1. sniper with crossbow (might upgrade to rifle) 2. 2 weapon rogue (possibly knife thrower with 2 weapon fighting and rapid shot) 3. Scout with lance SA is multiplied yes? Sugestions on how to make useful to. What race, if sniper my DM okayed goblin.
Ninja is okay to.
Lance damage does not multiply sneak attack, since its extra dice, not a static bonus.
Lance damage does not multiply sneak attack, since its extra dice, not a static bonus.
oh ):
so what would you sugest?
any help please.
What do you want your rogue to do?
Sneak, deal mega damage, find traps, scout, act as the party face?
Also, what else is in your adventuring party?
deal mega damage and scout
We have an evocation wiz, and melee inquisitor +1 other I think he is tanking
Well, first I would not go with firearms, makes sneaking a little tough, and playing a ranged rogue is tough enough as it is. A ranged rogue is severely disadvantaged as far as damage output is concerned, obviously because a melee rogue can get sneak attacks any time he can position himself in a flank, whereas a ranged rogue can only get sneak attacks when he can either successfully make stealth checks with cover or concealment within 30' of his target, or if he can achieve total concealment and his target has no concealment. (such as having invisibility or improved invisibility cast on him) The advantage a ranged rogue has is improved survivability.
The two-weapon fighting knife thrower is not a bad choice at all, because it gives you the option of short range or melee, thus greatly increasing your options for damage output, while still giving you a good option for staying out of melee range. If you do choose this build, I would suggest halfling for your race, as your ranged attack bonus will be increased by size and dexterity bonuses, all saves have a +1 bonus, perception, acrobatics and climb bonuses, and the charisma bonus helps if you choose to put ranks in use magic device.
sorry about not putting priorities out.
I would go with a high strength ninja. I recommend either orc or dwarf for the darkvision, because you can't stab someone if you can't see them clearly.
You can reskin the ninja to be a rogue or whatever you want, but the ability to vanish to sneak attack when you can't flank is invaluable.
What Level/ stat generation are you using?
1 20 pt.
also orc has a -2 Cha
So knife fighter then or ninja also stats.
Half orc, sorry. +2 to whatever stat you want.
STR 16 (14+2)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 12
CHA 14
You can use a katana or an axe, your choice.
A feat isn't occuring to me at the moment.
feats to please
If you go rogue take the Knife Fighter archetype and always palm your blades. Power Attack might be a handy feat. Look for melee focused Rogue Talents like Deft Palm or Powerful Sneak. Also expect that, if you're fighting more than one decent monster at a time you'll take a lot of damage.
ok thanks anything else would help
Traits:
Toothy (because you can sneak attack off a bite attack)
+1 to will save (there's a dozen of them)
_______
Feats:
Improved initiative if nothing else.
Improved unarmed strike if you want to be able to charge (you pick up dragon style at 3rd level and can charge through friends and difficult terrain)
Sap adept so you can take sap master and get a very nasty opening punch in the face at 5th level.
bignorsewolf I'm thinking of going knifefighter for the d8
bignorsewolf I'm thinking of going knifefighter for the d8
you're going to want either (both?) improved initiative to go first, and point blank/precise shot if you plan on throwing. Its a -8 effectively to throw into melee most times, because you have a -4 for shooting into melee, and the target gets a +4 cover bonus. On a 3/4 bab rogue that means you miss.
bignorsewolf I'm thinking of going knifefighter for the d8
you're going to want either (both?) improved initiative to go first, and point blank/precise shot if you plan on throwing. Its a -8 effectively to throw into melee most times, because you have a -4 for shooting into melee, and the target gets a +4 cover bonus. On a 3/4 bab rogue that means you miss.
So no throwing, would knife rogue duelweilding melee be a viable fighting style?
I would get +2d8 if I went 2-weapon fighting and with goblin I'd get +1 to hit and my first feat would be weapon finese.
what stats should I have?
which feats would be best other then the two-weapon fighting feats?
What level are you starting at and do you have any idea how far the campaign will go? Level 10+ Ninja can basically take care of itself for getting SA. But for a low level game with little hope of going past 10, I'd do some sort of full BAB class or classes 3 / rogue or ninja (all other levels) and do an intimidation-based build, working off of Shatter Defenses, which you pick up at 7th level. Yeah, that's not much off from level 10, but...at least before then you have a bunch of beefy full BAB class levels in there to be better in melee with.
