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Hi.
I like to know how good the pregenerated chars are.
Can I recommend them to the players starting with the pathfinder society or should I take the time and efford and help them to their own character generation?
I guess most of my players wouldn't have ever played pathfinder before or would be very insecure in creating their own characters.
Is the build of the pregens one that a player would normally choose?
How are your experiences with these?
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Some pregens are better than others. Personally, I find it *very* valuable to help new players build a character. Host a Beginner Box Bash, or open up your PFS location an hour early to help the new players put together new characters. Pregens are alright, but they don't compare to the joy of running (and roleplaying!) your own character.
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If you are talking about truly brand-new characters, don't burden them with lots of rules. Grab a few pregens and let them learn the rules as they go. The pregens are fine, IMO, but many will tell you they suck. That is largely based on a optimizing perspective, but you can have a fulfilling and fun game using the pregens.
Once the players are comfortable with how the game works, how combat is resolved, how to role-play, then they will be more comfortable with generating a character that will meet their interests.
Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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Hi.
I like to know how good the pregenerated chars are......
The Pre gens are OK. Not inspired characters of Shakespearian depth nor optimised killing machines but nothing much wrong with them either .
In practice I have started plenty of new players with them. We also encourage people to bring their own and even offer a character building service from one of our experienced players loves creating new PCs.
As I understand it is OK for a player to play an "official" pregen in her first ever session and then go home and apply the chronicle to her own home made character. Either that or continue to use e.g. Merisiel under another name and build her up that way.
I have read more criticism of the lvl 4 and 7 versions than the level 1 and though I personally think that Ezren's choices of spells are a little uninspired I have seen him save the day in multiple Master of the Fallen a fortress's.
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Thank you all for your answers.
I think it might be not very good if in a basic group there are two characters that are exactly the same.
But I am not sure if building a real caracter would be the right thing to do.
I have done it with new players for my Carrion Crown campaign and it lastet about four to six hours.
I am not sure if that is exciting enough for new players to come back the next session.
Probably choosing to create characters from the beginners box is an alternative because with three races and four classes they have at least twelve options.
It seem to be real fast and much better than the pregenerated chars.
Am I right about it?
Any other suggestions?
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Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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The thing about new PFRPG players creating a new PC is that to make one that is both better than a pregen and understood by the new player is rather time &/or labour intensive!
You ideally need one experienced player with each newbie to walk them through the process and even then it will probably mean creating a character at a pace faster than the experienced player would normally move at despite spending much of the time interacting with the new guy! If you are have more newbies than older hands to help then the process takes even longer. Leaving newbies twidling their thumbs while others are being attended to! To be honest I reckon having character generation competing with actual play should be minimised.
If your group has unlimited time and patience to do all of this before kick off on game day then it does no harm. Not sure that happy situation happens all the time.
If it was the case that players could not take their chronicle home and in the space between sessions 1 & 2 make a "real" character for the chronicle to apply to I might feel less comfortable about using Valeros & co. Offical Pre Gens also avoid the case that the new player is stuck applying chron #1 to a character created before the game that the player does not end up liking. We had a fella opt for an home made pregen Holy Hunter only to find out that actually the role playing aspect to paladins just doesn't suit him at all.
I appreciate that you might end up with two people wanting the same pregen but between the 4 original ps and the new Ninja, Gunslinger and Samurai there should be enough choice for game 1. And then time to make ones own PC later on.
W
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The problem with making new players a "better" first character, is that they may not know the rules to make their optimized character work in practice. The pregens have basic feats, abilities, etc that won't overwhelm the new player. Sure, you can make a better rogue than Merisiei, but that's because you know all the rules. Newbies won't.
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The problem with making new players a "better" first character, is that they may not know the rules to make their optimized character work in practice. The pregens have basic feats, abilities, etc that won't overwhelm the new player. Sure, you can make a better rogue than Merisiei, but that's because you know all the rules. Newbies won't.
It's not hard to make a fighter who's both better and easier to play than Valeros.
