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Weeeelll....a size 16 NOW is very different than a size 16 then, I think. I've been working on losing weight for over a year now, and I'm juuuust getting to the point where I could consider a size 16 jean (my new 18s are almost too loose...yay!). As excited as I am to be nearing the point I could wear a size I haven't worn since high school, I have no illusions I'm approaching Marilyn Monroe's size. :)
The sentiment in general, however, is appreciated, I think. :)
:-)
I find it a little hard to find much sympathy for the social pressures being put on girls for being too fat/skinny/whatever when i was being punched in the face for being the fat kid.
Sorry, concussion > mean words.
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Not by everyone.
I prefer cats myself.
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Weeeelll....a size 16 NOW is very different than a size 16 then, I think. I've been working on losing weight for over a year now, and I'm juuuust getting to the point where I could consider a size 16 jean (my new 18s are almost too loose...yay!). As excited as I am to be nearing the point I could wear a size I haven't worn since high school, I have no illusions I'm approaching Marilyn Monroe's size. :)
The sentiment in general, however, is appreciated, I think. :)
I'd take a redhead over a blonde any day of the week!
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I find it a little hard to find much sympathy for the social pressures being put on girls for being too fat/skinny/whatever when i was being punched in the face for being the fat kid.
Sorry, concussion > mean words.
So... you suffered under the intolerance of others, and that makes you unable to find sympathy in others' suffering under intolerance.
Okay.
I find it a little hard to find much sympathy for the social pressures being put on girls for being too fat/skinny/whatever when i was being punched in the face for being the fat kid.
Sorry, concussion > mean words.
So... you suffered under the intolerance of others, and that makes you unable to find sympathy in others' suffering under intolerance.
Okay.
Its a matter of degree. Social ostracism just doesn't register as a blip on my evilometer, nor does "its so unfair that all these social expectations exist of me!" If you don't like the social expectations then stop caring.
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Its a matter of degree. Social ostracism just doesn't register as a blip on my evilometer, nor does "its so unfair that all these social expectations exist of me!" If you don't like the social expectations then stop caring.I find it a little hard to find much sympathy for the social pressures being put on girls for being too fat/skinny/whatever when i was being punched in the face for being the fat kid.
Sorry, concussion > mean words.
So... you suffered under the intolerance of others, and that makes you unable to find sympathy in others' suffering under intolerance.
Okay.
=/
This comes off as a "I've had it worse, so quit whining" sort of comment. You're free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Trust me, I know I haven't had it the worst.
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Nah, that's not racism. you like what you like. For me, Imrijka is the sort of curvy, confident female that I find attractive. If Merisiel is more the type that gets your motor running, there's nothing wrong with that. People like different things. It's all good. :)I might want to be Merisiel, but Imrijka looks a lot sexier.Threadjack (as if this thread could get any more jacked). Merisiel is way hotter. I never got what people see in Imrijka from the purely physical attractiveness standpoint. Is it racism if I don't like tusks and forearms like tree trunks?
I'm alllllll for Imrijka, myself. I love Alhazara's outfit, but she's a *bit* too skinny for me.
Okay, now I can relate to you again! :D
On Ally, my main concern there is her neck. But on the flipside, I wouldn't want her to not have the big damn hat because it's cool and it's a major part of her image now.
But damn that is a big hat.
To be honest, I find it mostly upsetting that Alain has a following. Seltyiel deserves so much better.
Also it's not a matter of whether you care or not. It's a matter of finding others who don't care.
Wait, what? I'm not universally loved, respected and well treated? Damn, you gonna kick my puppy next? :P
This comes off as a "I've had it worse, so quit whining" sort of comment. You're free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Well, not wrong, just not entirely right either.
Its not a matter of what people have personally experienced, just a matter of what the genders, on average, tend to go through as they're being raised in society. The focus has been on the social pressure that girls are under, and largely ignores the social and physical pressures that boys minds are under.
There's an undercurrent here that women are allowed to have their hangups, but guys are supposed to completely ditch theirs. This is frankly, more sexist (to both sexes) than anything short of the scene in the gamers where they're handing the girl joining the group a broad sword...
Also it's not a matter of whether you care or not. It's a matter of finding others who don't care.
Exactly. And for socially awkward geeks those other people are.. dun dun dun... other gamers. You have a bunch of people with a similar mindset and you don't have to pretend to be something you're not (while ironically partaking of a game where you do pretend to be something you're not...) You by and large don't need to worry if a joke is off color or inappropriate in other settings. Its very freeform and everyone knows that the ribbing is all in good fun so you don't need to worry too much about offending other people's feelings.
