First, Hi! I'm new to the forum. I have massive interest in this game because I've been designing it in my head for years and now I don't have to be the one to risk making it when I finish Uni (also I'll be able to play it without knowing too much =D). Market influenced game, aimed at the increasingly hungry target audience of people who are pissed off that WoW is just the same content, and with a setting that I recently came to love as I played my first Pathfinder game just before Christmas, after developing a deep, deep hate for D&D 4th Edition. So thank you, Goblinworks, feel free to continue using your mind-reading devices ^^
Anyway - I'd like to see what you guys think should specifically be avoided. What you definitely want the game NOT to be. (this can be based on gripes from other games or your own ideas. Market research is market research)
For me, this includes selling the company to EA, a lá Warhammer Online.
Also - I don't want to see every person in the game sitting in a main town on a dragon. I remember my first mount in World of Warcraft. How awesome I felt just sitting on my little skeleton horse, and how awesome other folks looked on their even faster 100% mounts with armour. It had a sense of "Wow, this game has so much more to offer." The only comparible feeling I get now is some of the ships in EVE, and I really want this feeling to be more commonplace. So please, Goblinworks - keep the cool things cool and don't make it so easy to get a damn dragon (or whatever mount equivalents you have in mind).
So what about you guys, anything you want the game to avoid?
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Hm... things to avoid, eh?
1) UI inconvenience. I know, it seems like a trifle, but when I look at World of Warcraft, then I look at The Old Republic, I look back at Guild Wars every time and think:
"Why do I need 30 different skills when I can have fun with 8?"
I could see having large UI options for spellcasting characters, but please... keep it simple. Perhaps "spells per day" translates to "maximum spells on ability bar".
2) Don't reinvent the wheel. Sure, a lot of people don't like the direction WoW took, or how it influenced the industry, but there are a LOT of things we can learn from other games, including what makes them enjoyable.
People who enjoy PvP can still enjoy a well made dungeon crawl (which, might I add, is an iconic Pathfinder experience), and PvE fans can enjoy PvP combat. Don't forget that you have 2 (well, there are WAY more, but those are the biggest) player bases to satisfy, and you can satisfy both without alienating them.
3) Don't let your amazing vision keep you from making a good game. Now, it's no secret that I'm not a big fan of the direction being taken with Pathfinder Online. I don't like lootable corpses, I don't like the idea of making people play crafters, and I HATE (all caps; this is serious) the idea of leveling up a character by clicking a skill and letting it "train" while I go do something else.
That said, I understand that the creators have a unique vision for what they would like the game to be. However, there are some aspects of video games as a whole that need to be considered. What kind of effect to cinematic sequences have on players? How do players feel when they die? What is it like to make a new character? How should a player feel every time they perform any action in the game, whether it be running, swimming, or fighting?
Now, trust me, I'm not a game designer, and I know it. However, I can't shake the feeling that, in an effort to create a unique game, Goblinworks is ignoring some of the things which make video games, as a whole, enjoyable experiences.
Anyways, that's all I can think of atm. I'm sure more will come to me. I'm also sure I'm TOTALLY biased by my views of the game, but maybe somebody will correct me.
Goblin Squad Member
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I don't like the idea of making people play crafters,Me? I am absolutely looking forward to playing a crafter. I have not come across a game yet where crafting actually matters and affected the world as a whole.
One thing I think also needs to be pointed out, nobody is going to be "forced" to play a crafter. Yes good gear, and possibly repairs will have to come from crafters. People who enjoy crafting will set up shop and do these tasks for others for a small fee. No one will be forced to play a crafter, and odds are there are more then enough people who want to be a crafter, to ensure no one who dosn't has to.
You should probably check out EVE then Mogloth ^^ Proof of how much it matters there was the games introduction to China, but you can research that yourself I'm sure ^^
Another thing I really don't want to see, and another pet-hate of World of Warcraft, is a gradual increase in the size of everything.
