Goblin Squad Member
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This idea came up deep in another thread, and I thought I'd raise it here to see if there was a strong reaction to it either way.
Some of the benefits I see with doing this are:
1. It makes characters accountable for their actions, because they can always be tracked down and retaliated against, rather than being able to log off and hide until the heat is off.
2. It opens up the possibility of having PCs do something useful while the player is offline, such as contribute to building structures, or crafting goods to keep a warehouse stocked up to pre-defined inventory levels.
I can see where this idea came from, but it creates far more problems than it would solve.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do like the idea of characters not just vanishing when they log off, but that would create a lot of server trouble... unless they just switched to an AI script, becoming effectively an NPC? And/or you could have your character start working on a crafting/building project, and leave them working on it. Maybe logging off in a library or study area would boost skill training? No, wait, anything that boosts skill training is almost guaranteed to be a bad idea; too many players will complain, for good reason, if they fall behind.
That said, anyone else read Mogworld, the fantasy book written by Yahtzee?
With a world as big as this one is going to be, having to travel back to a safe zone everytime you have to log out will be more of a pain than any enjoyment you would get.
This idea = loss of subs.
This was a huge concern.
Plus, any benefit you can think of for characters persisting after logout don't really require your character. It could be done by "hirelings" and you don't have to risk your own hide.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would absolutely love the ability to keep my character in-world, doing something productive, even while I was logged off, and I'd be fine with it being optional.
One thing I really think would be great, because sitting in front of my computer for hours on end clicking one thing after another to craft is extremely boring, would be for me to be able to define the various stock levels I want to stock up to in my workshop, and to be able to use on-hand resources to meet those while I'm offline.
Having my character study local lore at a library would be a great option too, although I imagine that wouldn't play well with the Skill Progression.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Long term character persistance is problematic from a number of standpoints.
I actualy played an MMO that had exactly that mechanic for awhile... Starquest Online....check it out if you want to see some of the issues with that mechanic in action.
The basic problem is simply just crowding.... this especialy becomes excaserbated if they allow some sort of FTP option...since you can't really tell what accounts are ACTIVE anymore.
Imagine every character ever created in an MMO persisting on the map...50% of them on Main street in the starting city.
Imagine being a new player and logging into an MMO to try it out...and 95% of the "Players" you encounter are really just "zombies" who stand in place and won't talk or interact with you in any way...don't even react to whats happening around them.
I think you can quickly see the notion becomes unworkable.
Now having characters persist for a short time after logout...particularly if logout is not in a "safe spot" (i.e. Inn, player dwelling, etc) is not a bad idea and can help counter some of the exploits players can try to pull revolving "logging" to get out of unpleasant situations.
Maybe the long term character persistance can be not with the player model, but only like a "status"
maybe i can explain better. I've logged out, but, like forlarren said, i can offer my PG as a mason.
if someone check a construction, he will see "neothanos, someone else and someone else too are working here as masons"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think you can quickly see the notion becomes unworkable.
Nope.
... 95% of the "Players" you encounter are really just "zombies" who stand in place and won't talk or interact with you in any way...don't even react to whats happening around them.
I am a very strong proponent of it being impossible to differentiate between PCs and NPCs unless the player does something an NPC obviously can't. So, the scenario you describe is exactly the scenario you see with NPCs just standing around like zombies and won't interact with your or what's happening around them.
As for players being on indefinitely, I would imagine the typical Tuesday Morning Restarts would keep that from being an actual problem...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am a very strong proponent of it being impossible to differentiate between PCs and NPCs unless the player does something an NPC obviously can't. So, the scenario you describe is exactly the scenario you see with NPCs just standing around like zombies and won't interact with your or what's happening around them.As for players being on indefinitely, I would imagine the typical Tuesday Morning Restarts would keep that from being an actual problem...
I'm not sure where you are drawing the "Tuesday Morning Restarts" reference from but I can assure you it's not a common phenomenon accross MMO's...maybe there is one particular MMO that you are used to playing that does that.
With modern technology, especialy if they are going with a single-shard, it is highly unlikely that they'll be using a single server model anyway. It's likely that it'll be a cluster of servers that are behind a director and presented as a single logical device (either that or maybe even a cloud services distributed computing model). Theoritcally there is no need to ever have the server "restart" under that model...since the director handles individual machines coming online or offline and routes traffic accordingly. Outside of a major update to the server code (or something falling apart at the network level) there is no reason to take the service offline.