Hence the defensive reaction when someone like the author of the article goes off calling how large segments of the geek population interact badwrongfun. Its often not a girl friendly because its a subculture largely set up by guys for guys. Its not that there's a deliberate effort to exclude girls, its just that asking a majority to charge their behavior for a minority doesn't make a whole lot of sense in a leisure activity. The idea that men's fun is wrong and needs to change is at least as sexist as the fan service pictures.
I don't know how many guys will buy or pay attention to a book because the sorceress is showing more cleavage than an epic level orc barbarian with a greataxe, but I know its greater than the number of guys who are going to actually be offended by the picture.
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I may have been universally loved until I started this thread and somehow summoned the world's most awful Internet troll to the Paizo boards. XD.
I've been quietly following along, and I think there is a lot of interesting civil discussion.
A few points:
Nobody should feel guilty about who they're attracted to and what turns them on (within ethical limits of course).
A little empathy goes a long way, it's easy to dismiss the PoV of others when a problem doesn't affect you.
I know more female scientists and lab techs than I do male. Boys are bad at math! (Lulz)
Honestly BNW, I'd say the problem is that there are things you conceive of as "men's fun." The deliberate effort to exclude girls is built into your premise.
Honestly BNW, I'd say the problem is that there are things you conceive of as "men's fun." The deliberate effort to exclude girls is built into your premise.
Not really. Its just a problem with either English or politically correct language assuming that because something has the lable "male" it means "all male" or "only male" as opposed to "stereotypically male"
Saying "activities and modes of behavior that are engaged in by men at a significantly higher rate than women" is just a little cumbersome.
Its not a matter of what people have personally experienced, just a matter of what the genders, on average, tend to go through as they're being raised in society. The focus has been on the social pressure that girls are under, and largely ignores the social and physical pressures that boys minds are under.There's an undercurrent here that women are allowed to have their hangups, but guys are supposed to completely ditch theirs. This is frankly, more sexist than anything short of the scene in the gamers where they're handing the girl joining the group a broad sword...
This thread was about the girls, and so the thread focuses on girls. I'm not sure where in this thread you inquired that it's not okay for guys to feel bad. In fact in a couple of my previous posts talk about how it's not only women who get injusticed. However that is another (although definitely relative) topic.
Exactly. And for socially awkward geeks those other people are.. dun dun dun... other gamers. You have a bunch of people with a similar mindset and you don't have to pretend to be something you're not (while ironically partaking of a game where you do pretend to be something you're not...) You by and large don't need to worry if a joke is off color or inappropriate in other settings. Its very freeform and everyone knows that the ribbing is all in good fun so you don't need to worry too much about offending other people's feelings.
Hence the defensive reaction when someone like the author of the article goes off calling how large segments of the geek population interact badwrongfun. Its often not a girl friendly because its a subculture largely set up by guys for guys. Its not that there's a deliberate effort to exclude girls, its just that asking a majority to charge their behavior for a minority doesn't make a whole lot of sense in a leisure activity. The idea that men's fun is wrong and needs to change is at least as sexist as the fan service pictures.
See, I sometimes see this statement that the hobby consists mostly of "socially awkward geeks" and that has not proven true in my experience. I have met many sociable and friendly people that game. In fact I avoided the game in highschool because of that rumor, however I got into the game as a social event in college. Even the ones that are socially awkward (because I have ran into them) become less socially awkward when they actually get social experience and meet new, real people.
As for guys having their cheesecake. They can have all the cheesecake they want. I don't care what guys are lusting after. I really don't care if you have the woman who fits your fantasy half naked on the covers.
It's not what you guys look for in the comics that offends anyone, it's how you treat people in real life. It's when someone who claims to be socially rejected decides to socially reject someone else based on first glance. It's not everyone, in fact it's a rather small minority. But when they do, everyone that is associated with them gets the bad reputation.
This thread was about the girls, and so the thread focuses on girls. I'm not sure where in this thread you inquired that it's not okay for guys to feel bad. In fact in a couple of my previous posts talk about how it's not only women who get injusticed. However that is another (although definitely relative) topic.
Above, someone was talking about how the unrealisitic portrayal of women hurts them.
See, I sometimes see this statement that the hobby consists mostly of "socially awkward geeks" and that has not proven true in my experience.
