Trscroggs |
I'm interested in building an Arcanist. My current plan is to make a Tengu Arcanist, though I am not totally set on the race.
The thing is that I have not played a full caster in Society before.
It seems like the Arcanist makes a pretty good support caster or summoner, simply because they don't have enough spells-per-day to be a blaster, and I have played a Eidolon-buffing Summoner before.
Basically I am looking for advice and possible builds for a caster designed for flexibility.
Edit: now that I have fixed my spelling mistake, this question should be a bit easier to answer.
Trscroggs |
I can't find "anarchist" on the additional resources page; what book is it from? It may not be legal for PFS. (Just from the name, it doesn't sound like a god fit for a team game...)
That would me being a dip and misspelling Arcanist, the new playtest caster, and letting spell-check have it.
Curaigh |
I played a PFS tengu arcanist during the playtest. I found the lack of spells even more limiting than a wizard. In PFS the versatility of a massive spell list is limited by the fact that most scenarios do not allow days between encounters to study new/different spells. Without a wizard's bonded object it is even less flexible. Unlike a wizard a slot can not be left open (spontaneous caster) for the 15-minute prepare option.
As wizards (& sorcerers?) the best plan at low-level is to focus on the school/bloodline ability (exploits). You can even take a school or bloodline as an exploit, which in the case of the element abilities, I found the low-level wiz/sorc work better than the arcanists. The 'use during the scenario' rule makes consume magic item tempting, but until you have enough spells to charge from arcane reservoir it is pointless (or the second exploit at level 3).
I think this is a class that will call for a level-one rebuild no matter which way you start.
That said, at first level you can get mage armor for two hours two times a day (more with int) which makes the sword-trained tengu ability a little more enticing. If you want a sword-wielding arcanist that is. :) I hope that rambling helps.
ElyasRavenwood |
I have found a half elf to be an interesting choice for Arcanist. at first level a 1/2 elf gets a skill focus feat for free. I spent mine on Skill focus Arcane. At third level I took Eldritch Heritage : arcane. I then picked Arcane Bond : bonded object, and I now have wizard's bonded object.
Picking up a sorcerer blood line, or wizard school to be very useful.
I hope this helps.
brad2411 |
I made an Arcanist and he was really good. He had as many spells as a wizard would have. He was very versatile and could do more then a wizard but the wizard was more specialized with there school from what I saw. Also the elemental abilities where not very good after the lower levels. The Dimensional slide was a great ability and the metamagic feats where great cause you could add them to the spells. Also Potent Magic helps to make magic work more.
TobiasBlues |
Currently I have an Arcanist, only lvl 1, but he seems to be pretty fun. Yes your spells are a bit limited for casting but you can change them daily. For PFS most of your missions don't give you much time to figure out what you might need but there are some from what I've seen.
Using your exploit to pick up a sorc bloodline or wizard school is probably better than grabbing any of the elemental exploits (the whole having to use your arcane reservoir to use the elemental exploit kinda stinks).
ElyasRavenwood |
Iantxkv,
Perhaps so, However we are still using the play test materiel. So this is a grey area. Does an Arcanist count as a wizard or sorcerer or neither? The Arcanist is a blend of Wizard and Sorcerer. Feats may work a little differently. For example, Expanded Arcana, instead of adding to the list of "Spells Known" for a sorcerer with a list of spells known, It adds to an Arcanist the number of "slots" or spells an arcanist can prepare.
I am sure things will be clarified once the final Arcanist is published in the Advanced class guide.
At the end of the day, in a home game it comes down to what your GM will allow. For PFS, Untill things are clarified by a FAQ, there is room for GM interpretation.
Belafon |
Some comments that I need to preface by saying: The first few levels of arcanist are particularly painful. You get so few spells known and so few slots that levels 1-3 are excruciating. Level 5 or 6 is where the class takes off.
Arcanists are the definition of flexibility. I have found an arcanist to be a pretty good blaster. You get the same number of maximum spells per level as a wizard (less than a sorcerer), get to that maximum earlier, and don't have to have the spell memorized more than once.