WoW players might know what I mean. At the start you're fighting small wolves and humans and by the end-game they've resorted to simply making these same creatures three times your characters height. Part of the reason of this I think is the art style, which led to too many "awesome" looking pieces of gear. Everyone had them, and it's the same as my complaint about mounts - it was difficult to make new awesome ones that stand out for bosses, faction leaders and such. Instead.... they made them unreasonably tall.
Major immersion breaker for me, I'd compare it to meeting the president and finding out that I'm only as tall as his shin.
So Goblinworks, do me a favour and avoid this ? :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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what not to do..
I don't want to see high-level players dressed up all in the same "tiered class gear". I don't mind if fighters prefer +5 mithril full plate, my problem is when all of those look exactly the same - and the more "unique" the artwork the worse it is. If I can tell the level of a wizard by the colour and design of his robe, i shall be mightily disappointed. (Hellknights are a different matter though).
Suggestions:
-Let crafters have some influence on the armor/robes/cloak models. Something as simple a racial models (dwarf-made plate looks different from man-made plate etc) could work well. Even better if special materials are required to customise looks, so that there are "run of the mill" and customised looks. Ideally I would want to see players seek out specific crafters to get unique looks and not just "uber gear".
-have a number of 'customisation slots' depending on quality and type? Crafters could then add cosmetic features limited by crafting skill.
-armor found as treasure: if everyone does the same quest to get the same drop and it shows, it breaks immersion for me. Please let crafters replace (some of) the customisation features.
-Implement tabards (and cloaks), and let players earn coat of arms (personal or faction/guild) to display on their tabard/cloak/shield. The idea is to recognise the character and not just the armor.
-Craftable dyes to colour clothes(inspired by history and Fallen Earth MMO). Natural green/brown/reds are easy and cheap, bright blue/yellow/purple/white requires high alchemy skills and are expensive.
-Some gear models with toggles/flexibility (eyepatch: choose which eye, hood/hooded cloak: cover face or not, etc)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Zidash, I feel the same way. I've had a sandbox, non-trinity MMO idea bouncing around in my head for at least a year; it sounds like Goblinworks won't be making that MMO the way I imagined it, but it's still sounding nice.
Davor, I totally agree on the UI. Having some windows for chat, current character status, etc. is nice. Having 60 buttons is not. (I'm looking at you, LOTRO; you need 5 action bars to hold all the buttons you need to use, though only 2 or 3 of those bars are needed in combat) I did like Guild Wars' take on combat/UI; you only get 8 skills, so most player strategizing came out of which 8 skills to bring into a fight; that added a lot of strategy to the game, much more than just making more complicated AIs for bosses.
And agreeing with randomwalker on equipment customization. Sure, even if everyone is running around in "+230 gearscore plate mail", it shouldn't all look the same; regional styles, wear and tear, or something as simple as dyes and tabards. Again, Guild Wars.
Basically, if this is Guild Wars meets EvE Online, I will be a happy man.
EDIT: Oh, Guild Wars meets EvE Online, with a crafting system taken from neither. Honestly, Spiral Knights and SWG pre-CU are the closest comparisons to a crafting system I'd like.
1.) Avoid lack of diversity in items and gear, as in WoW where it feels everyone's wearing the same gear from the same raid/raid token merchant.
I'd like to see the diversity of items available in EverQuest as an example. I enjoyed inspecting people and thinking 'where did *that* come from?' and also knowing there were a number of fantastic sounding locations I had not yet been even after months of playing.
I never once felt that in WoW as the world was incredibly small by comparison and all loot anyone of a certain level likely all came from the exact same boss or raid.
I haven't really seen the variety in EQ equaled since, and everything that's come in it's wake felt like the loot was all generated and distributed based on some boring soulless spreadsheet calculation.
Also related to this is the lack of fluff/function/utility items available in modern games. Fun items such as Tolans bracer (right click to summon a stack of arrows)Pegasus cloak (right click to grant yourself levitation). Other fun utility items granted numerous effects such as run speed, damage shields, water breathing, shrink spells, temporary pets etc. Loot lately is just plain boring, I want to discover interesting treasures, not save up tokens to buy the exact same gear as everyone else of my clsas.