In any event, characters location, and status is going to be stored on-disk rather then just in volatile RAM..so it's not a given that a reboot/restart actualy "removes characters from the world". In order to save resources...most world objects typicaly wouldn't be in RAM anyway, until the system estimated that they were about to be interacted with (i.e. a player moved into the area). You would need to create some specific functionality to take characters "offline" anyway.
From a user experience perspective....it pretty much sucks not being able to find other people to interact with. Very few people want to play an MMO just to feel like they are playing alone. If 99% of the "people" in the world are non-responsive and unable to interact with them...the world is likely to feel "lifeless" and hollow to the player and they'll just quit. Games that where "botting" is prevelant & widespread face similar problems.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From a user experience perspective....it pretty much sucks not being able to find other people to interact with. Very few people want to play an MMO just to feel like they...
That is true, while I like the thought of "players and NPCs may be indistinguishable in theory, in reality it won't be possible. Even if the worlds best AI was in order and the NPC moved, fought, and worked very much in the way a player does, one thing the AI's are a good distance away from, is being able to hold a conversation like a human. (and even if the tech hits that point, the licensing fees will make such technology impractical for a low/mid budget company.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure where you are drawing the "Tuesday Morning Restarts" reference from but I can assure you it's not a common phenomenon accross MMO's...maybe there is one particular MMO that you are used to playing that does that.
Eve Online restarts their server(s) every morning.
WoW, SWTOR, LOTRO, Age of Empires Online, and I'm sure many others restart their servers and do weekly maintenance every Tuesday morning, at least to my knowledge.I haven't played every MMO out there, but every single one I've ever played has followed this pattern.
I'd love to never have to worry about being kicked off the server. I usually try to play for 30 minutes or so in the mornings before I go off to work while I'm drinking coffee. It's been a consistent frustration when I can't do that because of "weekly maintenance".
it's not a given that a reboot/restart actualy "removes characters from the world".
It's hardly a given that it wouldn't, irrespective of your supposition that inactive accounts would gradually fill up all the space in the world.
From a user experience perspective....it pretty much sucks not being able to find other people to interact with.
How is this remotely relevant? Either the player's character is online, and is indistinguishable from an NPC, with whom players are generally accustomed to not being able to interact, or the player is offline, and unable to interact any way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... while I like the thought of "players and NPCs may be indistinguishable in theory, in reality it won't be possible. Even if the worlds best AI was in order and the NPC moved, fought, and worked very much in the way a player does, one thing the AI's are a good distance away from, is being able to hold a conversation like a human.
Nobody expects an NPC to appear to be a PC. The point is to allow PCs who so choose to appear indistinguishable from an NPC.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Eve Online restarts their server(s) every morning.
WoW, SWTOR, LOTRO, Age of Empires Online, and I'm sure many others restart their servers and do weekly maintenance every Tuesday morning, at least to my knowledge.
I play LOTRO (or did) and I never experienced what you are describing. I've seen my server go down once in a blue moon...but nothing like on a regular basis. I'm sure some service providers may do that, but it definately is not universal.....and once you move away from the server = single physical device model there really isn't much of a technical neccessity for it. With modern technology, a decent enough budget and a well designed infrastructure there is no reason a service provider can't get very close to 100% uptime.
If you need to do an update/maintenance to a server, you just mark it as going "offline" to the director...the director reroutes traffic to the other servers in the cluster... you do your thing...and bring it back online when your done and the director starts routing traffic to it again. Depending upon your specific implimentation...a user may not even notice a slow down.
But this point is academic, as you either have some method from removing player objects from the world after a certain amount of inactivity (whether that's purposefully done or a side effect of a "server reboot" is irrelevent) or you don't. If you don't....then you are going to end up with 20,000 player objects occupying 100 square feet of Main street in your starting towns soon enough.
How is this remotely relevant? Either the player's character is online, and is indistinguishable from an NPC, with whom players are generally accustomed to not being able to interact, or the player is offline, and unable to interact any way.