Arcane Reservoir is what makes the class work. Especially with the potent magic exploit. The ability to add one (or two) to the caster level or save DC is excellent. 8d6 fireballs instead of 6d6 at sixth level. Magic missile with an extra missile if you normally get less than 5.
Arcanists are good buffers. The CL boost is particularly good for buff spells. They last longer and - in the case of spells like Greater Magic Weapon - have a better modifier than someone else of your class.
One thing that makes the class supremely flexible is leaving a couple of slots open. If you run into an unusual situation that one spell would be perfect for, you have the solution. It works just like doing it with a wizard - spend 15 minutes with your spellbook to memorize the new spell. However unlike a wizard you can use it again and again. (Depending on how things shake out with the "alternate classes" when the book is published you MAY be able to use a feat to take the Fast Study wizard arcane discovery. Note that at the moment this is NOT legal and I wouldn't plan on it.)
Jokon Yew |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Does an Arcanist count as a wizard or sorcerer or neither? The Arcanist is a blend of Wizard and Sorcerer. Feats may work a little differently. For example, Expanded Arcana, instead of adding to the list of "Spells Known" for a sorcerer with a list of spells known, It adds to an Arcanist the number of "slots" or spells an arcanist can prepare.
All of the advanced classes count as both for purposes of effects that are dependent on their constituent classes. That is, an arcanist is considered a wizard and a sorceror. This means that you can't multiclass arcanist/wizard, as the arcanist is already a wizard. This is particularly potent for a bloodrager, as there are numerous items that grant barbarian rage powers (which are usable per the bloodrage ability as that qualifies as rage for all effects that affect it).
Where did you find your writing that Expanded Arcana does that for arcanists? I'm pretty sure that since arcanists prepare spells, they can't take the Expanded Arcana feat. They cast spontaneously, but don't actually have a list of spells known. Spell Mastery is not valid RAW, but it's more in line with the type of feat you're looking for.
Some comments that I need to preface by saying: The first few levels of arcanist are particularly painful. You get so few spells known and so few slots that levels 1-3 are excruciating. Level 5 or 6 is where the class takes off.
Arcanists prepare spells from a spellbook. They don't have any problems with spells known that aren't solvable with gold in PFS.
Under A Bleeding Sun |
I'M pretty sure arcanist takes the spot for best blaster, though I'm sure there are other uses for them. Had one throwing around 13d6+14 fireballs at level 7 that they could change to any element...and all this before using a rod of some sort.
On the lower level issues, just gm 9 games and start him at level 4. I can't remember the last time I played a full arcane caster in society before he had 2nd level spells.
Belafon |
Myles Crocker wrote:Does an Arcanist count as a wizard or sorcerer or neither? The Arcanist is a blend of Wizard and Sorcerer. Feats may work a little differently. For example, Expanded Arcana, instead of adding to the list of "Spells Known" for a sorcerer with a list of spells known, It adds to an Arcanist the number of "slots" or spells an arcanist can prepare.All of the advanced classes count as both for purposes of effects that are dependent on their constituent classes. That is, an arcanist is considered a wizard and a sorceror. This means that you can't multiclass arcanist/wizard, as the arcanist is already a wizard. This is particularly potent for a bloodrager, as there are numerous items that grant barbarian rage powers (which are usable per the bloodrage ability as that qualifies as rage for all effects that affect it).
Well... that's still in a state of flux. As of the last posting the designers had not decided if you count as the alternate (source) classes or not.
I know the playtest document calls them "alternate classes," but I don't think the design team has made a decision about whether or not they count as their component classes for the purpose of qualifying for class-specific feats.It's a good question, though.
At the moment it's entirely up to how the ability works. For example a furious weapon would add to a bloodrager's enhancement bonus since it doesn't require being a barbarian but a warpriest can't take Weapon Specialization (or it isn't decided yet).
Where did you find your writing that Expanded Arcana does that for arcanists? I'm pretty sure that since arcanists prepare spells, they can't take the Expanded Arcana feat. They cast spontaneously, but don't actually have a list of spells known. Spell Mastery is not valid RAW, but it's more in line with the type of feat you're looking for.
Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells known by a spellcaster affect the number of spells the arcanist can prepare.
Good afternoon,
Mike and I have discussed this matter and come to a decision. This is based strongly on the FAQ update that allows one to create a house rule allowing an alchemist, magus, or witch (as spellcasters or extract-preparers that use a book or familiar to prepare spells) to take the feat.
In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, treat the prerequisite for Spell Mastery as though it read "able to prepare 1st-level arcane spells or prepare 1st-level extracts." As appropriate, treat any wizard-specific language in the feat as though it referenced the equivalent language for any qualifying class (e.g. "formula book" or "familiar" instead of "spellbook" or "extract" instead of "spell").
This is a clarification that we are using for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. We intend to update this in a future update of the Pathfinder Society FAQ.
Belafon wrote:Some comments that I need to preface by saying: The first few levels of arcanist are particularly painful. You get so few spells known and so few slots that levels 1-3 are excruciating. Level 5 or 6 is where the class takes off.Arcanists prepare spells from a spellbook. They don't have any problems with spells known that aren't solvable with gold in PFS.
Poor choice of words. I meant "so few spells prepared and so few slots." Good catch.
Robert A Matthews |
Hmmm... I just noticed that in the most recent version of the playtest, it no longer says how many cantrips an Arcanist can cast each day. Should we assume they get 3 at 1st level and 4 every level after that as a Wizard does?
Arcanist is pretty awesome. Being able to mix bloodline arcana and school powers can produce some really cool combos. My arcanist is going Undead Bloodline and Necromancy school.
Magabeus |
Arcanist Cantrip: See table 1-2: 4 at lvl 1.
Cantrips:Arcanists can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table 1–1. These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume spell slots. As with her other spells, these spells are not expended when cast
The reference to 1-1 confuses, as casting cantrips does not cost spells per day they are not on table 1-1. However they are included in 1-2.
Robert A Matthews |
ElyasRavenwood wrote:It does?...
For example, Expanded Arcana, instead of adding to the list of "Spells Known" for a sorcerer with a list of spells known, It adds to an Arcanist the number of "slots" or spells an arcanist can prepare.
...
Yup. That means Human Arcanists can prepare a ton of spells, especially if you take Expanded Arcana.
Feats and other effects that modify
the number of spells known by a spellcaster affect the
number of spells the arcanist can prepare.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
For example, Expanded Arcana, instead of adding to the list of "Spells Known" for a sorcerer with a list of spells known, It adds to an Arcanist the number of "slots" or spells an arcanist can prepare.
Careful; Expanded Arcana requires selecting a specific spell. That is, if you can normally prepare 2 spells of a given level as an arcanist and you take Expanded Arcana, you do NOT get to just prepare any 3 spells each day. Rather, you pick one spell with Expanded Arcana, and each day you can prepare that one spell in addition to your normal 2 that can be anything.
Cap. Darling |
Cap. Darling wrote:ElyasRavenwood wrote:It does?...
For example, Expanded Arcana, instead of adding to the list of "Spells Known" for a sorcerer with a list of spells known, It adds to an Arcanist the number of "slots" or spells an arcanist can prepare.
...
Yup. That means Human Arcanists can prepare a ton of spells, especially if you take Expanded Arcana.
Spells, pg4 wrote:Feats and other effects that modify
the number of spells known by a spellcaster affect the
number of spells the arcanist can prepare.
Ohh nice. I hope some one will let me play one at some point:)
edit: and thanks for telling :)edit2: jiggy@ it seems to be spells perpared not specifc spells.
andreww |
Yup. That means Human Arcanists can prepare a ton of spells, especially if you take Expanded Arcana.
Spells, pg4 wrote:Feats and other effects that modify
the number of spells known by a spellcaster affect the
number of spells the arcanist can prepare.
