I'm putting together a Zen Archer, and one thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread at all is the feasibility of an Aasimar compared to humans / dwarves. Sure they give up the human bonus feat, but they gain some extra stats, dark vision, resistances, skill modifiers, and a spell-like ability...
Note that Asimars also give up the +1 skill/ level that humans get. But it sounds like a great trade what with all the goodies you point out. I'm with you, and I'd love to know if and where I'm wrong.
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The more I look at it, the more I feel that all I'd be giving up is the ability to be targeted by stuff like Enlarge Person and the 1st level bonus feat in exchange for quite a few goodies. But I'm not sure that I'm not missing something here.
You could take Scion of Humanity and count as human for spells or anything else that has human as a prerequisite.
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Enlarge person is better for a WIS based archer than a DEX based archer though.
Personally I think Aasimar is a fine choice. Really, the best thing about Zen Archer is that you don't need the Hunan bonus feat so you can play any race and be awesome.
I'm considering an Aasimar ZAM fir Shattered Star (if we play it) for the Darkvision. That or half-Orc with Acute Darkvision racial trait. Combine Darkvision with Wisdom in the Flesh (Stealth) and you have pretty nice scout for a dungeon crawl.
My current ZAM is now 10th level and I went Snake Style. It was awesome early on and saved my bacon a few times. But I haven't used the ability to negate an attack for a few sessions now... So other than the insane Sense Motive score that has lots of out of combat use I have to downgrade my opinion of the Snake Style build just a little bit.
I agree, don't think Zen Archer qualifies for Vows. They do not have Still Mind to begin with. Can't replace something you never had...porpentine,
How are you taking the vows?
"The ability to take these vows replaces the still mind class feature, even if the monk abandons all his vows." Ultimate Magic (page 50).
As a Zen Archer, Point Blank Master replaces still mind. Doesn't this mean that Zen Archers cannot take vows?
Was this ever clarified?
Was this ever clarified?I agree, don't think Zen Archer qualifies for Vows. They do not have Still Mind to begin with. Can't replace something you never had...porpentine,
How are you taking the vows?
"The ability to take these vows replaces the still mind class feature, even if the monk abandons all his vows." Ultimate Magic (page 50).
As a Zen Archer, Point Blank Master replaces still mind. Doesn't this mean that Zen Archers cannot take vows?
Found out that while you can take the Qinggong Monk Archetype as a Zen Archer you definitely can not take vows.
From the Ultimate Magic FAQ
Monk: Can a qinggong monk take a second archetype if the character doesn't swap out abilities the second archetype requires?
Yes. However, the other archetype takes priority over the various abilities granted at each level, and the character can't delay taking an ability that the other archetype replaces—he must allow the second archetype to replace the standard ability at the standard class level.
From Monk Vows.
The ability to take these vows replaces the still mind class feature, even if the monk abandons all his vows.
From Zen Archer
Point Blank Master (Ex): At 3rd level, a zen archer gains Point Blank Master* as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. This ability replaces still mind.
So Point Blank Master takes priority and replaces Still Mind. And that means you can't replace Still Mind with a Vow.
I am currently playing basically the exact PC that's being discussed right now, an Aasimar ZAM 4/Serene Barbarian 2/Tattooed Empyreal Sorcerer 1/Mythic Champion 1. I used the Archon-Blooded variant and started with stats of 14/14/14/14/17/7. I can't bring myself to dump INT either. I did use Scion of Humanity and gave up my SLA for a roll on the chart and got +2 Initiative. Serene Barbarian is a 3rd party variant that amounts to little more than an minimal archetype.