2.) Avoid a world that's only designed to facilitate the menial task grind we see in current MMOs. Instead, craft a world that's fun to interact with and explore inherently, and not just there as a surface to plop collect tasks down on.
3.) Avoid the disposable character syndrome we see in other current MMOs in which max level/top end gear can be achieved in a few weeks. As I've said before, I want a long term hobby here, not a quick little ride to the top in an rpg with all cheats enabled. I'm almost 100% confident this will be avoided in PFO based on what we've heard, but a healthy reminder never hurt.
3.) Avoid awkward and clumsy animations regardless of graphical quality.
Proper animations can't be underestimated as they add a tremendous amount of weight to our actions. Slightly off or unnatural animations can strongly detract from the feeling of a well crafted and functioning game.
4.)Avoid full disclosure as much as possible, maintain as many mysteries as you possibly can - which admittedly is a tricky task in a world of loot databases.
I want to at least have the illusion that anything is possible and anything can happen. That will keep me playing. I don't ever want to feel I can precisely predict where or what I'll be doing in a weeks time or what gear I'll be using when I get there.
In larger MMOs prior to WoW the amount of gear and places was almost overwhelming - in the best way possible, it would be a challenge to track down specifics regarding triggered events or loot on Alakazam. However with the smaller current themeparks, it all feels very preordained.
5.) Avoid unresponsive gameplay. Just about the only thing I'd ever recommend borrowing from WoW, ever, is their responsive gameplay.
6.) Avoid offering us a different shade of what we already have. Unless you're confident you're going to do it better, don't simply copy what we can already get elsewhere. I don't think this is something we have to worry about with PFOs proposed direction.
7.) Avoid limiting the ways in which I can interact with your content or encounters. Leave some room for us to approach things from any number of angles, rather than clamping down via strict scripts that play out the exact same every time with one path to victory and no room for creative problem solving.
8.) Avoid linear scripted hallways falsely labeled 'dungeons'. Let us have at least a few gigantic open world complexes to adventure in again. For me the dynamics of an open space offer more replayability and room for adventure than any heavily scripted hallway dungeon ever has.
9.) Avoid limiting the ways we can interact with eachother.
By going to great lengths to prevent players from negatively affecting eachother you also remove any possibility to take the high road or positively affect others in many cases. I want the option to be a hero or a villain, not fenced off by some arbitrary mechanic. Instead discourage potentially negative behavior by forcing culpability and not offering fast name/server changes. This would go a long way towards making a characters reputation carry some weight once again.
10.) Avoid forcing *your* story down my throat, it will never be as important to me as *my* story.
Sure, flesh out your worlds lore, NPCs and factions, but don't force us all to play your story from start to finish, leave us room to find our own adventures in your world.
- I'll stop at 10 for now or I'd go on forever.
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Basically, if this is Guild Wars meets EvE Online, I will be a happy man.
I like.
One thing though that I want not to be included... and I realise there's a lot of reasons to include it - but I really REALLY hate battlegrounds / instanced PvP.
I'm sure the benefits of them speak for themselves, less lag, don't have to travel, PvP from wherever, balance.
... Then there's - no impact on the world, no impact on territory, why would anyone want to fight in the main world if they can just do a battleground? There's BALANCE. Kingdoms shouldn't be about balance. They should be constantly shifting in balance otherwise if you play one battleground you've played them all. I love fighting against the odds sometimes, no matter how likely it is I die. On the other hand, sometimes it feels great to know because of our teamwork and organisation we've got the enemy hopelessly outnumbered. Battlegrounds and instanced PVP are just combat for the sake of combat without consequence and hopefully Ryan takes a similar look at it as he did with duels.
Now I realise some of you are saying you can just do the numbers and say well the winner gets more land, and apply some mechanic to make instanced pvp have an impact on the main world. Again, I say not. If I've worked hard with my guild to create a town, and another guild has worked harder to surround us with maybe a few hundred players - I want to fight to the death in the damn town, on my walls, not some capture the flag or last man standing arena or whatnot.
Rant over ^^
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Goblin Squad Member
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Basically, if this is Guild Wars meets EvE Online, I will be a happy man.
I like.
