I'm running a campaign where one of my players used a teleport spell to put an ogre into a 5 foot cage. My worry is that if I continue to allow a large creature to be stuffed into a 5 foot box, much of the encounters I have are nerfed as the creatures are only allowed a will save (Baleful transposition).
No, as far as I know a creature can only be squeezed in one direction. E.g. a large ogre could fit in a 5'x10' box, but not a 5'x5' box.
A creature can only be squeezed into a space of half its size to its full size. So a large creature would need at least 2 squares. He could fit into a 5' square but he would need to force himself in with an Escape Artist check and...at least a minute of work, if I recall correctly.
I thought he was using baleful transposition from 3.5; not teleport. Unless I'm misleading the opening post.
A creature's space is the space they need to fight effectively, not the actual space they take up. Squeeze rules, same thing - it's the space they can still fight at a penalty, not the space they physically occupy (unless it's a specific exception, like they mention, a gelatinous cube for example). Smaller than that, it'd be like you'd think - the thing is so constrained that it's more like they're bound up. In this case, you got to read the height and weight info they give in the monster description and just make a best judgment if they can actually fit in the cage or not.
That doesn't really impact your problem though, since the guy can just get a number of cages of whatever appropriate size you end up saying it is. Isn't Baleful Transposition some 3.5 thing from the miniatures handbook or something? Is it even in Pathfinder? (If not, I think you just found out why) I also read the 3.5 spell you need to be connected by something and have other restrictions.
Isn't Baleful Transposition some 3.5 thing from the miniatures handbook or something? Is it even in Pathfinder? (If not, I think you just found out why) I also read the 3.5 spell you need to be connected by something and have other restrictions.
It doesn't really matter what the spell is; it's still an interesting question. You could ask the same thing about Teleportation Circle, for instance.
A creature's space is the space they need to fight effectively, not the actual space they take up. Squeeze rules, same thing - it's the space they can still fight at a penalty, not the space they physically occupy (unless it's a specific exception, like they mention, a gelatinous cube for example). Smaller than that, it'd be like you'd think - the thing is so constrained that it's more like they're bound up. In this case, you got to read the height and weight info they give in the monster description and just make a best judgment if they can actually fit in the cage or not.
Under the squeezing rules it says that if you try to fit into a space that is smaller than half your size you must make a DC 30 Escape Artist check for fitting into a tight space, if I'm not mistaken. Your space is how large of a space you need to fight effectively (without penalty). However smaller than half of that an you have an extremely hard time even fitting, hence the check. While I'm all for best judgement there does seem to be an indication that the room that your character actually takes up is roughly half of your space needed to fight.
That doesn't really impact your problem though, since the guy can just get a number of cages of whatever appropriate size you end up saying it is. Isn't Baleful Transposition some 3.5 thing from the miniatures handbook or something? Is it even in Pathfinder? (If not, I think you just found out why) I also read the 3.5 spell you need to be connected by something and have other restrictions.
Spell Compendium and Miniature Handbook both, I believe. It isn't PF unless it was recently added, but PF was designed to be compatible with 3.5 material. After all PF is little more than a large collection of 3.5 houserules.
It doesn't really matter what the spell is; it's still an interesting question. You could ask the same thing about Teleportation Circle, for instance.
I think that my call would be that the creature being transported would be shifted to the nearest area that would allow them to be in a normal position.
There is nothing the spell's description that allows for the transportees to be re-oriented or their position changed, so they would likely arrive standing up, which would be higher than the 5' for a large creature. Hence, the shift and damage from the shift.
And no, Pathfinder is more than just a set of houserules for 3.5. It's a game with common ancestry, but a game very much all it's own.
Our CRBs must be different.
Just to clarify, the spell (Baleful Transposition) is in the 3.5 Miniature Handbook. I think having the creature arrive at the nearest space makes a lot of sense. The spell would have to be more powerful to be able to force a creature into a space smaller than it would normally occupy.
The party spent a lot of time coming up with this idea. They crafted the 5' cages and then rounded up squirrels. They then put the squirrels in the cages and then invoked the spell. It was very creative, not to mention amusing, which is why I allowed it. However I don't want it to become a frequent tactic.
Now were they to build 10' cages...
Anyway, thanks for the advice, this definitely helps.
Under the squeezing rules it says that if you try to fit into a space that is smaller than half your size you must make a DC 30 Escape Artist check for fitting into a tight space, if I'm not mistaken. Your space is how large of a space you need to fight effectively (without penalty). However smaller than half of that an you have an extremely hard time even fitting, hence the check. While I'm all for best judgement there does seem to be an indication that the room that your character actually takes up is roughly half of your space needed to fight.