My DM allowed me to use a Greatbow (d10 damage), so with all my buffs on (Flurry, Point Blank Shot, Mythic Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus, Zen Archery, and magic bonuses) I'm +10/+10/+5 for 1d10+9 each. In Serenity (Serene Barbarian equivalent of Rage) +2 to hit. Gravity Bow increases damage from 1d10 to 2d8. Add Pheromone arrows and the Barbarian 2nd level Rage Power Scent, and pheromone marked targets are +2/+2. By spending 1 point of Ki I can add an additional shot at +10 and by spending a Mythic point (both swift actions) I can add an additional shot at +10 that ignores cover and concealment. So, the best I can do for any one full round action is +14/+14/+14/+14/+9 for 2d8+11 ignoring cover and concealment on the first shot with the option to roll twice and take the higher result for one shot (Perfect Strike). This is all prior to any buffs by other party members.
My AC right now is 18 naked which I can get to 28 by going into Serenity (+2 DEX/WIS), spending 1 point of Ki for Barkskin (+2), and casting Mage Armor (+4). I can spend another point of Ki to gain an additional +4 for one round bringing my AC to 32 naked, best case scenario. Aasimar lets me resist 5 cold/acid/elec and grants 60ft. darkvision as well. Serenity grants +2 to all saves and I have 14 rounds after taking the Extra Serenity (Rage) feat.
I used Wisdom in the Flesh with Disable Device making him a pseudo-skill monkey, and Magical Knack giving me +2 to my caster level. Tattooed Sorcerer gives me the Mage's Tattoo (Varisian Tattoo) feat which allows me to cast spells from the Conjuration school (chosen) at +1 CL which means my Mage Armor gets cast at CL4 lasting four hours and cast off my WIS score.
Speed, Jumping and Climbing: His speed is currently at 50 (+10 Barb, +10 Monk 3). The Monkey Style feat lets me add WIS to Acrobatics. My tattoo familiar is a monkey which also grants me bonuses to Acrobatics. My 1st tier Mythic path ability is Climbing Master which grants me a climb speed equal to my movement speed (50) and +8 to climb checks. This all makes my Acrobatics skill bonus +19 (Jump +27) and Climb +20. I can stand as a swift action (Monkey Style) on a roll of 1 with no risk of AoO. My next Mythic path ability will be impossible speed for +30 to speed and my next general feat will be Monkey Moves which will add my WIS to Climb allowing me to crawl at half speed and take a 5 ft. step by either jumping, crawling, or climbing. I will both move and climb at 80 (90 at ZAM 6) and can crawl at 40. I will be able to climb sheer faces and smooth walls on a DC40 which I could make with a good roll and auto-succeed with a take 20. At ZAM 5, by spending 1 point of Ki, I can add +20 to a jump check which also means that I will be able to standing long jump over 50ft on a d20 roll of 1. Spiderman?
All that to say that at this point with his CHA in the toilet, he is pretty much useless when he's not raining arrows on his enemies. The good thing is that the enemies usually don't last long (as long as I can roll the dice...). In order to make him a little more well rounded as an adventurer, I have given a lot of thought to giving him 1 level (maybe 2) of Infiltrator Inquisitor with the Conversion Inquisition which would grant him WIS to Intimidate and double WIS to Bluff, and Diplomacy. That would give him a total of 9 skill that use his highest stat, Wisdom and probably make him the party face. However, if I take it at the next level as I'm tempted, it would likely mean three levels in a row without an increase in BAB (Sorc 1, Inq 1, ZAM 5). I suppose it's arguable that he'll be OK without it in the short term. I'm not sure what I'd do at higher levels if he makes it to lvl 20. I haven't decided if I'd push him to ZAM 15 and take one more level of Inquisitor for the extra WIS buffs, or quit at ZAM 8 and push to Inquisitor 5 for Bane and then what? Prestige class? If I cross that bridge, I'm sure I'll be back to ask for advice.
If you are talking about One his feat progression is shown. He picks up Vital Strike at level 9 and has a BaB of +6 at that point.
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Would there be any point to having both Pommel Style and Clustered Shot on a Zen Archer?
Not sure what Pommel style is, but Clustered Shots is almost mandatory in my opinion... I've found that my ZAM hits with a metric tonne of arrows each round, but with no additional sources of static damage (like Favoured Enemy or Smite for example) the arrows don't do a lot of damage individually.