At the moment that is really not clear. The dev's have not yet confirmed whether or not the ACG classes can take options from their parent classes such as favoured class bonuses. I actually hope that they don't allow the Arcanist to take the human FCB. As it is the Arcanist obsoletes pretty much anyone other than human, half elf, half orc or Aasimar scion of humanity sorcerers. More spells know is the only significant benefit sorcerers have over the class. Without it you are looking at the difference between a group of generally weak bloodline abilities and a single fixed bloodline spell each level versus the ability to change your spell list on a daily basis.
Cap. Darling |
Robert A Matthews wrote:At the moment that is really not clear. The dev's have not yet confirmed whether or not the ACG classes can take options from their parent classes such as favoured class bonuses. I actually hope that they don't allow the Arcanist to take the human FCB. As it is the Arcanist obsoletes pretty much anyone other than human, half elf, half orc or Aasimar scion of humanity sorcerers. More spells know is the only significant benefit sorcerers have over the class. Without it you are looking at the difference between a group of generally weak bloodline abilities and a single fixed bloodline spell each level versus the ability to change your spell list on a daily basis.Yup. That means Human Arcanists can prepare a ton of spells, especially if you take Expanded Arcana.
Spells, pg4 wrote:Feats and other effects that modify
the number of spells known by a spellcaster affect the
number of spells the arcanist can prepare.
Yes most likely they cannot use the serveres favored class option. That would be silly.
andreww |
Careful; Expanded Arcana requires selecting a specific spell. That is, if you can normally prepare 2 spells of a given level as an arcanist and you take Expanded Arcana, you do NOT get to just prepare any 3 spells each day. Rather, you pick one spell with Expanded Arcana, and each day you can prepare that one spell in addition to your normal 2 that can be anything.
This is definitely the impact of Expanded Arcana for Sorcerers, Bards and Oracles but the waters are far muddier with the Arcanist. The actual wording is:
Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells known by a spellcaster affect the number of spells the arcanist can prepare.
That could be read as you only get the particular spell you pick or that you get number of additional slots to prepare of the relevant level. Personally I think the latter interpretation fits more naturally with the wording but even if it doesn't it isn't hard to pick stuff that will be generically useful your entire career that you would always want to have prepared. You can also retrain it later down the line.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Jiggy wrote:Careful; Expanded Arcana requires selecting a specific spell. That is, if you can normally prepare 2 spells of a given level as an arcanist and you take Expanded Arcana, you do NOT get to just prepare any 3 spells each day. Rather, you pick one spell with Expanded Arcana, and each day you can prepare that one spell in addition to your normal 2 that can be anything.This is definitely the impact of Expanded Arcana for Sorcerers, Bards and Oracles but the waters are far muddier with the Arcanist. The actual wording is:
Quote:Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells known by a spellcaster affect the number of spells the arcanist can prepare.That could be read as you only get the particular spell you pick or that you get number of additional slots to prepare of the relevant level. Personally I think the latter interpretation fits more naturally with the wording but even if it doesn't it isn't hard to pick stuff that will be generically useful your entire career that you would always want to have prepared. You can also retrain it later down the line.
The line you cite from the arcanist says effects affect (ha!) your spells prepared instead of known, but that doesn't change what Expanded Arcana says:
Add one spell from your class's spell list to your list of spells known. This is in addition to the number of spells normally gained at each new level in your class. You may instead add two spells from your class's spell list to your list of spells known, but both of these spells must be at least one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast in that class. Once made, these choices cannot be changed.
Heck, let's go ahead and sub in the word "prepared" in place of "known" and see how it reads:
Add one spell from your class's spell list to your list of spells prepared. This is in addition to the number of spells normally gained at each new level in your class. You may instead add two spells from your class's spell list to your list of spells prepared, but both of these spells must be at least one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast in that class. Once made, these choices cannot be changed.
Definitely still choosing a specific spell.
AndIMustMask |
built an arcanist wordcaster to test the ropes a bit, loot it for ideas and such, idk.
