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I'm smitten with the idea of having a familiar instead of forming a bond with an item. As a numbers guy I've been trying to understand how to exactly calculate the skill points for my familiar. Unfortunately, I cannot reverse engineer the Compsognathus and Lyrakien skill stats.
For example, (1) how are a Compsognathus' perception and swim skills calculated? (2) Does a Lyrakien instead use an outsider's class skills (Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.) instead of the default stated in the "animal" familiar section? (3) How would a Lyrakien's skill bonuses be parsed?
Here is some information I have to work with:
Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.
Tiny: +2 AC/Attack, -2CMB/CMD, +4 fly, +8 stealth
Small animals like these use Dexterity to modify Climb and Swim checks.
So you're trying to figure out how the familiars are made to custom build your own?
Compsognathus has swim speed which grants it +8 bonus to Swim checks. With -1 for Strength it comes down to 7. Perception is it's class skill (1 rank +3 class modifier) coming to a total of 4.
I vaguely recall rule about using Dex for Climb/Swim but I don't remember in which book and where it was exactly stated? Can you tell me in which book and what place it was exactly placed as I can't find it for my own use.
Why would Lyrakien use animal class skills? It is outsider so it uses outsider class skills, including 4 skills that it can select as class skills.
Acrobatics: 3 ranks, +3 class, +4 Dex = +10
Bluff: 3 ranks, +3 class, +5 Cha = +11
Diplomacy: 3 ranks, +3 class, +5 Cha = +11
Fly: +4 Dex, +8 maneuverability, +4 size = +16 (there is pink note to the right about error in calculation it's Fly bonus)
Knowledge: 3 ranks, +3 class, +2 Int = +8
Perception: 3 ranks, +3 class, +3 Wis = +9
Perform: 3 ranks, +3 class, +5 Cha = +11
Spellcraft: 3 ranks, +2 Int = +5
Stealth: 3 ranks, +3 class, +4 Dex, +8 size = +18
When you get Lyrakien as a familiar you replace value marked as ranks with ranks possessed by your arcanist if higher. Which will be 99% Spellcraft (7 ranks for a 7 level arcanist is a must), probably Knowledge (unless you decided to get Lyrakien with different Knowledge than you to spread access to various skills).
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I'm smitten with the idea of having a familiar instead of forming a bond with an item. As a numbers guy I've been trying to understand how to exactly calculate the skill points for my familiar. Unfortunately, I cannot reverse engineer the Compsognathus and Lyrakien skill stats.
For example, (1) how are a Compsognathus' perception and swim skills calculated? (2) Does a Lyrakien instead use an outsider's class skills (Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.) instead of the default stated in the "animal" familiar section? (3) How would a Lyrakien's skill bonuses be parsed?
I see no reason why the paragraph on familiar skills would not apply:
Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.
So your improved familiar would lose its innate class skill bonuses and gain those listed above, IMO. As far as skill ranks, you can reverse engineer the number of ranks the creature has in its skills, and use either that number or yours, whichever is higher.
When I ran an arcane trickster with a faerie dragon, I noted the skills for the familiar like this:(assume 16th level here,max ranks)
Acrobatics 3(16) +3 Dex +3 class = +22
Bluff 0(16) +3 Cha = +19
etc.
I see no reason why the paragraph on familiar skills would not apply:
Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.So your improved familiar would lose its innate class skill bonuses and gain those listed above, IMO. As far as skill ranks, you can reverse engineer the number of ranks the creature has in its skills, and use either that number or yours, whichever is higher.
This feature specificially referes to animal familiars. This is the reason why this paragraph would not apply.
Lyrakien is not animal and thus bolded part cannot be fulfilled (type there refers to kind of animal and not animal type as a whole, as animal type as a whole do not have skill ranks, only individual animal kinds have them).
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This feature specificially referes to animal familiars. This is the reason why this paragraph would not apply.
Lyrakien is not animal and thus bolded part cannot be fulfilled (type there refers to kind of animal and not animal type as a whole, as animal type as a whole do not have skill ranks, only individual animal kinds have them).
By that logic the outsider familiars would not use the master's skill ranks either, as that is part of the very same sentence you reference.
Use masters ranks + familiar's stats or the familiars listed skill bonus, whichever is higherr.
By that logic the outsider familiars would not use the master's skill ranks either, as that is part of the very same sentence you reference.
I looked at that more and now I think that my previous quoted statement is irrelevant for the matter. My bad.
What is important is that sentence you quoted:
Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.
does not removes other skills from class skill list of the familiar. It only guarantees that listed skills are class skills.
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So you're trying to figure out how the familiars are made to custom build your own?
I wasn't clear, I'm sorry. A Wizard's familiar advances based on the master's BAB, hit points, base saves, skill ranks, etc. The only confusion I have with this process is parsing where a creature's skill bonuses are coming from. For example, why does the Compsognathus have a +7 bonus to Swim checks? Shouldn't it be 13 or more? [ ? (ranks) + 2 (dex mod) + 3 (class skill) + 8 (swim speed)]
I vaguely recall rule about using Dex for Climb/Swim but I don't remember in which book and where it was exactly stated? Can you tell me in which book and what place it was exactly placed as I can't find it for my own use.