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I think the pregens are a lot better than they were before, and definitely playable. They're not "optimized", but they don't need to be to play PFS.
I agree about Valeros, one of my players still has a hard time with when he can make 1 attack or 2 attacks. Sigh.
I find the pregens are extremely useful and I've introduced several people who have never roleplayed before, with them. If I had to make a PC with them, it can take a long time, sometimes as long as 1-2 hours. Most of the time, I don't have the time.
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Acttually, the one major place a "self-made" PC would shine over any pregen or quick start PC would be in the player's knowledge about the PC.
If you actually made a TWF, you would have a better understanding of the TWF rules than if you just played a TWF someone else created.
Of course, that is assuming that you are being helped through the PC creation, not just being moved through the process. Educated and guided, not pushed through, if you know what I mean.
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Pregens are extremely suboptimal and weak as a whole. It's best to help new players build characters, and it doesn't take long at all before someone becomes proficient enough in the system to exceed the pregens.
If you mean by suboptimal and weak, that they aren't uber-optimized, then you are correct. Otherwise, they are completely playable and quite balanced for a good play experience.
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Are you guys only talking about the "official" pregens or pregens uhh in general? If in general did you see the ones on d20pfsrd.com? If the official ones then nevermind :)
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Pregens are extremely suboptimal and weak as a whole. It's best to help new players build characters, and it doesn't take long at all before someone becomes proficient enough in the system to exceed the pregens.If you mean by suboptimal and weak, that they aren't uber-optimized, then you are correct. Otherwise, they are completely playable and quite balanced for a good play experience.
Hmm... I guess on closer inspection of the ones for PFS, they seem better than I remembered. I might be thinking of the ones in the older AP volumes; those were shameful at times. Kyra, Ezren, and Merisiel actually do look quite decent, although I still object to a lot of the choices with Valeros.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Before you go saying that Ezren is quite decent, take a look at 7th-level Ezern's spellbook. Remember, his bonded object allows him to cast any of the myriad emergency spells in those pages once a day. Imagine how many spells a 7th-level wizard might have access to, since versatility is the Wizard's forte.
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Before you go saying that Ezren is quite decent, take a look at 7th-level Ezern's spellbook. Remember, his bonded object allows him to cast any of the myriad emergency spells in those pages once a day. Imagine how many spells a 7th-level wizard might have access to, since versatility is the Wizard's forte.
In fact, if I recall correctly, Ezren's spellbook is illegally small unless his spellbook got destroyed at some point, since it didn't include even enough spells to account for the ones he automatically gains every level.
I think the pregen Kyra is just great for a pregen cleric and everything I would want for it, though it would be nice if she either grabbed a light shield or else at least took her two-handing damage on the scimitar when attacking with it.
Ezren has the issues you mentioned, as well as the unfortunate fact that Pathfinder made the Universalist wizard even weaker than previous editions (by virtue of allowing other wizards to cast from their restricted schools by spending two slots) at least until level 8, perhaps, as the class ability at 8 is pretty good. Unfortunately, the pregens don't go to 8, so Ezren, since he always prepares evocation spells anyway thanks to his spellbook, would be better off by a good bit as an evoker.
Valeros and Merisiel are quite servicable run-of-the-mill builds of the pictures of those two iconics in the core rulebook. Merisiel does just fine at her skills. In combat, if Merisiel had some sort of Two-Weapon-Fighting, honestly she'd do just fine there too. Unfortunately, she doesn't, as the Merisiel in the picture doesnt.
Valeros is a two-weapon fighting fighter who has two non-paired weapons. His real downfall is the stat requirement on TWF, but at least with the new 20 point buy for PFS, he's leaps and bounds better than he was at 15 point buy elite array.
In our group, we recommend that all players who need to use a pregen play Kyra, even if there are several of them. Kyra can hold the line as well as, if not better than, Valeros, and the support granted by her spells is not to be sniffed at, particularly considering she comes with a shiny CLW wand at level 4 and up, allowing you 50 charges of goodness for the session at no cost. Even the most hardened optimizers can't complain too much.