It got to be a stereotype for a reason. Even if its not mostly socially awkward geeks, there's enough of us in there to alter the average significantly.
I have met many sociable and friendly people that game. In fact I avoided the game in highschool because of that rumor, however I got into the game as a social event in college. Even the ones that are socially awkward (because I have ran into them) become less socially awkward when they actually get social experience and meet new, real people.
Right, and I think a fair bit of that is because the game is accepting
of social awkwardness.I think I'll need my tiger skin tunic and club for the next part..
A more female friendly environment means cracking down harder on social faux pas, which means the socially awkward geeks pulling away from that group.
As for guys having their cheesecake. They can have all the cheesecake they want. I don't care what guys are lusting after. I really don't care if you have the woman who fits your fantasy half naked on the covers.
The cheese cake I can only respond to in general for my gender, since i seem to have defaulted to the defacto spokesman for the "Og grunt" set. Personally its lost on me.
It's not what you guys look for in the comics that offends anyone, it's how you treat people in real life. It's when someone who claims to be socially rejected decides to socially reject someone else based on first glance. It's not everyone, in fact it's a rather small minority. But when they do, everyone that is associated with them gets the bad reputation.
I think part of the problem there is what looks like a social rejection on the receivers end wasn't intended that way on the senders.
As said above, guys play rough and we're not subtle. If your rear end isn't sticking out of a garbage can, chances are pretty good that the other person doesn't actually hate you. A comment between girls that could spawn years of animosity can be passed between two guys as a joke. So what he thinks is a joke to you, you see as social rejection from him. He's acting as if you're a guy, and you're taking it as if it were coming from a girl.
Its a case of miscommunication. What the author of the article seems to be saying is "You guys are doing it wrong, you have to do it the other way." What I'm trying to say is that " Guy is the official "language" of the gaming table by virtue of the population dynamics, and expecting everyone else to communicate like a girl there is like an american going to a foreign country and getting mad because no one speaks english.
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I think part of the problem there is what looks like a social rejection on the receivers end wasn't intended that way on the senders.
As said above, guys play rough and we're not subtle. If your rear end isn't sticking out of a garbage can, chances are pretty good that the other person doesn't actually hate you. A comment between girls that could spawn years of animosity can be passed between two guys as a joke. So what he thinks is a joke to you, you see as social rejection from him. He's acting as if you're a guy, and you're taking it as if it were coming from a girl.
Its a case of miscommunication. What the author of the article seems to be saying is "You guys are doing it wrong, you have to do it the other way." What I'm trying to say is that " Guy is the official "language" of the gaming table by virtue of the population dynamics, and expecting everyone else to communicate like a girl there is like an american going to a foreign country and getting mad because no one speaks english.
Bull. S#+*.
I've known more than a few guys who were hypersensitive to wording and more than a few girls (often myself included) who were socially oblivious and had to stop and really take the time to learn the social niceties. This awful stereotype of male and female communication is just that and both genders would be better off without it.
I've known more than a few guys who were hypersensitive to wording and more than a few girls (often myself included) who were socially oblivious and had to stop and really take the time to learn the social niceties. This awful stereotype of male and female communication is just that and both genders would be better off without it.
I'm not saying that it applies to every individual but it applies often enough to be a general trend. Amazon Eve is taller than I am, but men are still taller than women.
What I'm trying to say is that " Guy is the official "language" of the gaming table by virtue of population dynamics and expecting everyone else to communicate like a girl there is like an american going to a foreign country and getting mad because no one speaks english.
Once again, that thar is male privilege.
I've known more than a few guys who were hypersensitive to wording and more than a few girls (often myself included) who were socially oblivious and had to stop and really take the time to learn the social niceties. This awful stereotype of male and female communication is just that and both genders would be better off without it.I'm not saying that it applies to every individual but it applies often enough to be a general trend. Amazon Eve is taller than I am, but men are still taller than women.
Height and social behavior are very different things. You're comparing apples and cabbages there.
Also, while I will agree that that is an oft mentioned perception, I strongly question whether the actual behavior of actual people truly follows that model. At some point you have the concede that there are enough outliers that the hypothetical model just isn't working. People are people and the presence or absence of a y chromosome doesn't inherently make people more or less sensitive.
What I'm trying to say is that " Guy is the official "language" of the gaming table by virtue of population dynamics and expecting everyone else to communicate like a girl there is like an american going to a foreign country and getting mad because no one speaks english.Once again, that thar is male privilege.