ARCANIST WORDCASTER
human arcanist (wordcaster) 20 - this is assuming human will get it's usual FCB of "get an extra spell known/etc."
str 10, dex 20 (+5), con 20 (+5), int 34 (+12), wis 10, cha 24 (+7)
int/int/int/int/int (level), +6 dex/con/int/cha (belt/headband), +5 int, +6 cha (book/wish)
traits
reactionary / gifted adept (undeath)
reservoir
11/40 (at start of day)
exploits
1 - bloodline development (draconic [white or silver]) or school understanding (necromancy)
3 - [see above]
5 - counterspell
7 - spell tinkerer
9 - dimensional slide
11 - counter drain
13 - metamagic knowledge (elemental spell)
15 - metamixing
17 - greater metamagic knowledge (bouncing spell)
19 - item crafting (craft wonderous item)
feats
1 - spell focus (necromancy), improved initiative
3 - varisian tattoo (necromancy)
5 - greater spell focus (necromancy)
7 - undead master
9 - bloodmage initiate (necromancy)
11 - dazing spell
13 - elemetal focus (ice)
15 - greater elemental focus (ice)
17 - spell focus (evocation)
19 - greater spell focus (evocation)
spell slots
7 / 7 / 7 / 7 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 5
words
0 - all 0-level effect/meta/target words
1 - alignment shield (alignment), burning flash (fire), dash (time), fade (concealing), fog bank (weather), force shield (armor)
friendship (command), glide (flight), wrack (pain) | burst (target), line (target) | careful (meta), quiet (meta),
simple (meta)
2 - accellerate (time), disappear (concealing), float (flight), frost fingers (ice), enhance form (body), energy resist (body),
decelerate (time)
3 - undeath (death), servitor III (summoning), torture (pain), complex order (command), paralyze humanoid (binding),
dimension hop (teleportation), lightning blast (electrcity), fire blast (fire), wind wall (wall), ice blast (ice),
translate (language) | barrier (target)
4 - ice wall (ice), acid wave (acid), bestial form (change), servitor IV (summoning), ice blast (ice), unseen shell (concealing)
sound blast (sonic), altered form (change), borrow future (time) | manifestation (meta), mind warp (meta),
5 - servitor V (summoning), stone wall (wall), crush will (command), dimensional jump (teleportation), far casting (language),
| irresistable (meta), penetrating (meta)
6 - servitor VI (summoning), negation (dispelling), resist arcana (dispelling)
7 - servitor VII (summoning), dimensional shift (teleportation), caustic cloud (acid)
8 - servitor VIII (summoning), permanent paralysis (binding), thunder strike (electrcity), winter's wrath (cold)
9 - Servitor IX (summoning), control time (time), dimensional gate (teleportation)
Cap. Darling |
andreww wrote:Jiggy wrote:Careful; Expanded Arcana requires selecting a specific spell. That is, if you can normally prepare 2 spells of a given level as an arcanist and you take Expanded Arcana, you do NOT get to just prepare any 3 spells each day. Rather, you pick one spell with Expanded Arcana, and each day you can prepare that one spell in addition to your normal 2 that can be anything.This is definitely the impact of Expanded Arcana for Sorcerers, Bards and Oracles but the waters are far muddier with the Arcanist. The actual wording is:
Quote:Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells known by a spellcaster affect the number of spells the arcanist can prepare.That could be read as you only get the particular spell you pick or that you get number of additional slots to prepare of the relevant level. Personally I think the latter interpretation fits more naturally with the wording but even if it doesn't it isn't hard to pick stuff that will be generically useful your entire career that you would always want to have prepared. You can also retrain it later down the line.The line you cite from the arcanist says effects affect (ha!) your spells prepared instead of known, but that doesn't change what Expanded Arcana says:
Expanded Arcana wrote:Add one spell from your class's spell list to your list of spells known. This is in addition to the number of spells normally gained at each new level in your class. You may instead add two spells from your class's spell list to your list of spells known, but both of these spells must be at least one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast in that class. Once made, these choices cannot be changed.Heck, let's go ahead and sub in the word "prepared" in place of "known" and see how it reads:
Arcanist's Expanded Arcana wrote:Add one spell from your class's spell list to your list of spells prepared. This is in addition to the number of spells normally gained at each new...