Most damaging build would be a TWF Sap Adept and Sap Master build. Either using unarmed strikes, saps, or the Bludgeoner feat with some other bludgeoning weapons. Since you're doing nonlethal, the build combines nicely with the Enforcer feat, which in turn feeds right into the intimidation and Shatter Defenses aspects. Best archetype for it would probably be Thug Rogue, but it doesn't need to be.
lvl 1 I said that before and I was thinking real damage using the rogue (knife adept) but what is better about sap adept, I know it deals X2 dmg but its all non-leathel.
The problem with the bludgeoner build is that it specifically says flat footed, not just denied their dex. I'm not sure what the devs meant when they said flat footed, but as it stands you can really only do obscene damage in the surprise round (when you can't attack) and when you beat them on initiative.(where you'll likely have to move next to them and hit them once)
You should also consider Vivvisectionist Alchemist. With Feral Mutagen discovery you can have three primary natural attacks right at level 2. It's my favorite "Rogue" class. Can combine it with other archetypes, too. I'd go with Internal Alchemist (it's just really cool) or Beastmorph Alchemist (starts off with nothing special but by mid levels is pretty amazing).
If you want to consider a ranged sneak attacker, then dip Oracle for 1 level and take the Water mystery for the Water Sight revelation. It lets you see just fine through all fog and mist. And gives you some spell slots to cast Obscuring Mist (and ability to use wands/scrolls of it w/o use magic device). Put up an Obscuring Mist, stand in it, and shoot. Anyone not adjacent to you cannot see you, and thus SA applies. I think Viv. Alchemist works best with this since you can get the Wings discovery and hover in mid-air inside the mist spell while shooting, but that's just my opinion.
explanation of why its so good would be nice StreamOfTheSky, although I have noticed a lot of people talking about sap adept recently. And what would my roal be?
The problem with the bludgeoner build is that it specifically says flat footed, not just denied their dex. I'm not sure what the devs meant when they said flat footed, but as it stands you can really only do obscene damage in the surprise round (when you can't attack) and when you beat them on initiative.(where you'll likely have to move next to them and hit them once)
Which is why it's necessary to marry the sap master feat chain to the intimidation one. Shatter Defenses makes any shaken or worse creature you hit flatfooted against all other attacks you make against it for the next round. It's an essential feat for the build, and why (along with snagging bonus feats to help with the massive list of required feats) I suggest 3 levels in full BAB classes. That way you have exactly BAB +6 in time for the 7th level feat and don't need to wait till 9th level to get it.
Your skill with your chosen weapon leaves opponents unable to defend themselves if you strike them when their defenses are already compromised.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, base attack bonus +6, proficiency with weapon.
Benefit: Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.
In short: Other than reliable flanking buddies or the obscuring mist water sight combo, it's extremely difficult to consistently get full attack SA in PF. You need to jump through a lot of hoops.
explanation of why its so good would be nice StreamOfTheSky, although I have noticed a lot of people talking about sap adept recently. And what would my roal be?
Why is sap master good? Because it doubles your SA damage. It's really just that simple...
but it's non-lethal
ok so thug, what race StreamOfTheSky 3
Which is why it's necessary to marry the sap master feat chain to the intimidation one.
It takes too long. It looks good on paper or if you're starting past 10th level, but you're going to suck for a lot of levels getting there.
Also Sap Adept looks better then Sap master why, or do they stack?
blackbloodtroll I would but I need skill points
blackbloodtroll I would but I need skill points, to double as a skill monkey type.
Any suggestions for duelweilding knife adept?
or other kind of rogue
Yes, it's nonlethal. That's the trade-off for the damage boost. An unconscious enemy is just as much a threat as a dead one, and very easy to shift into the latter category, though. So the only issue is things immune to nonlethal (but those tend to be the same things immune to feat as well, so you're screwed at that point regardless :) ).
And yes, Sap Adept and Master stack. The former is required for the latter, also.
ok so thug, what race StreamOfTheSky 3
Half-Elf for Skill Focus (Intimidate) isn't bad, Human for the bonus feat, Half-Orc for racial intimidate bonus and some decent racial features (which have some nice swap options in APG if you don't like them, too)...any of those are good. If you're doing a ninja, I really really like the Fetchling race from Bestiary II. Adds to dex and cha, minuses to wis, darkvision and low-light, and in darkness/shadowy illumination when they would normally benefit from 20% concealment, Fetchlings benefit from 50% concealment.
Everyone else says sap adept is to long to become viable StreamOfTheSky until to late so I'm thinking I won't do that do you have other rogue suggestions?
Also I think were fighting a wide variety of creatures.
blackbloodtroll what would you suggest as a fighting style and archetypes all though I'm still leaning rogue of some sort probably knife master duel wielding.
but no SA