It is supposedly in Bestiary I. I've looked through and cannot locate it without a PDF version, if it is there. There are references all over these forums to it though.
Bestiary page 131 in the familiar section, last sentence of the introductory paragraph.
I would not think it applies to most improved familiars though.
EDIT: I just found the rule. If I refreshed thread earlier I would save time by reading cwslyclgh post.
Presented here are the base animal statistics for all of the most commonly used familiars—of course, these statistics can also be used for normal animals as well. Small animals like these use Dexterity to modify Climb and Swim checks.
So it isn't a generic rule about all small or smaller animals but very vague due to "like these" qualifier. Other tiny animals outside of familiar section either have specific rule in their racial modifers part or don't have climb/swim skills listed.
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So, a Compsognathus' skills are calculated outside the best bestiary's statement on familiars, "Small animals like these use Dexterity to modify Climb and Swim checks."? I can accept that.
Drejk, I really appreciate all your clarifications. After reading through your posts again and working through the math on my own I feel like I have a better grasp now. All the numbers seem to match up. A lyrakien should have 24 skill ranks to invest based on outsider type, +2 int mod and 3 HD. Sure enough this checks out.
However, and I might be mistaken on this, a Lyrakien has Knowledge (any) as one of its 4 additional class skills. Meaning that Knowledge (planes) is still a class skill, but with no ranks. If a master has Knowledge (planes) ranks this activates the Lyrakien's class skill bonus. It would make sense to use (any) for any knowledge, but (planes). This also seems to be the case for Sense Motive. It is an outsider class skill, but the Lyrakien has taken no ranks in it. If the master has ranks then it should activate the class skill bonus. Does this seem reasonable?
My info/calculations:
Outsider skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
Total skill ranks 24 = 18 (6 base * 3 HD) + 6 (2 int mod * 3 HD)
Lyrakien bestiary skills Acrobatics +10, Bluff +11, Diplomacy +11, Fly +16 (+12), Knowledge (any one) +8, Perception +9, Perform (any one) +11, Spellcraft +5, Stealth +18
Lyrakien stats Str 5 (-3), Dex 19 (4), Con 12 (1), Int 14 (2), Wis 17 (3), Cha 20 (5)
Acrobatics: 3 (ranks) + 4 (mod) + 3 (class) = 10
Bluff: 3 (ranks) + 5 (mod) + 3 (class) = 11
Craft*: 0 (ranks)
Diplomacy: 3 (ranks) + 5 (mod) + 3 (class) = 11
Fly: 4 (mod) + 4 (size) + 8 (maneuverability) = 16
Knowledge (any): 3 (ranks) + 2 (mod) + 3 (class) = 8
Knowledge (planes)*: 0 (ranks)
Perception: 3 (ranks) + 3 (mod) + 3 (class) = 9
Perform (any): 3 (ranks) + 5 (mod) + 3 (class) = 11
Sense Motive*: 0 (ranks) + 3 (mod) + (class skill not applied; no ranks) = 3
Spellcraft: 3 (ranks) + 2 (mod) = 5
Stealth: 3 (ranks) + 4 (mod) + 3 (class) + 8 (size) = 18
Total Ranks: 24
* A class skill, but with no ranks invested.
Bold An outsider class skill.
Italics One of 4 bonus class skills determined by theme.
So, a Compsognathus' skills are calculated outside the best bestiary's statement on familiars, "Small animals like these use Dexterity to modify Climb and Swim checks."? I can accept that.
It seems so. I guess that either designers forgot about that rule or decided that +8 racial bonus for compso swim speed is enough.
However, and I might be mistaken on this, a Lyrakien has Knowledge (any) as one of its 4 additional class skills. Meaning that Knowledge (planes) is still a class skill, but with no ranks. If a master has Knowledge (planes) ranks this activates the Lyrakien's class skill bonus. It would make sense to use (any) for any knowledge, but (planes). This also seems to be the case for Sense Motive. It is an outsider class skill, but the Lyrakien has taken no ranks in it. If the master has ranks then it should activate the class skill bonus. Does this seem reasonable?
I have no idea how this should work actually work. The +3 class skill bonus in PF replaces the 1st level x4 multiplier and rank limit of 3+level for class skills. So, 3.5 familiar using it's master's familiar ranks in skill that is not the master's class skill would have lower total skill bonus (because the master would have 1/2 x 3+level ranks at best). It hadn't occured on my sessions yet so I haven't decided how I would resolve this question. My party's witch's familiar only rolls for now are Perception checks. Maybe in future it will be an issue.
My info/calculations:
That's my calculations as well. Unless I missed something and made error in my first post.
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I looked at that more and now I think that my previous quoted statement is irrelevant for the matter. My bad.
What is important is that sentence you quoted:
Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.does not removes other skills from class skill list of the familiar. It only guarantees that listed skills are class skills.
I can see the logic behind that reasoning.