
Tiny Coffee Golem |
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Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:I am almost certain that your nemesis would really enjoy his powerful new ally who now hates you almost as much as he does.Step 1) Bind the biggest nasties demon you can.
Step 2) Trap the soul (gem) with a trigger of "until anyone else opens this (lead lined) box."
Step 3) Giftwrap and place under Nemesis's Christmas tree marked "Do not open till Christmas."
Step 4) Christmas morning get some popcorn and your crystal ball.
Step 5) Enjoy the show.
I'll be sure to pick a stupid engine of destruction as opposed to a crafty one. Also I'll put on a disguise to look like my nemesis and say rude and inappropriate things about said stupid engine of destruction's mother as i bind it.

Ashiel |

Ashiel wrote:Enchantments spells are also really bad. Charm person can be used to force people to do anything that's not suicidal. "Kill your children." - "B-But my love..." *opposed Charisma check* "Let me get my knife..."From the description of 'Charm Person' (via the PRD):
Quote:Depending on the person you've charmed, their alignment and goals... doesn't matter how much of a "trusted friend" you are... There are things you just aren't going to get them to do, at least not as a simple request, opposed Charisma check or not.This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person's language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.
It's not a simple request. It's an order. Again, this is another example of Magic =! Diplomacy. It's not you, trying to convince them that it's a good idea. It's you exerting your will over them. Charming a parent and forcing them to kill their children is not commanding them to commit suicide or anything that is dangerous to them (such as setting themselves on fire), but it is pretty darn diabolical.
EDIT: On a side note, I'm pretty sure that this is a favored method of succubi, who have both an enormously high Charisma, and charm monster at will, with a scary DC.

tonyz |

As a GM, I'd certainly rule that charming someone doesn't get them to kill their children. Neither does suggestion unless they were already inclined that way, and attempting either of them directly would probably get people a new saving throw.
Charm just makes you someone's dear friend, who might be able to convince them of something. ("Come along with me, dear. The baby will be fine.")
Suggestion just gets them to do something, preferably something innocuous. ("Feed the kids the special formula in the bottle under the sink" would probably work if the person in question didn't think about it hard.)
Dominate is what you need for someone to do what you say regardless, and even then a suicide command nets them a new saving throw. ("Take the knife and cut the brat's throat. DO IT!")
Whatever happened to subtle, charming, seductive villains (or PCs)?
And succubi definitely work hard on the charm angle first. At least until they get you into bed and tied down.

wraithstrike |

I don't think it anything means you can make them do any activity you wish. I think it was just used as a catch all term such as
"In order to get my lazy employees to do anything I have to yell at them."
That is different from "I can make them do anything just by threatening to fire them."
The second sentence has "anything" used as if it has no limits.

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Finn K wrote:Ashiel wrote:Enchantments spells are also really bad. Charm person can be used to force people to do anything that's not suicidal. "Kill your children." - "B-But my love..." *opposed Charisma check* "Let me get my knife..."From the description of 'Charm Person' (via the PRD):
Quote:Depending on the person you've charmed, their alignment and goals... doesn't matter how much of a "trusted friend" you are... There are things you just aren't going to get them to do, at least not as a simple request, opposed Charisma check or not.This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person's language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.
It's not a simple request. It's an order. Again, this is another example of Magic =! Diplomacy. It's not you, trying to convince them that it's a good idea. It's you exerting your will over them. Charming a parent and forcing them to kill their children is not commanding them to commit suicide or anything that is dangerous to them (such as setting themselves on fire), but it is pretty darn diabolical.
EDIT: On a side note, I'm pretty sure that this is a favored method of succubi, who have both an enormously high Charisma,...
You can play it how you want to. In my game-- it's a harmful order (check the part I bolded above). Because the fluff-text says the person now regards you as a trusted friend and ally, and the fluff text also says it does not allow you to control the charmed person like an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way... Well, seeing as how I think "fluff-texts" are important in interpreting the mechanics: there is no favorable way to take a cold, straight order to kill your kids. And, while it's not physically harmful to the subject-- I interpret "harmful" in light of the rest of the text of the spell, as not only being physical harm, but also including other types of harm-- and it's the same argument I can and will make to the GM in games where I'm a player and someone is trying to use the spell the way you recommend.
You can quite easily get a charmed person to do a lot of things they wouldn't ordinarily do... but asking them to do something that, even if it's not literally suicidal, is clearly going to terminally f*** up their life and their whole reason for living (like a mother going against her own children), it's a step too far into the "never gonna happen" type of order. I stand with Wraithstrike's interpretation regarding the part about convincing the target to do things it wouldn't otherwise be willing to do. It's not a wide-open blanket, literal "do anything" opening for the user of the spell.
You want to make someone follow any order, use dominate. YMMV, of course-- in your game, you can ignore my interpretation of the charm rules (seems like at least a few others agree with my interpretation though, so it's not just me).
BTW-- I played a succubus for quite a while in a 3.5 game where the party was made up of "monster" types... charm monster and a really high charisma is obviously part of a succubus's repertoire, but it's much more effective when you're subtle about it... and yes, the limits I gave for charm person above applied to the way my succubus used her charm monster abilities. Suggestion, now when the suggestion is simply "keep kissing me" and so long as the target keeps doing that, the target keeps getting drained until he or she croaks... now, that's kind of suicidal, but since it's explicitly mentioned that a succubus can use it for that specific purpose... I don't have my 3.5 book in front of me, so I don't know if that was legal in 3.5 but suggestion has changed in PF-- or if the reason that suggestion works when used by a succubus is because the soul-sucking kiss "just feels so good" that it can't possibly be harmful to keep doing it (or it simply is one explicit exception to the prohibition against getting someone to do something overtly suicidal with a suggestion effect).... :D

loimprevisto |

cranewings wrote:This... is a truly disturbing way to view the universe. It does, IMO, change the whole alignment thing from anything truly recognizable as "good" or "evil", to "blue" or "orange". Or, to "Team A" vs. "Team B"-- since both sides prejudge everyone else by which "side" they're on, neither is really good (although they both might be really evil).
Most of our games treat good and evil as stronger forces than free will in most creatures. It doesn't matter if a goblin, red dragon, or demon has done anything evil or not. All that has to do with is opportunity. They are evil waiting to happen so killing them is always good. If you can make it funny, even better.
[offtopic]
Made me think of this..
Ivanova: You're saying just because I'm holding this right now, I'm Green leader? But I'm human!
Former Drazi Leader: Rules of combat older than contact with other races. Did not mention aliens. Rules change…caught up in committee.
[/offtopic]