|
I'm thinking of allowing Paladins to be any Good alignment and Antipaladins to be any Evil alignment in my campaign. Can you, my fellow Paizoites help me examine the potential pitfalls in doing so? I know that one of the minor changes will be changing the spell lists to match the alignment of the character. For example, Adding Detect Law and removing Detect Chaos for a Chaotic Good Paladin.
I think I prefer the "Is X evil?" threads to these removing alignment restriction ones.
I'm thinking of allowing Paladins to be any Good alignment and Antipaladins to be any Evil alignment in my campaign. Can you, my fellow Paizoites help me examine the potential pitfalls in doing so? I know that one of the minor changes will be changing the spell lists to match the alignment of the character. For example, Adding Detect Law and removing Detect Chaos for a Chaotic Good Paladin.
I don't see any problems with it, other than it'll be more difficult to force your paladins to fall.
|
|
I'm thinking of allowing Paladins to be any Good alignment and Antipaladins to be any Evil alignment in my campaign. Can you, my fellow Paizoites help me examine the potential pitfalls in doing so? I know that one of the minor changes will be changing the spell lists to match the alignment of the character. For example, Adding Detect Law and removing Detect Chaos for a Chaotic Good Paladin.I don't see any problems with it, other than it'll be more difficult to force your paladins to fall.
I've never been a GM who would force a PC Paladin to fall. I like giving them tough choices though.
When they aren't LG, the choices are faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar less tough.
Expect a proliferation of CG Paladins who are simply Fighters with all the benefits of being a Paladin with none of the balancing 'hassle'.
Cake & Eat it too! (Without the guilt and lbs!)
So no...
There's plenty of threads where this has been debated, and it just turns into a circus.
If you allow this I might suggest that those Pallies who don't follow LG have a little less power then one who is LG and a sliding scale in the form of penalties to Pally powers.
Or, just tell those players who want to take a 'Paladin' of NG/CG that the class exists already and can be found here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/holy-vindi cator
Here's my problem with the CG/NG paladin. You're doing one of 2 things; you're creating a character who ignores one of the main class features (the strict code of a Paladin), or you're saying each of them has their own version, so there's a strict CG and NG code just like the traditional LG code. However, good luck trying to uphold "good" while simultaneously fighting against "law" unless you're in a very odd society. Even more luck trying to uphold a fair balance between Chaos and Law in some sort of strict way.
The only way it works unless you're willing to scrap the strict code, which in my opinion makes a paladin not a paladin, is to set the campaign in a terrible LE society and I can see a CG paladin. A NG paladin doesn't make sense to me, it's hard to imagine a crusader for Neutrality (along the Law-Chaos axis; a crusader for a balance between good and evil makes more sense.)
As for the main pitfall; I'd say that's finding yourself agreeing with Kelsey too much ;)
If the lawful alignment requirement is removed, adhering to a code of honor doesn’t really make sense anymore. And without the code a paladin isn’t really a paladin in the assumed setting. ‘A deity chose this person to be a paladin why?’ ‘They are automatically well respected and trusted why?’ ‘The church has thier back above all others why?’ Ect.
Ignoring the setting issue, without a code of conduct the class will be overpowered in many, if not all, games. Paladins get so many powerful perks to balance the fact that they can’t use highly effective, but ‘dirty’ or ‘dishonorable’ or ‘cheating’ tactics. Take away the code and a paladin running with a party of rogues, wizards, ect. is comparable to a gnoll running with humans, gnomes, ect. (assuming a setting where gnolls are treated the same as humans for RP purposes).
To get around these issues, I suggest writing up a code of conduct for chaotic paladins and still not allowing them to be neutral on the chaos/law axis. Maybe they can’t make oaths, sign agreements, or follow orders - or something of that nature. Sure, following a strict code is lawful, but if that code requires chaotic behavior I think it works.