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Pummelling Style is in the Advance class guide. lets you put all of your attacks into 1 "punch". I think it would accomplish the same thing as luster shot as DR would only be applied once. The main difference is, while using pummelling style, if 1 arrow crits, every other arrow you hit with in the round would crit too.
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Pummelling Style is in the Advance class guide. lets you put all of your attacks into 1 "punch". I think it would accomplish the same thing as luster shot as DR would only be applied once. The main difference is, while using pummelling style, if 1 arrow crits, every other arrow you hit with in the round would crit too.
Pummeling Style is clearly intended to work with unarmed strikes and not archery.
I think it's safe to assume that this should only be applied to melee, and specifically to unarmed strikes. I doubt any DM would allow it to be used for ranged attacks, even though is says it can be used for Flurry. Clustered Shots basically does the same thing, so I guess the answer to your original question is likely no.
The flavor text clearly suggests that this is for melee and specifically for unarmed attacks. It says "you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch." Flurry of blows is an unarmed strike feature which has been adapted for use with the ZAM and should probably be renamed for use with ranged attacks, but has yet to be. I'm one to argue for quite a bit for my character and I wouldn't even think about arguing with my DM for this. I think most reasonable DMs would disallow it and simply tell you to take Clustered Shots instead.
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I don't have the ACG and have never read the feat so what I'm about to say next is going to be ignorant - but I'd fall on the same side of the fence as Imbaticus on this... Unless of course there were some language that implied Pummeling Style could be used with Ki Focus - because the Zen Archer does eventually get to treat his bow shots as ki strikes (17th level I believe).
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It says no where that it has to be melee only. It says it works with the flurry of blows feature, which with a Zen Archer is allowed to be done with bows. I don't see where you are misinterpreting it.
You used the word punch to describe how a style feat (as in, martial art style) works with a bow and arrow. I'm not misinterpreting anything, you're trying to bend the rule.
Nothing says melee only, but let's say it is unarmed strike only. You're saying close weapons for the brawler don't work with Pummeling Style?
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Nothing says melee only, but let's say it is unarmed strike only. You're saying close weapons for the brawler don't work with Pummeling Style?
They really shouldn't the way the feat is written now. Anything other than a x2 crit profile breaks the crit mechanics of the feat, especially if you are using two different weapons to combine a 17-20 range cestus and a x4 katar.
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Yes, you're reading Toughness correctly, and it's mostly useful at low levels. If you feel like it's not providing good value at high levels you could retrain.
You are correct that vows are unavailable since they replace Still Mind which the Zen Archer gives up for Point Blank Master. And you are also correct about Qinggong.
toughness = the HP that 1 con mod boost would give you. 10HP at lv 10 seems kinda small but when you compare HP.
8+5*9+10*con+FCB*10=73HP at con 12 and 83HP at con 14. Toughness would boost that to 93HP, a 12% increase I think?
So while it doesn't look like the most impressive feat, 10hp at lv10 is still usually MORE than 10% increase of HP for 1 feat. But it really comes down to how okay you are with your HP. if 60HP at lv10 is good for you then you only need con 12 and can take skills with your FCB. If you're wanting closer to 90 at lv10 then toughness is needed to reach that.
Toughness is a mechanically solid feat, if it's good for you is your choice.
PBS gives you +1 to attack and damage if in close range, it's also a pre req for feats, but you may not need it for that with the zen archer. It's WF and half of WS when it's on.
PBM lets you not provoke when you attack.
CR personally, is only good if you have a way to generate AoO or are using reach. Having CR with melee is only useful against archers that shoot a lot, or if people NEED to run past you and not around you.
The value of Point Blank Shot to a Zen Archer isn't because it is a 'feat tax' for Precise Shot (as it is for most other archers), but because the extra +1 to hit and damage within 30 ft. can actually be helpful on a 3/4 BAB character, especially one who may be more likely to be close to the frontlines than most archers (especially once you acquire Point Blank Master).