That thar is majority rules, which is how every every social group decides how they're going to do things, either implicitly or explicitly. Expecting that to change to include more girls is female privlidge.
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What I'm trying to say is that " Guy is the official "language" of the gaming table by virtue of population dynamics and expecting everyone else to communicate like a girl there is like an american going to a foreign country and getting mad because no one speaks english.Once again, that thar is male privilege.That thar is majority rules, which is how every every social group decides how they're going to do things, either implicitly or explicitly. Expecting that to change to include more girls is female privlidge.
Actually it's egalitarianism. It's changing the culture to make it more inclusive rather than maintaining a status quo which is inherently exclusionary.
Height and social behavior are very different things. You're comparing apples and cabbages there.
They're both biologically influenced, one is just less of a hot button social issue and more objectively measurable than the other.
Also, while I will agree that that is an oft mentioned perception, I strongly question whether the actual behavior of actual people truly follows that model. At some point you have the concede that there are enough outliers that the hypothetical model just isn't working.
And I'm not remotely close to hitting that point.
People are people and the presence or absence of a y chromosome doesn't inherently make people more or less sensitive.
Testosterone Reduces Conscious Detection of Signals Serving Social Correction
This testosterone-induced impairment in the conscious detection of the socially corrective facial signal of anger may predispose individuals to antisocial behavior.
Now, I am not saying that every male is less sensitive than every female. Nor is anyone saying that every female representation in an rpg is cheese cake, or that every group has a sense of male privilege. But I've seen the trends often enough to believe that they are in fact real trends.
If you want to give my statements a resounding b~*~!!&+ you would have to, by the same logic, give a resounding b!$#%+%* to the problem of male privilege in general
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You linked a study.
Are you a psychologist? Nobody in that field would imagine you can extrapolate your argument from the linked study.
You linked a study.
Are you a psychologist? Nobody in that field would imagine you can extrapolate your argument from the linked study.
My entire argument? Of course not. The very specific claim that there is a link betweeen being male and missing social cues? Yes.
See, that's just what I was talking about. You're equating "elevated testosterone" with being male.
See, that's just what I was talking about. You're equating "elevated testosterone" with being male.
And political correctness not only hits rock bottom but it also proceeds to burrow with gusto...
See, that's just what I was talking about. You're equating "elevated testosterone" with being male.And political correctness not only hits rock bottom but it also proceeds to burrow with gusto...
You are aware that women have testosterone, too, right? And that men have estrogen? And that the study you linked to was done on women?
You are aware that women have testosterone, too, right? And that men have estrogen? And that the study you linked to was done on women?See, that's just what I was talking about. You're equating "elevated testosterone" with being male.And political correctness not only hits rock bottom but it also proceeds to burrow with gusto...
Yes, yes and yes.
I'm sorry, but objecting to the statement that men have higher testosterone levels than women pushes political correctness to beyond ludicrous levels and strait into plaid. It strains any credibility for the arguments that the differences between men and women aren't actually there when you're going to outright ignore facts.
Men and women are different, and those differences extend well beyond the plumbing. The trends do not apply to every single individual, but that does not make them any less real. Society exaggerates those differences , but they do have a biological basis and they're not going anywhere no matter how hard people decry the alleged sexism of recognizing them.
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You have no idea what you're talking about.
In science, you use operational definitions and avoid extrapolating results wildly as you have done here.
Being male is not functionally the same as having elevated levels of testosterone. It's not about being politically correct, though thank you for implying that I had "hit rock bottom".
No scientist could possibly take your argument seriously based on the study you linked. YES, there is a correlation between antisocial personality disorder and being male. Are you claiming that the socially awkward males under discussion are psychopaths? Are you claiming that all males are psychopaths?
What exactly are you claiming and why did you link to an abstract of a peer review study on ASPD?
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Show, don't tell. Because I'm really not going to take your unspecific insults as either an argument or legitimate criticism.
Oh, I'm reading the article right now. You're not going to like the results.
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I'm sorry, but objecting to the statement that men have higher testosterone levels than women pushes political correctness to beyond ludicrous levels and strait into plaid.
I never objected to the statement that men have higher testosterone levels than women. I passed high school biology, I know about sex hormones. Nothing I said had anything to do with political correctness (though I could go on about the subject at length). You're extrapolating, and incorrectly so.
Men and women are different, and those differences extend well beyond the plumbing.