My suggestion would be not to replace lawful powers, just strip them. Its a minor drawback with playing a nonlawful paladin
Seriously? You think it's more reasonable for someone to crusade for strictly balancing good acts with offsetting evil acts than for someone to crusade for limited government but not anarchy?Is there a great big whole in your globe between Canada and Mexico?
Anarchy and chaos are NOT synonyms. Lack of hierarchies is a chaotic trait, but collective societies (rather than individualistic) are a lawful trait. Anarchism would probably be in the neutral part of the spectrum, with authoritarian socialism on the lawful edge and free-market capitalism on the chaotic end.
|
Chaotic Code of Conduct?
A set of Taboos.
Plenty of chaotic societies in RPG-land have them already. See almost any barbarian society for examples.
Mining the cultures and deities of the setting and combining that with the huge emphasis on being Good, as Good as any paladin, can net some taboos that are very interesting, flavorful, and restricting in their own way.
|
Anarchy and chaos are NOT synonyms.
Actually they are.
Main Entry: anarchy [an-er-kee]
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: lawlessness; absence of government
Synonyms: chaos, confusion, disorder, disorganization, disregard, hostility, misrule, mob rule, nihilism, nongovernment, rebellion, reign of terror, revolution, riot, turmoil, unrest
Antonyms: lawfulness, order, rule
Roget's 21st Century Thesaurus, Third Edition
Copyright © 2012 by the Philip Lief Group.
Anarchy and chaos are NOT synonyms.Actually they are.
Not when discussing states of society/government, which atarlost was in his post, just like how "theory" and "guess" arent synonyms in physics.
I have allowed paladins to be any alignment (huge mistake), any extreme alignment such as LG LE CG CE (less cumbersome but was still difficult). I realized that paladins must be lawful, that is what differentiates them from barbarians, cavaliers, fighters, and rangers. I have since opened it up to any lawful, with great affect. I think the biggest pitfall of Paladin's lies in most players unwillingness to actually be lawful. It is a challenge, but that is the point. If they want to be reckless, let them be bards.
It depends on the group. I overlook how lawful a paladin has to be depending on the deity. As for the antipaladins I prefer them to be NE or LE, LE preferably. I can't get my head around some CE guy agreeing to follow rules like that.
Being an NG or CG Paladin doesn't have to be easy. You can challenge their virtue and dedication without ever bringing law into the mix. Especially CG. A chaotic Paladin can be just as hard as a lawful Paladin. Remember that they can't support the law any more than a lawful Paladin can violate it. NG isn't as bad, but they always have to be a shining exemplar of all that is good, and that doesn't have to be made easy.
|
|
I don't think it's so much the lawful goodness that is important but the strict adherence to a code. Make a strict code that a Paladin must follow, or they fall. Remove the alignment restriction, and observe the number of chaotic good paladins that make it. Congratulate the ones that do, but there may not be very many. Following a strict code will just appeal to a lawful creature more than a chaotic one.
I don't think it's so much the lawful goodness that is important but the strict adherence to a code. Make a strict code that a Paladin must follow, or they fall. Remove the alignment restriction, and observe the number of chaotic good paladins that make it. Congratulate the ones that do, but there may not be very many. Following a strict code will just appeal to a lawful creature more than a chaotic one.
This. All you need for a strict code is to hold them to exacting standards of goodness. Goodness doesn't have to be easy.
When they aren't LG, the choices are faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar less tough.
That is highly dependent on the GM.
|
|
Indeed. All you need is a code enforcing a standard of 'my actions must be towards a good end' and see how well they do.
What happened to acting with honour and not lying, cheating or stealing? Protecting the innocent and punishing the guilty?
Remember:
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no death, there is the Force.
Indeed. All you need is a code enforcing a standard of 'my actions must be towards a good end' and see how well they do.What happened to acting with honour and not lying, cheating or stealing? Protecting the innocent and punishing the guilty?
I contend that a chaotic good character can do these things.
I don't argue that point, Mergy.