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I think the 1st-level pregens are fine for new players. They're really only pregens for their first game, after that the player makes their own skill, feat, weapon, spell choices, and breathes their own life into them.
Also, be careful to remind players of the Gunslinger, Ninja, Samurai pregens that they will be required to bring Ultimate Combat with them to the table.
The Beginner Box rules are a lot easier for players to get into and follow, and the Bash! demos give them brief adventures to test-drive their characters. When I GMed the Beginner Box Bash! I noticed that players would swap the pregens among themselves between the four demos, and experiment by swapping out the Cleric's god, or building a Barbarian using the Beginner Box Players Pack - they worked out for themselves what classes they enjoyed or what options worked for them - so this might give you what you're looking for, assisting new players with their character choices before an actual PFS game.
Kyra and the alchemist are useful additions to a party. The other ones are a bit "meh", in my opinion. The cavalier would be all right if there were more scenarios where you could actually use a horse.
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Most of the issues described above are based on the 4th and 7th level versions of the pregens. IMO, the 1st level versions are balanced and offer an excellent foundation to teach new players. Valeros is probably the most complicated, but after a couple of combat encounters, the player should have a handle on the differences between fighting with one vs. two weapons.
The Beginner Box is the way to go if you have the opportunity. Not only are some of the more complicated rules (combat maneuvers, attacks of opportunity) stripped away, but the character sheets have notes in the margin with tips for new players. Don't worry about chronicles, rewards, etc. for this first session. Your focus is teaching them the basics of game-play. Don't forget the web enhancements because it adds barbarian to the four base classes. This would be important if you have more than four players.
Once they have completed an entire session, they should understand the basics of combat, movement, skills, etc. Move on to the First Steps series. It has a good mix of combat and role-playing and it will serve as a good introduction to both the more advanced tactics (above) as well as the nuances of PFS (factions, missions, chronicles, etc). If they want to move on to a different character class, they can do so after First Steps I.
My advice would be not to worry about all the optimization talk. That can come later. Focus on the game-play so they know what do do. They can learn better ways to do it as time goes on.
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Before you go saying that Ezren is quite decent, take a look at 7th-level Ezern's spellbook. Remember, his bonded object allows him to cast any of the myriad emergency spells in those pages once a day. Imagine how many spells a 7th-level wizard might have access to, since versatility is the Wizard's forte.
To be honest, I only looked at the first level versions. Who's still playing pregens by 7th? By then, I assume that any new players would have made their own characters. They wouldn't exactly be new players anymore.
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Before you go saying that Ezren is quite decent, take a look at 7th-level Ezern's spellbook. Remember, his bonded object allows him to cast any of the myriad emergency spells in those pages once a day. Imagine how many spells a 7th-level wizard might have access to, since versatility is the Wizard's forte.To be honest, I only looked at the first level versions. Who's still playing pregens by 7th? By then, I assume that any new players would have made their own characters. They wouldn't exactly be new players anymore.
What about the situation of a new player showing up to a game where everyone's ready to play a 7th level scenario? Should he just go home?
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What about the situation of a new player showing up to a game where everyone's ready to play a 7th level scenario? Should he just go home?Before you go saying that Ezren is quite decent, take a look at 7th-level Ezern's spellbook. Remember, his bonded object allows him to cast any of the myriad emergency spells in those pages once a day. Imagine how many spells a 7th-level wizard might have access to, since versatility is the Wizard's forte.To be honest, I only looked at the first level versions. Who's still playing pregens by 7th? By then, I assume that any new players would have made their own characters. They wouldn't exactly be new players anymore.
That didn't really occur to me; in Denver where I play, we sign up for games in advance and 1st level tables are almost always available.