Jiggy, remember that the arcanist part is the latest thing written. If expanded arcana is still an option for arcanist when the book comes i strongy suspect that it will allow an extra Spell prepared and not just a specific one.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
That's entirely possible, but to do so, they'd need to do a FAQ or have some more specific language to that effect in the arcanist. As it is now, though, the arcanist just says you treat "spells known" as "spells prepared"; there is currently no provision for also removing things like "once made, these choices cannot be changed" from related feats.
notabot |
lantzkev wrote:arcanist is not the most op by any stretchQFT. they would have to get behind the alchemist, gunslinger, oracle, certain bards, and witch to truly be OP.
Alchemist, gunslinger, and bards aren't even in reaching distance of wizards, clerics, and druids.
Arcanists are right in the top tiers with witches, wizards, sorcerers, oracles, clerics and druids. Full casters are just better period. Putting a full martial in that list is laughable. Sorry, gunslingers are one trick ponies which are easily countered, and I'm just not even coming close to understanding why you think any bard archetype is OP. Some builds can be really really good, but nothing OP. Witch is one of the weaker full casters, so I assume its because of the hexes, which aren't that big a deal.
AndIMustMask |
Vrog Skyreaver wrote:lantzkev wrote:arcanist is not the most op by any stretchQFT. they would have to get behind the alchemist, gunslinger, oracle, certain bards, and witch to truly be OP.Alchemist, gunslinger, and bards aren't even in reaching distance of wizards, clerics, and druids.
Arcanists are right in the top tiers with witches, wizards, sorcerers, oracles, clerics and druids. Full casters are just better period. Putting a full martial in that list is laughable. Sorry, gunslingers are one trick ponies which are easily countered, and I'm just not even coming close to understanding why you think any bard archetype is OP. Some builds can be really really good, but nothing OP. Witch is one of the weaker full casters, so I assume its because of the hexes, which aren't that big a deal.
the witch's HD uncapped autokill (sleep+coup de grace) that can be used all day every day (with lots of built-in ways for the class to make that save super easy to fail) disagrees with you.
Vrog Skyreaver |
Have you seen the thundercaller? at level 7, I can drop 2 soundbursts a round, that deal 3d8 each.
most full casters will lose in init to a gunslinger, who will then shoot the heck outta them.
Once an alchemist gets fast bombs, they're walking all over a wizard.
and a witch can either have hexes (which are they're own brand of OP), or the ability to grapple at 10+ feet, using their primary ability score (int).
andreww |
the witch's HD uncapped autokill (sleep+coup de grace) that can be used all day every day (with lots of built-in ways for the class to make that save super easy to fail) disagrees with you.
Which ways would those be? Last time I checked you couldn't apply spell focus to increase the DC or persistent spell to force two saves or spell perfection to double the bonus of spell focus and add a free metamagic feat to it. You might force two saves with a different hex or be using ill omen but not much matches the power of spell perfection. I will take a wizard or sorcerer any day of the week over the witch given their rather sub par spell list.
andreww |
Have you seen the thundercaller? at level 7, I can drop 2 soundbursts a round, that deal 3d8 each.
That might be useful for pvp games but in an actual game most enemies will have fortitude as their best save. Also few bards make charisma their primary stat as they simply don't have enough spell slots to make it worth it meaning your DC's will be subpar.
most full casters will lose in init to a gunslinger, who will then shoot the heck outta them.
That is far from certain. Any caster able to have a familiar will be getting an extra +4 closing the gap between their dex stats. Both will be picking improved initiative and probably reactionary. Dex is often a casters second stat so the dice roll almost certainly matters. Even if the gunslinger does go first casters tend not to rely on AC for defence, expect to be dealing with invisibility, long range, mirror image, displacement etc.
Once an alchemist gets fast bombs, they're walking all over a wizard.
An alchemist gets fast bombs at 8. By that time wizards are throwing around charm monster, black tentacles, confusion etc. As far as party composition goes I will take those options over an alchemist throwing bombs.
Vrog Skyreaver |
That might be useful for pvp games but in an actual game most enemies will have fortitude as their best save. Also few bards make charisma their primary stat as they simply don't have enough spell slots to make it worth it meaning your DC's will be subpar.
most of the bards I have seen are CHA focused to the detriment of other stats. YMMV of course.