One thing though that I want not to be included... and I realise there's a lot of reasons to include it - but I really REALLY hate battlegrounds / instanced PvP.
I'm pretty sure from the sounds of goblinworks's plans, you are in luck here. They've been pretty clear that their main goals are persistance, they even seem opposed to dueling etc... So I would say it is most likely a safe bet that the PVP will be more or less entirely world PVP.
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11.) Avoid arbitrarily relying on 'bound' items. Reserve it for special occasions in which you absolutely feel making an item non-tradable is required to maintain the balance you're aiming for.
We've come to expect some degree of 'Bind on pickup' or 'Bind on equip' system, but I feel it makes the worlds economy and trading space more dynamic when lightly used. I personally don't have a problem with advanced players gifting some great gear to less advanced players, provided someone originally did the work required to obtain the item.
If I defeat Slargoth the Maniacal, I should be able to distribute his treasure hoard however I see fit, in my opinion.
Besides, I've never understood why a low level couldn't get lucky and on rare occasions in a fantastical world, discover an item of amazing power early on in their career. I would personally love to spend time in a world in which there's a teeny tiny chance that someone could potentially win the lottery and discover a very powerful item at any time.
Anything that makes me feel less like I'm playing through a spreadsheet is a good thing.
12.) Avoid over use of item limitations beyond possible skill proficiency requisites.
I just defeated a monster that was carrying a sword, however while I'm powerful enough to defeat the enemy, I'm not powerful enough to use the sword...yet? How does that make sense?
I've always been annoyed by that. I know it's easier on developers when they can exert control over every aspect of how you interact with their content, but some sacrifices should be made on occasion in the name of enjoyment.
13.) Avoid trivialising travel and exploration as much as possible, provided the world justifies doing so.
Obviously if you're creating a world in which there's no reason to go off the beaten track, making travel time consuming makes no sense. But judging by the tone of the blogs and proposed systems we do know of, I don't think that's PFO.
It's certainly an area to be approached carefully as it will probably have a large impact on gameplay.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1.) Avoid lack of diversity in items and gear, as in WoW where it feels everyone's wearing the same gear from the same raid/raid token merchant.
WoW specifically stated their goal was to ensure that you could recognize another player's race/class/gear-level just from the silhouette. I think that's almost necessary in their rendition of PvP.
I am most hopeful that PFO does not pursue the same goal. I would much rather have the option of playing Lancelot wearing burlap sacks with a tree branch as a club, looking like an old farmer who just picked up the closest thing to a weapon he could find, but in truth being one of the most skilled fighters of the era. If you don't recognize the scene, you really need to watch Excalibur.
It's very important to me to be able to confuse and deceive the other players, either by making them think I'm an NPC, or by making them think I'm another class entirely.
3.) Avoid awkward and clumsy animations regardless of graphical quality.
LOTRO has always been almost unplayable to me with respect to melee characters just because of the way the animations lock me down, or seem to take too long, or don't reach far enough, etc. WoW/Vanguard/Rift/SWTOR, all of these are imminently playable in that it feels fluid when you press the buttons to activate the abilities.
Please, please, please, don't ever make me wait through a 3-second induction timer unless there's a very compelling reason. I don't begin to understand why summoning a horse, etc. out of combat can't be instant. Anything that causes frustration to the player should be minimized unless there's an actual reason for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Please, please, please, don't ever make me wait through a 3-second induction timer unless there's a very compelling reason. I don't begin to understand why summoning a horse, etc. out of combat can't be instant. Anything that causes frustration to the player should be minimized unless there's an actual reason for it.
Well I think that example actually does have a justification, If you see someone charging towards you with their sword drawn about to swing you are technically out of combat but it would be considered cheap to instantly pop onto your mount and outrun his swing, of course that's also mainly due to WoW etc... having no mechanics for mounted combat, so unless your opponent is ranged that is sort of an IWin button/free escape since in WoW once you are mounted your opponent has no possible option to catch or dismount you until you decide to dismount, he can either mount and follow you to your destination (being unable to attack until you reach it, as even if he catches up to you he'd have to dismount to attack you)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon - the timer is almost certainly a session timer. It's designed to get various server elements in synch. A lot of short delays in MMOs are caused by this issue. In fact it rarely takes more than fractions of a second but the designers have built in some room for the occasions when it takes longer which while infrequent, do happen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I think that example actually does have a justification, If you see someone charging towards you with their sword drawn about to swing you are technically out of combat...