Okay, and if this is true, then why are you citing a study done on women as proof that men are anti-social? It's completely false to draw that conclusion, and that's definitely not what the study proves.
Also, what Evil Lincoln said.
Also, what Evil Lincoln said; he did provide legitimate criticism in his post, if you read past the first paragraph.
That was an edit. Everything past the first sentence was added while he was writing a response.
That was an edit. Everything past the first sentence was added while he was writing a response.
**waves hands** This is not the quote you're looking for.
**1984s post**
Men and women are different, and those differences extend well beyond the plumbing.Okay, and if this is true, then why are you citing a study done on women as proof that men are anti-social? It's completely false to draw that conclusion, and that's definitely not what the study proves.
Also, what Evil Lincoln said; he did provide legitimate criticism in his post, if you read past the first paragraph.
Alright, last post here because this is going to turn ugly in a minute.
The more specific criticism wasn't there when i responded. He edited while I was replying. There wasn't anything to read past when i responded. It happens.
Okay, and if this is true, then why are you citing a study done on women as proof that men are anti-social?
Its not a matter of being anti social. Its a matter of picking up on subtle cues or missing them.
You have male brains that are soaking in 10 times the amount of testosterone as a female brain. Either
1) Mens brains and womens brains actually are different... in which case my point is proven. (which is more generally my point)
2) The effect is going to be the same on men's brains and womens brains, and men are going to miss the more subtle social interactions (which was specifically my point)
The study you cited is about Anti-Social Personality Disorder. The cues (fear and aggression, not both of which were affected, btw) were selected on that basis.
That has nothing to do with your "subtle" cues.
You can't take a study where testosterone is administered to females and extrapolate that to the general state of being male. Most of what goes on in the endocrine system that results in behavioral changes comes down to interactions with multiple glands and the hormones that are released.
In general, you shouldn't be linking to the abstract of a single study to prove any kind of point. It's extremely disrespectful to the entire process. Maybe a literature review would have been more acceptable, but linking a single study is just an attempt to look authoritative to people who don't know better.
You have a right to your opinion, it's exclusively your pseudo-science that's pissing me off.
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You have male brains that are soaking in 10 times the amount of testosterone as a female brain. Either
1) Mens brains and womens brains actually are different... in which case my point is proven. (which is more generally my point)
2) The effect is going to be the same on men's brains and womens brains, and men are going to miss the more subtle social interactions (which was specifically my point)
Okay, first off, men might have more testosterone than women, but women are more sensitive to it.
You keep mentioning the relationship between testosterone and a man's brain verses a woman's brain, but you don't seem to know how testosterone actually affects the brain. The main difference? Men have bigger brains. No surprise there, since men tend to be bigger than women, in general, so having a bigger brain makes sense.
As for the effects of testosterone on mood? Citation needed, in many cases. There's been a lot of bad science conducted in this field, and plenty of assumptions made which add bias to the studies that have been conducted. Other than the differences in size, about the only thing that's conclusive when it comes to testosterone and the brain is that more research needs to be done.
tl;dr? The study you linked to doesn't prove your point at all, you can't draw conclusions about the behaviour of men based on a study conducted on women, and more research needs to be done before solid conclusions can be drawn on how testosterone affects the brain.
The pseudo-science used to claim people are being overly politically-correct is what's pigging me off, for the record.
As for the effects of testosterone on mood? Citation needed, in many cases.
For those who may not have free access to the full article (through a university or such):
Wilcoxon rank tests detected no significant differences in mood between the testosterone and placebo conditions (all ps > .25), as in our earlier studies with the same methodology (e.g., van Honk et al., 2001, 2005). Moreover, given that testosterone had no effects on mood, the observed effects of testosterone on emotion recognition cannot be attributed to secondary mood- generated response biases.
A p value of .25 is pretty freakin' lax, even for a psych study. Even if they were claiming a significant effect on mood (which they don't), the low p threshold would be a valid critique.
Honestly, I have yet to see any study on gender roles with a big enough sample size to rely on anything but confirmation bias.
Also, given what we know about brain plasticity at this point, there's plenty of reason to think culture has an effect on brain chemistry.
A more female friendly environment means cracking down harder on social faux pas, which means the socially awkward geeks pulling away from that group.
No, there are better solutions. Such as giving them real life experience. Unless you truly believe that men can not learn. Gaming doesn't have to change, it's already become more female friendly in case you haven't noticed. If you don't want to learn to deal with women when they want to play, you're only isolating yourselves.