That is far from certain. Any caster able to have a familiar will be getting an extra +4 closing the gap between their dex stats. Both will be picking improved initiative and probably reactionary. Dex is often a casters second stat so the dice roll almost certainly matters. Even if the gunslinger does go first casters tend not to rely on AC for defence, expect to be dealing with invisibility, long range, mirror image, displacement etc.
in my practical experience both playing (in a home game) and GMing gunslingers, casters rarely get any of the defensive spells cast unless they are on the defensive. Long range is not an issue either. miss chances could be an issue, if seeking on ranged weapons weren't a thing. all of this is not even mentioning multiclassing inquisitor for two levels to get wis to init, or multiclassing monk for 2 levels to get evasion.
An alchemist gets fast bombs at 8. By that time wizards are throwing around charm monster, black tentacles, confusion etc. As far as party composition goes I will take those options over an alchemist throwing bombs.
an alchemist can pass out most of those options via bombs and extracts. also, the alchemist laughs at the SR that the caster has to put resources into (feats, traits, items or picking a race). additionally, alchemists can throw bombs that dispel magic as part of their routine, or throw confusion bombs (which used to not get a save) or throw bombs that deal wisdom damage: or all of the above.
But to get things back on track, the arcanist is a good class, and a decent choice if you want to play an arcane caster (I would recommend playing a wizard to start with if you've never played a caster before). They kinda do get the best of both of their classes, and their arcane exploits offer something for everyone.
I think they're fairly versatile (which is good) and can do neat things (which is better).
notabot |
Have you seen the thundercaller? at level 7, I can drop 2 soundbursts a round, that deal 3d8 each.
most full casters will lose in init to a gunslinger, who will then shoot the heck outta them.
Once an alchemist gets fast bombs, they're walking all over a wizard.
and a witch can either have hexes (which are they're own brand of OP), or the ability to grapple at 10+ feet, using their primary ability score (int).
Out of curiousity what initiative are your gunslingers at? The casters I DM for tend to start the game with +8 and go up from there. I have a divination wizard that I'm DMing Mummies Mask for that is going to have crazy high initiative.
Gunslingers have range issues, if they want to use longer ranges for their touch attacks they are going to get hurt by grit use. Their ranged attacks are also trivial for a caster to deal with (tons of hard counters to ranged combat).
Alchemists have short range on their bombs, they can't even fight with them at the ranges a mage will engage at.
Witches are terrible grapplers. Their BAB doesn't scale well and their gimmick is a terrible use of the class. Yes hexes are really powerful but its just a save or suck or save or die that is limited on individual targets. Fail to make that slumber stick? Tough luck. Fail to coup de grace the slumbered target because target was woken up by an ally? Tough luck. Also the range on them barring some scar hex abuse is often pretty short, also known as charge range for many builds. Witches are a great class but the reason cited don't make them any more OP than established casters.
As for the Bard, meh, they have better things to do than be a primary save or suck spellcaster. Its a waste of the class if you go full caster monkey IMHO. Its also not anything special, a full caster can do similar things with a quickened spell (either the feat or the rod). Sure the bard can do that particular trick at a rather low level, but going further they fall behind full casters.
Don't cherry pick specific build sweet spots if you are comparing classes. Heck by this sort of logic barbarians are OP because they deal 2d6+12 damage at first level and can have over 20 HP (12 from HD, 6 from tribal scars, 4+ from constitution).
andreww |
in my practical experience both playing (in a home game) and GMing gunslingers, casters rarely get any of the defensive spells cast unless they are on the defensive. Long range is not an issue either. miss chances could be an issue, if seeking on ranged weapons weren't a thing. all of this is not even mentioning multiclassing inquisitor for two levels to get wis to init, or multiclassing monk for 2 levels to get evasion.
Most defensive spells last long enough that they don't need to be cast in battle. Mirror Image is a minute per level, easy to use when entering a location.
an alchemist can pass out most of those options via bombs and extracts. also, the alchemist laughs at the SR that the caster has to put resources into (feats, traits, items or picking a race). additionally, alchemists can throw bombs that dispel magic as part of their routine, or throw confusion bombs (which used to not get a save) or throw bombs that deal wisdom damage: or all of the above.