Please, please, please, don't ever make me wait through a 3-second induction timer unless there's a very compelling reason. I don't begin to understand why summoning a horse, etc. out of combat can't be instant. Anything that causes frustration to the player should be minimized unless there's an actual reason for it.
That's actually a separate problem, and one that I'll wager is very familiar to anyone who's ever played a character that pulls with a DoT that doesn't deal immediate damage. The game really needs to give all characters an instant, long-range ability that will engage another character in combat, even if it doesn't do any damage at all, and even if it doesn't cause aggro. Although, I would strongly recommend that a character only be able to engage a single mob at a time, and only for 6 seconds or so.
If we all get used to using this ability first, and it fails if someone else already has that mob engaged, then there won't be griefing by running up and hitting a mob right before another player casts on it, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon - the timer is almost certainly a session timer. It's designed to get various server elements in synch. A lot of short delays in MMOs are caused by this issue. In fact it rarely takes more than fractions of a second but the designers have built in some room for the occasions when it takes longer which while infrequent, do happen.
Well, that certainly counts as a compelling reason :)
In that case, please go with Vanguard's model of letting you move while casting certain spells/abilities, including mounting your horse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's actually a separate problem, and one that I'll wager is very familiar to anyone who's ever played a character that pulls with a DoT that doesn't deal immediate damage. The game really needs to give all characters an instant, long-range ability that will engage another character in combat, even if it doesn't do any damage at all, and even if it doesn't cause aggro. Although, I would strongly recommend that a character only be able to engage a single mob at a time, and only for 6 seconds or so.
If we all get used to using this ability first, and it fails if someone else already has that mob engaged, then there won't be griefing by running up and hitting a mob right before another player casts on it, etc.
Assuming it leaves a visible claim on the target, that can actually work pretty well. Possibly even just putting a "watched" icon or something when you target a player or mob, that may create the delay could work. Of course in that context how to handle mounting when being "watched" or "engaged" is still kind of a variable. Would it add the 3 second timer in, or make it impossible to mount while being engaged. The advantage of the 3 second system is that it does grant a chance to escape, without guaranteeing it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would it add the 3 second timer in, or make it impossible to mount while being engaged.
In my mind, there's a huge difference between being in Tactical mode, versus being in Strategic mode. I'd like as much realism as is realistically feasible. That said, it seems like you ought to be able to mount a horse while you're engaged, but that it ought to be fairly easy for someone who's close enough to run up and grab you from behind while you're trying. I've ridden enough horses to know that, unless you're very well-skilled at it, mounting a horse is a fairly vulnerable experience, and it's really easy to go right over the other side :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would it add the 3 second timer in, or make it impossible to mount while being engaged.In my mind, there's a huge difference between being in Tactical mode, versus being in Strategic mode. I'd like as much realism as is realistically feasible. That said, it seems like you ought to be able to mount a horse while you're engaged, but that it ought to be fairly easy for someone who's close enough to run up and grab you from behind while you're trying. I've ridden enough horses to know that, unless you're very well-skilled at it, mounting a horse is a fairly vulnerable experience, and it's really easy to go right over the other side :)
Right because it isn't instantaneous, and takes at least 3 seconds to get on the horse and get your balance before you can have it go foward. Is the main pet peeve the fact that it is a bar going across the screen and the horse poof appearing under you rather than the horse appearing and there being an animation of climbing onto the horse?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is the main pet peeve the fact that it is a bar going across the screen and the horse poof appearing under you rather than the horse appearing and there being an animation of climbing onto the horse?
My main pet peeve was actually the delay and not being able to move around during that time. If there's a valid reason for the delay, like making sure the server is prepared for the faster movement, or whatever, then that's fine.
I would prefer not to be rooted while summoning my horse, if there's not a good reason for it.