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What about the situation of a new player showing up to a game where everyone's ready to play a 7th level scenario? Should he just go home?Before you go saying that Ezren is quite decent, take a look at 7th-level Ezern's spellbook. Remember, his bonded object allows him to cast any of the myriad emergency spells in those pages once a day. Imagine how many spells a 7th-level wizard might have access to, since versatility is the Wizard's forte.To be honest, I only looked at the first level versions. Who's still playing pregens by 7th? By then, I assume that any new players would have made their own characters. They wouldn't exactly be new players anymore.
I see this mostly at conventions, most local groups who have 7th level tables also have a lower tier table as well and it's far more appropriate for them to run a 1st level character. (It's probably better for folks to play 1st level pregens at conventions also but that's a different discussion)
I've played all of the pregens at several levels and they aren't amazing, but they do ok. The biggest problem I see is that it's difficult for players to pick up a 7th level character they aren't familiar with and be effective with a bunch of unfamiliar abilities. I think that's why the Damiel and Kyra do so well, they have fairly straight forward abilities which are easy to grasp and be good with. Valeros is tricky because he has the whole two weapon thing going on which is confusing if you don't do it a lot.
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The pregens have issues. There are some mistakes in them mechanically, not to mention not the best choices in the builds, spell selection or item purchases, etc.
Are you referring to the 1st level versions as I was? I am unaware of any mistakes since they were updated. A build choice is exactly that, a choice. It is bad form, IMO, to tell someone that their choice of build is poor. Not everyone plays the same.
The pregens are based on the iconics from the books. The higher level versions are not meant to be optimized. They follow the theme of the iconic's development. They are meant to be a stopgap when you absolutely must use them. We really don't want them used because there are better options. There really is nothing wrong with the 1st level pregens with respect to new players.
IMO, it is up to the organizer to make low-level play available for new players. A brand new player's first experience with PFS or PFRPG for that matter should not be with a level 7 pregen. This might mean having your advertising list that the event is not open to new players if the only thing you are offering is a 7-11 scenario. That's not such a terrible thing as long as you have clearly indicated options for the player to join other events.
In my experience, most new players join through one of three avenues. (1) They saw it listed at the FLGS. If you indicate which events accept new players and which are designated for higher-level play, they won't show up to the "wrong" one. (2) They saw it online somewhere. Again, resolved as #1. (3) Word of mouth of players. You might have less control over this one, but you can still influence your players so they know which events are good for n00bs and which ones aren't. Thus lessening/eliminating the need for higher level pregens.
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James, feel free to email me suggestions for all pregens of all three levels. Also, please include examples that you have observed of how these problems have affected new players when using them during games. Three to five examples for each pregen at each of the 1, 4, and 7 level should give me enough to look at, at least initially. Once I have your reports, I will respond with any further questions I might have.
If you can focus on Seasons 2 and 3, that would be appreciated, since we have seen more play from newer players of those Seasons scenarios than we have of Season 1. Please refrain from using examples that took place in Season 0 since those scenarios are based on the 3.5 rules system and i want to make sure our pregens are balanced and functional against scenarios written utilizing the Pathfinder RPG. Finally, I would like to focus on more recent events since these are the events that use the newest versions of the pregens. Reporting on problems of earlier pregens, while interesting, serves little purpose since the pregens were changed and rereleased.
In your reports, please detail the circumstances revolving around the problems with the pregens, to include how many players at the table, the name of the event (and if you have an event number that would be even more helpful), what type of event this was (home game, store gameday, convention, etc), if the player was a new or veteran player, etc... The more detail I have, the more I can focus on changes that should be looked at with a critical eye.
The only way I can make improvements to anything in Pathfinder Society is to know both theoretical and actual problems (in play) with the pregens. Thanks in advance for any assistance to help me fix what appears to be one of the big problems in Pathfinder Society currently.
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Personally, I have no problem with the pregens. I prefer helping new players create their own character, because it is easier for players to roleplay something they made, and I dont know how the various pregens are meant to be roleplayed.
Also, I appreciated that post, Grandmaster Brock. Serious response to a rather spurious issue.