(Example not involving women of the same concept)
I mean if a group of guys were playing, and then they start cracking fat jokes every five minutes and talk about how much it sucks to be fat, someone who is overweight would not feel welcome. However if most of the group is okay with overweight people, and there's that one guy who will just insult and crack jokes about fat people, the one guy would be isolated when they want to play with their overweight friend. OR they could tell the one guy to cut it out with the fat jokes.
It's not what you guys look for in the comics that offends anyone, it's how you treat people in real life. It's when someone who claims to be socially rejected decides toI think part of the problem there is what looks like a social rejection on the receivers end wasn't intended that way on the senders.
Even if it's not intended to offend someone, that doesn't change the fact that it's a social rejection. If someone says,
"Why are you so flabby?""You're so hairy, you should shave"
"You're so heavy, why don't you work out more?"
"Why do you spend all you're time playing games in your basement? You're like a mole."
"Fat guys always have BO."
"Where are your muscles? You're a guy right?"
"Why are guys always so stupid?"
Maybe the person thought they were helping you lead into a new direction, maybe they were just stating a misconception they thought to be a fact. It doesn't change the fact that they are saying that they have a problem with you, thus it is a social rejection. Offcolor jokes and observations might be funny, but they can also be offensive especially if they misrepresent the target in a negative light.
As said above, guys play rough and we're not subtle. If your rear end isn't sticking out of a garbage can, chances are pretty good that the other person doesn't actually hate you. A comment between girls that could spawn years of animosity can be passed between two guys as a joke. So what he thinks is a joke to you, you see as social rejection from him. He's acting as if you're a guy, and you're taking it as if it were coming from a girl.
As Lynora already stated, and as can be seen with the above examples. Anyone can be hurt by offcolor comments. Sexist jokes are like racist jokes. Some people have a ball with them and know they aren't being serious. It has nothing to do with men or women being more/less sensitive.
If someone wants to start up nature vs nurture we can take it to another thread. Lets go through this with a more concrete example. Now i know this is technically fiction, but 1) Its funny because while it may be an exaggerated truth, it is in fact truth and 2) It seems to have happened to someone on this thread almost verbatim.
I know what I'm saying isn't popular but you're not going to fix anything by only talking with the people that you agree with and not trying to see things from the social maladroits point of view.
How much control do you really expect over a surprise situation? If you want the geeks to have a more acceptable reaction you're basically asking them to either 1) have a better poker face (ie, lie better) or 2) Not think that its odd that a girls in the gaming store. Of course 2 is only possible if there are more girls in the gaming store, which is prevented from happening in part by the guys reaction... so there's abit of a catch 22 there. 1 is hard to fix because they don't exactly give classes on that.
The thing to remember here is that the guys are not delibrately doing anything to exclude the girl. They simply facing an unknown social situation and don't know how to act.
The fighter he makes has a high armor class, a high strength, and lots of hit points. It does not sound like a particularly girly character. Those are the requirements for any fighter.
The bikini mail is stated as being "only the best armor a female can ware" .. implying some sort of sexism within the system.(cough 1e cough) Broad sword is a sexist joke that gets a laugh out of the group (including the DM who seems to be TRYING to be correct enough not to laugh)
Also "New guy always dies" Gender neutral
Gary was ribbing on Leo's penchant of dying by increasingly odd circumstances. It went a little too far for gary , who said rather directly "Shut up". No social cues, no subtle signals , a very simple and direct "shut up" that was repeated, followed by the much larger Leo actually grabbing Gary and holding him up. Gary actually smiles, no one even bats an eyelash, and its not treated as a big deal. Do you spend the rest of the scene/movie thinking that Leo is a horrible person?
What would the reaction be if Cass had done that to Joanna? Way.. way.. WAAAAAAY different. Antman still hasn't lived it down...
Social interaction between men and women is NOT the same as between just men. Pretending it is, or should be, is just going to add to the problem.
Male bard seducing the female character played by the female? Freaking. creeeeeeeeepy with a capital eeeeep. He avoids it entirely. Notice how her character is the only thing in skirts he doesn't try to seduce. He's treating her differently because treating her the same would make him look like an enormous creep
No, there are better solutions. Such as giving them real life experience. Unless you truly believe that men can not learn. Gaming doesn't have to change, it's already become more female friendly in case you haven't noticed. If you don't want to learn to deal with women when they want to play, you're only isolating yourselves.
