammered us on this subject, this sort of thing led to a materials failure in an airplane once. The designer had not used significant digits in his calculating.
This is actually not correct. Math should only be done with numbers rounded to significant digits before the operations are applied. Doing math without watching significant digits can lead to some unwanted physical results. According to the physics teacher who hammered us on this subject, this sort of thing led to a materials failure in an airplane once. The designer had not used significant digits in his calculating.Just like ANY calculation where you are doing math, you should only be rounding the final result of the calculation.
Thankfully, confined to the scope of just the Pathfinder rules the worse that can happen is the death of a PC/NPC :)
You always round down unless the rules say otherwise. The answer is 3.
You always round down unless the rules say otherwise. The answer is 3.
If you always round down, then the answer is 4. The real question seems to be when to round down. Using the specific text of the spell ... "reduce the penalty by half" and half of 7 is 3.5, rounded down to 3. So we are back to reducing the penalty by 3. 7-3=4.
However, we are left with trying to figure out the RAI, which seems to lead to simply using the Saving Throw line and to ignore the additional text in the spell description about "reducing the penalty by half."
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You always round down unless the rules say otherwise. The answer is 3.If you always round down, then the answer is 4. The real question seems to be when to round down. Using the specific text of the spell ... "reduce the penalty by half" and half of 7 is 3.5, rounded down to 3. So we are back to reducing the penalty by 3. 7-3=4.
However, we are left with trying to figure out the RAI, which seems to lead to simply using the Saving Throw line and to ignore the additional text in the spell description about "reducing the penalty by half."
There is no difference in the books for these two lines:
"reduce the penalty by half"
"reduce the damage by half"
The character is taking a penalty to their STR stat. If they succeed at a saving throw, they take 1/2 the normal penalty to their STR stat.
As the spell says:
A coruscating ray springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1. A successful Fortitude save reduces this penalty by half. This penalty does not stack with itself. Apply the highest penalty instead.
I highlighted the important lines. The spell calls out the amount of penalty that the victim takes to their STR score, and then states that if you succeed at the fort save, you reduce that penalty by half. You end up doing the round at the end of the equation, not in the middle. In this case, the PC should take a 3.5 point penalty on their STR score, rounded down to 3 per the PF rules of rounding. Making the PC take a STR penalty of 4 is actually rounding up.
Remember "penalty" is a defined word in PF:
Penalty: Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another.
Round up to make them mad. My DM threw a caster that had ray of enfeeblements without saves. Seemed a little cheap considering I was the paladin and he caused a near tpk because of it. However it was fun and I don't regret it happening.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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You always round down unless the rules say otherwise. The answer is 3.If you always round down, then the answer is 4. The real question seems to be when to round down. Using the specific text of the spell ... "reduce the penalty by half" and half of 7 is 3.5, rounded down to 3. So we are back to reducing the penalty by 3. 7-3=4.
However, we are left with trying to figure out the RAI, which seems to lead to simply using the Saving Throw line and to ignore the additional text in the spell description about "reducing the penalty by half."
Like I said, RAI is that "half", "halved", and "reduced by half" (and any other variation, really) all mean the same thing. Having them mean different things in the game needlessly complicates things.
Reduce the penalty by half (3.5), round down (3), apply it to the character (-3 to Str).