It's relevent because in MMO's most players want other actual human beings to interact with. If they have great difficulty in finding other live human beings because 99% of the other "people" they see in the game and try to interact with are non-responsive (irrespective of whether they are NPC mobs or PC "bot's" who's players aren't online at the time) then the world is going to seem pretty "lifeless" and "souless" and they are likely to get frustrated and quit.
After the 9,999 time in a row that a player runs upto some character that they see and says "Hello, can I talk with you?"....only to get no response...trust me, most people are going to quit trying.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they have great difficulty in finding other live human beings because 99% of the other "people" they see in the game and try to interact with are non-responsive...
I think I finally see the point you're driving at.
Are you concerned that the sheer number of offline player characters will dwarf the number of NPCs players are accustomed to seeing in an area?
I suppose that's a valid concern, but I would be surprised if it were the case.
As for concerns about impact on servers, I know EQ had a system where you could keep your character online in an auction environment even when you were logged off. I don't think that was too big of a challenge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon,
I'm not even sure what you are hoping to accomplish with this that can't be addressed by other mechanisms that aren't subject to the same drawbacks.
- The characters being accountable for thier actions by having them subject to attack while they are offline is WAY more likely to be exploited by griefers and others to harm people then it is as a vehicle for just retribution.
It's one thing to not let people be able to logoff in the middle of combat in order to avoid a beat-down. Ryan already posted that they've got a mechanic that deals with that.
It's another thing for every miscreant to know that if you want to murder members of a rival guild all you need to do is wait until 3:00 AM on a weeknight when most of it's players are asleep and go knock off thier characters when they can't defend themselves.
- The I want to avoid sitting in front of my computer for hours repetitively clicking on a button in order to craft stuff is simply addressed by NOT having such a mechanic in place in order to craft in the first place. Crafting/resource gathering should be a fun, interesting and interactive activity to do... not a boring 2nd job that players will want to "bot" in order to avoid. If a Developer can't make crafting/resource gathering a fun and engaging gameplay system in it's own right...then they can easly design a system that abstracts it (like Fallen Earth has)... where they click the "make this" button....run off and do some other fun activity (like adventuring) for a few hours while I real time timer ticks off...and then queue up another item to craft.
- The I want to do stuff like keep my store upto preset stocking levels can easly be handled by setting up some sort of "Contract" system and either having NPC's or PC's fill those contracts and automaticaly get paid for them.
- In terms of offline character advancement...you've ALREADY got offline skill learning...how much more then that do you want? Do you want to earn "Merit Badges" and Level Up offline as well?
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Well, you could always have the PCs persist like that for 24hrs and if the player doesn't log in again then the PC is removed. It gives the flavor and fun of the idea without 20k zombies milling around and if they make NPCs non-responsive then they deserve to have people find another game to play anyway.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I play LOTRO (or did) and I never experienced what you are describing.Really?
Yeah...and I've seen something like that maybe once every 4-6 months (i.e. "once in a blue moon.") It's not a regular weekly occurance.
It's also not something that is generaly neccesary using modern hosting archetecture.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah...and I've seen something like that maybe once every 4-6 months (i.e. "once in a blue moon.") It's not a regular weekly occurance.I play LOTRO (or did) and I never experienced what you are describing.Really?
You're absolutely right. I only counted 4 scheduled downtime notifications for the last 3 months.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not even sure what you are hoping to accomplish with this that can't be addressed by other mechanisms that aren't subject to the same drawbacks.You're absolutely right, there are definitely other ways to accomplish these goals.
I agree that these ideas can be addressed via other mechanics, but there are definently cool parts to this that could be interesting. Other methods have their drawbacks as well though.
Lets look at one issue this addresses and pro's and cons vs alternative options
1. Player functions as NPC guard for town.
Issues addressed: helps reduce towns weakness if attacked while players are offline
Alternative solution: Hire-able NPCs.
Pros: PC guards can be equiped to choice.
Cons: While the Player NPCs will likely not be as strong, they may face other consequences of being killed, and possibly damaged gear etc...
Pros of alternative: NPC guards may be able to be set at a higher ratio, IE 2 NPCs per human instead of 1.
Cons: Figuring out how to balance things so that they aren't instant wins when players are online, but also aren't too insignificant when too many players are offline.
There are definitely advantages and disadvantages to this idea. I would say this is one that could use discussion rather then outright dismissal.