A more female friendly environment means cracking down harder on social faux pas, which means the socially awkward geeks pulling away from that group.
I think this response is rather telling. Note how you're putting ALL of the onus to change on the males.
(Example not involving women of the same concept)
I mean if a group of guys were playing, and then they start cracking fat jokes every five minutes and talk about how much it sucks to be fat, someone who is overweight would not feel welcome. However if most of the group is okay with overweight people, and there's that one guy who will just insult and crack jokes about fat people, the one guy would be isolated when they want to play with their overweight friend. OR they could tell the one guy to cut it out with the fat jokes.
Well, what you have in the analogy is a group that's either without fat people, or with fat people who don't care. Introducing one fat person that cares is asking one person to moderate thair behavior for one other person, which would be more or less fair.
However the ratio with many geeking groups is NOT 1 to 1. You are instead asking 5 people to moderate their behavior for the inclusion of 1. That heavily weights that one persons feelings above everyone elses.
Even if it's not intended to offend someone, that doesn't change the fact that it's a social rejection.
Yes, it does in fact. It changes the intent and it completely alters what can be done to mitigate it. Someone that is delibrately trying to hurt or exclude someone isn't going to stop because they realize that they're hurting and excluding someone. THe social maladroit that thinks they're being funny is probably going to stop, or at least tone it down, IF they realize that they're hurting someone's feelings with what they think its a joke.
The idea that someone can't possibly be THAT clueless they must KNOW what they're doing ... needs to be redefined with some groups.
Your entire solution comes accross as "You all need to improve your social skills so i'll hang out with you" without any of the corallary "Huh, he could be trying to be mean or he could be trying to be funny, lets give him the benefit of the doubt"
Maybe the person thought they were helping you lead into a new direction, maybe they were just stating a misconception they thought to be a fact. It doesn't change the fact that they are saying that they...
It changes the response. If i think someone is trying to be mean, I'd probably introduce their nose to the table at some point and leave. If I think they're THAT socially autistic I'd probably try to ignore it, and If they're trying to be funny i would quip back with the level of jokes i was comfortable with and shoot back a "Dude not f~@%ing funny" when they crossed over the line.
As Lynora already stated, and as can be seen with the above examples. Anyone can be hurt by offcolor comments.
The expectation is that guys will take that hurt, bury it in a deep dark hole, and let it die so that it doesn't matter. It works for me, it seems to work for other guys as far as i can tell without a mind reading machine.
Its more acceptable for women to get upset far easier and everyone will usually come to their defense when it happens. I try to be conscious of this, and as a result I'm really not going to push some of the boundaries of role playing with a female gamer that I would with a male.
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Well, what you have in the analogy is a group that's either without fat people, or with fat people who don't care. Introducing one fat person that cares is asking one person to moderate thair behavior for one other person, which would be more or less fair.However the ratio with many geeking groups is NOT 1 to 1. You are instead asking 5 people to moderate their behavior for the inclusion of 1. That heavily weights that one persons feelings above everyone elses.
Uh, are you implying that majority of most groups are subconsciously misogynistic? If so, then yeah fewer women would game. In a group that doesn't constantly make comments to degrade women and actually want to include girls in their group, it's the one guy who wants to make such comments that's asking his feelings to be weighted over everyone else.
The expectation is that guys will take that hurt, bury it in a deep dark hole, and let it die so that it doesn't matter. It works for me, it seems to work for other guys as far as i can tell without a mind reading machine.
Its more acceptable for women to get upset far easier and everyone will usually come to their defense when it happens. I try to be conscious of this, and as a result I'm really not going to push some of the boundaries of role playing with a female gamer that I would with a male.
Those are the social expectations sometimes spread by the media. It doesn't reflect reality. Saying that men don't respond insults and bashing. Saying that women can't handle insults. It's a false and offensive belief to both genders.
If you believe that, then you treat those that don't fit into that model as outcasts (and of course those type of people will avoid you).
* Men who are sensitive to insults about him or his demographic (such as appearance, weight, sexual orientation, racist jokes) get treated as cry babys.
* Women who try to be self-reliant and get annoyed when everyone tries to comes to her defense simply because she's a girl or when everyone tries to help her out even though she's experienced at what she does get called out as "b#*+~es" who don't make sense.
BNW, you affect what people you deal with based on how you treat them. Your table is not the world or even the gaming industry.