You realise that some of the best options around for the wizard, arcanist or sorcerer entirely ignore SR. Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, Aqueous Orb, Black Tentacles, all of them can potentially destroy entire encounters and entirely ignore SR and that is before we even begin to touch summoning. The alchemist is a decent class but it doesn't begin to compare to what a well played full caster is capable of.
Vrog Skyreaver |
@notabot: most of the gunslingers I have seen have been MCed with either monk or inquisitor. those MCed with inquisitor have double digit init mods minimum. those MCed with monk have high ACs.
@andreww: in my experience, minute per level spells end up being combat duration spells, since most of the time, they won't last to the next encounter. even then, mirror image is not very good against gunslingers, and worthless against alchemists. invisibility is better against gunslingers, but effectively worthless against alchemists due to splash damage.
I would hardly call glitterdust and stinking cloud among the best options at their levels. Glitterdust as an offensive spell is not as good an option as scorching ray, darkness, frigid touch, or web (although web is arguable, the reason I give it the nod is that it counts as difficult terrain).
stinking cloud is 3rd level, and there are quite a few better offensive spells than it: fireball/lightning bolt, haste, force punch, and slow are just the tip of the awesome offensive shenanigans. Stinking cloud is good, but it oft times just ends up screwing your party as much as the badguys, it only works on living targets, and anything immune to poison is right out.
Aqueous orb is kinda meh in my opinion. giving up your mobility to move it seems less than advantageous, especially when fending off multiple bombs in a round.
I'm not saying that wizards aren't a good class, but Alchemists out damage them, can heal and provide support (either themselves or others with 1-2 different discoveries), have highly superior class features, and don't have any abilities they don't want to have. Oh, and an alchemist makes more money than a wizard does in society, too...
AndIMustMask |
AndIMustMask wrote:the witch's HD uncapped autokill (sleep+coup de grace) that can be used all day every day (with lots of built-in ways for the class to make that save super easy to fail) disagrees with you.Which ways would those be? Last time I checked you couldn't apply spell focus to increase the DC or persistent spell to force two saves or spell perfection to double the bonus of spell focus and add a free metamagic feat to it. You might force two saves with a different hex or be using ill omen but not much matches the power of spell perfection. I will take a wizard or sorcerer any day of the week over the witch given their rather sub par spell list.
misfortune hex and/or ill omen spell, slumber hex. watch as they fail at LEAST one of those rolls, then take out your trusty scythe and murder them in their sleep.
depending on the DM, you can also apply the ability focus feat to increase the slumber DC by +2.
notabot |
While damage has value, in many encounters damage is one of the least important aspects compared to just shutting down enemies. Alchemists have tricks for that too, like tanglefoot bomb (tonight the party alchemist learned the value of such nasty effects the fun way, by nailing a CR=APL+1 encounter to the floor. But in general the wizard/arcanist/full caster is going be better at controlling effects. Damage is largely arbitrary when you are talking casters,though you can specialize in blasts if you really want to and be quite good at it, it actually makes for a weaker overall caster if you are going for straight damage.
Oh, did you not know that wizards can heal? Summon spells and infernal healing. Also the wizard support has superior ranges and can do some pretty good damage if it wants to. Dazing fireballs with bonus damage per dice intensified to 15d6 is pretty decent.
setup hex + slumber hex is pretty powerful, but it doesn't work on plenty of enemies. You have to know what you are fighting, the correct SoD hex available, and have to have the enemy fail some saves. Its balanced esp since its not particularly hard for enemies to get out of trouble as long as it isn't solo monster encounters.
In general I find alchemist to be a powerful class, but its options aren't on the same tier as wizards, they give up a bit too much to be skill and damage characters. Hell, a wizard giving up some options to be amazing at damage still makes for a formidable character at its normal role of caster support/control. I play both an prefer the alchemist, but I don't hold any illusions on which one is ultimately more powerful.