Edit: Ninja'd by ChessPwn (largely).
You can't flank with a ranged weapon per faq.
It's not a FAQ it's in the rules
When making a melee attack you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
here is the PDT saying no flanking with ranged.
Be careful with that FAQ though, just holding a bow doesn't mean you threaten
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.
Not a problem for a Monk, take off one hand from the bow as a free action at the end of your turn, threaten with unarmed strike off turn, re-grab the bow as a free action at the start of your next turn.
Not quite, the list of eligible attacks is not so infinitely broad.
Though your broader point is true as explicitly stated by core rules:
"a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full"
(normal) "Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is..."
"A monk's [UAS] attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet" (no headbutt mentioned)
So indeed the legions of Ooze Monks have an enduring grudge against the rules of the game...
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Being 2017 and almost 200 pages.... How legal is this build? Ive seen the vows are not legal so..is the build still good without those vows?
I am making my character soon and i know with out a doubt...i will be facing a tarrasque (upon killing it our party gains mythic tiers) we are using gestalt characters starting at level 10.
What other class to take for the gestalt process? I am not familiar with all the rules yet.
I have no clue about the Gesalt Characters, but Yes the build is still legal. There are no real issues with not having Vows as those only offer extra Ki Points. Properly built Zen Archer with the right gear has an answer for most every situation, especially post level 9 as you can finally have Clustered shot and be able to deal with that pesky DR/Slashing (Also DR/-)
The majority of the strength of Zen Archer builds are the combination of the high Wisdom an all the monk special abilities that are tied to Wisdom (increased AC/CMD/Special Attacks) and all the key Ranged combat feats fall on your lap as easily obtainable or hand picked and given freely. As a result you almost have to TRY to build a Zen Archer that will fail. Also the strengths are all integral parts of the monk Class and the base ranged combat feats, so it's a very stable build that doesn't get changed much over time.
The biggest pointer for the Terrasque fight is he uses Stunning Fist through the ranged Attacks heavily, to be able to do that, you need to be level 17. You have Stunning fist at BAB=+8 (level 11) but if you don't have the level 17 Ki Focus Bow ability you will only be able to use stunning fist with normal unarmed attacks. This spirals out of control quickly as unreliable since you are using Str for attack roll instead of wisdom, you don't get all the bow attack bonuses you normally would. So you are very likely to miss, since it's not a bow attack you can't try to perfect strike it. You also can't Flurry since you have an unarmed attack, so much fewer attacks per round, though you could still do unarmed strike (assuming it hits you've stunned the Terrasque which is the main goal, then do the rest of your attacks with the bow as normal, and you would still get a haste attack since that works without Flurry, you could also spend your ki point for unarmed dmg to bow attacks instead of extra attacks, so you would have fewer attacks but at least be hitting harder with them.
Ultimately if you're confident your party will be level 17 before facing the Terrasque it should be a walk in the park for you. If you are not, then a Zen archer is still a very strong build, and a viable option, but it may not be the 'best' option to take into that fight if that's what your trying to do. On the other end, you may make a character custom built for the Terrasque that gets murdered by something else before you even see the Terrasque. Where the Zen Archer is always a very balanced Character build and able to handle most anything, as I mentioned in the opening Paragraph...
There are multiple things that can help for gestalt, but you'll probably want wisdom based casting (at least 6/9) because there's only so much you can get from adding martial stuff.
Options would thus be:
Warpriest or Inquisitor - both very good for damage, although you will be swift action starved.
Cleric - especially good if you can prebuff, and has all the nice status remove stuff.
Wildblooded Sorcerer with Empyreal bloodline - you can never go wrong with a full arcane caster.
Mountain or Goliath Druid - Giant Form wildshape and pet.
Shaman - lots of options, but can end rather MAD, and the spell list is rather weak.
Dust Form or Sonic Form should make you immune against everything the Tarrasque can throw at you, by the way.
I'm not sure that Zen Archer is better than Sohei, though (especially with Warpriest), now that we have Wis to attack as a single feat.