That point actually proves mine, there. If the space you actually take up was half your size, you couldn't have the option of squeezing smaller at all, as you'd have reached your limit. You get a check to fit a smaller space because you can fit a smaller space. The check itself is also about voluntary movement and not getting stuck. That's limited by flexibility and skill. That's different than getting involuntarily crammed in to a box. That's just limited by physical volume. For worming though an opening using escape artist, that's limited by the size of your skull. Escape artist doesn't say what the limit is for a whole body crammed in a small space. You just have to eyeball it.
Also, while it's true Pathfinder is meant to be compatable with 3.5, there's a lot of not very balanced or well written stuff in 3.5 that's not good to try to port to Pathfinder. Pathfinder is it's own game, and 3.5 stuff should be considered equivelent to 3rd party Pathfinder compatable stuff. Not official, use at your own risk.
Under the squeezing rules it says that if you try to fit into a space that is smaller than half your size you must make a DC 30 Escape Artist check for fitting into a tight space, if I'm not mistaken. Your space is how large of a space you need to fight effectively (without penalty). However smaller than half of that an you have an extremely hard time even fitting, hence the check. While I'm all for best judgement there does seem to be an indication that the room that your character actually takes up is roughly half of your space needed to fight.That point actually proves mine, there. If the space you actually take up was half your size, you couldn't have the option of squeezing smaller at all, as you'd have reached your limit. You get a check to fit a smaller space because you can fit a smaller space. The check itself is also about voluntary movement and not getting stuck. That's limited by flexibility and skill. That's different than getting involuntarily crammed in to a box. That's just limited by physical volume. For worming though an opening using escape artist, that's limited by the size of your skull. Escape artist doesn't say what the limit is for a whole body crammed in a small space. You just have to eyeball it.
(Emphasis mine)
This defense is predicated on spells with the "teleportation" descriptor rearranging the position of your body as well as transporting it to a different point in space which it doesn't say it does and with spells we generally have to assume the unless a spell states that it does something, it doesn't. A ogre standing normally should be able to fit into a space of half its size, but wouldn't fit into a space smaller than that without some awkward positioning of his limbs and some constriction.
Eyeballing it and GM adjucation will likely be the solution, but will vary from table to table. A better solution is to simply get larger cages to avoid the hornet's nest all together.
Just to clarify, the spell (Baleful Transposition) is in the 3.5 Miniature Handbook. I think having the creature arrive at the nearest space makes a lot of sense. The spell would have to be more powerful to be able to force a creature into a space smaller than it would normally occupy.
Enlarge person is a 1st level spell meant to be used in just that way. You could just port that rule to this case, since it's pretty analiogus, and on point:
If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it—the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.
So, if he can physically fit at all, give the troll his stength check to burst the cage. I'd just dissallow the spell, though.
This defense is predicated on spells with the "teleportation" descriptor rearranging the position of your body as well as transporting it to a different point in space which it doesn't say it does and with spells we generally have to assume the unless a spell states that it does something, it doesn't. A ogre standing normally should be able to fit into a space of half its size, but wouldn't fit into a space smaller than that without some awkward positioning of his limbs and some constriction.
Ok I see! - Confusion was, I'd consider it a matter of chance if the oger happened to be occupying a smaller space than his normal size - could be he's maybe he's all curled up about to lunge, but even standing with arms to his sides he's already taller than a square, and if he has his arms extended in an en garde position he's be filling at lease some of his whole space with some of his body. So when you were talking about half space, that'd already imply the magic might put the oger in an appropriate position in the desination area. So I thought that's want you had in mind. There's an argument for this - Same way teleportation spells like dimension door shunt the whole body to an available space, the magic could push an extended limb in so it doesn't appear in the nearby wall.
But I like the displacement resolution better, though! It's even easier since then you realy should have the cage be the creatures size, and not fiddle with squeezing at all. Just shunt the creature if the cage is smaller, per dimention door, and the general rule on accidentally ending up in an illegal space.
So when you were talking about half space, that'd already imply the magic might put the oger in an appropriate position in the desination area.
Precisely my thoughts.
But I like the displacement resolution better, though! It's even easier since then you realy should have the cage be the creatures size, and not fiddle with squeezing at all. Just shunt the creature if the cage is smaller, per dimention door, and the general rule on accidentally ending up in an illegal space.
That is probably what I would end up going with as well.
Can a large creature fit in a 5' box? Depends. An 8 foot tall tall creature is Large sized, but so is a 16 foot tall creature. Both are Large creatures, but the 8 foot tall creature should have little problem fitting in a 5' box. The 16' creature probably won't fit.
(I can't find the size chart in Pathfinder, but this is it for 3.5).