Using WOW as an example,
I hate fishing, because it's boring. Now if I could fish without actually being present that'd be cool. Just plot the toon somewhere and hit "auto fish" then go about my day IRL. Because if the extremely boring mechanic i've never gotten fishing above 10 on any toon. I'd rather go adventuring then buy fish on the AH.
The same holds true for other farming. If I could drop my toon at a Loom, for example, then have him produce cloth without my direct assistance that'd be great. It should be slower than actually killing stuff for it, but it would be better than nothing. Perhaps toons can only perform auto-tasks for 24 hours at a time then you have to reclick it. That prevents someone from fishing 24/7 for six months. Of course bag space could easily solve this problem also.
My 2c
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In my opinion the ruler of a settlement (king, sheriff, duke, do not care here) should propose a list of work that are necessary for the well ongoing (not sure if this word is correct, sorry) of the village.
"Today Lord Pingu said that we need 48 mason, 13 carpenteers and 2 engraver for the construction of the armory."
"requirement: Mason= Strenght 12 or better (low level work). Carpenteer... etc etc
we'll pay 15 GP
or "need 78 farmers for today maintenance"
we'll pay 10 gp
if no one work as mason, however the construction is not halted (some png can work here, maybe slower)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Using WOW as an example,
I hate fishing, because it's boring. Now if I could fish without actually being present that'd be cool. Just plot the toon somewhere and hit "auto fish" then go about my day IRL. Because if the extremely boring mechanic i've never gotten fishing above 10 on any toon. I'd rather go adventuring then buy fish on the AH.
The same holds true for other farming. If I could drop my toon at a Loom, for example, then have him produce cloth without my direct assistance that'd be great. It should be slower than actually killing stuff for it, but it would be better than nothing. Perhaps toons can only perform auto-tasks for 24 hours at a time then you have to reclick it. That prevents someone from fishing 24/7 for six months. Of course bag space could easily solve this problem also.
My 2c
I get that....I'm just having trouble understanding the motivation to devote Development Resources to support your character being able to do those boring activites while you are not online as opposed to devoting resources them to make such activities "non-boring" in the first place?
As a Player (or as Developer for that matter), Why would you want the Developer spending valuable resources to figure out different ways for you to AVOID playing the game?
From a Developers perspective it's FAR, FAR easier and less expensive in terms of resources to simply figure out a way to have you character advance skills/abilities while NOT present in the gameworld (i.e. no player object appears on the map for other players to interact with) then it is to automate your characters behavior in game while your not online.....and it avoids many side-effects as well.
I also have to question if "fishing" and "farming" are not enjoyable activites for you to do in the game.... what is your motivation for wanting your character to do them at all (whether offline or online)?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Using WOW as an example,I hate fishing, because it's boring. Now if I could fish without actually being present that'd be cool. Just plot the toon somewhere and hit "auto fish" then go about my day IRL. Because if the extremely boring mechanic i've never gotten fishing above 10 on any toon. I'd rather go adventuring then buy fish on the AH.
The same holds true for other farming. If I could drop my toon at a Loom, for example, then have him produce cloth without my direct assistance that'd be great. It should be slower than actually killing stuff for it, but it would be better than nothing. Perhaps toons can only perform auto-tasks for 24 hours at a time then you have to reclick it. That prevents someone from fishing 24/7 for six months. Of course bag space could easily solve this problem also.
My 2c
This is why I like the crafting in SWTOR.
I never tradeskill in an MMO, and I have a cap level synthweaver already.You send you companions on missions to gather resources, farm rares and to craft. By level 50 you can send 5 out at a time.
Brilliant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is why I like the crafting in SWTOR.
SWTOR definitely figured out that standing around clicking the mouse over and over for hours wasn't fun, and I applaud them for that. I think they could've gone a lot further in fact. Instead of having to click each mission, it would be great to set aside a certain amount of money and a mission type (Grade 2 Medical Supplies, for example) and let the companion run those missions repeatedly until bag space filled up or funding ran out.
Also, SWTOR still has you right-clicking each item as it's made (unless you have enough mats not to worry about it, which is less likely when you're Reverse Engineering blues), which is quite time consuming.
And the nail in the coffin of SWTOR crafting, in my opinion, is that you outlevel any particular tier of crafted gear so quickly it's almost not worth crafting it.
But they definitely understood why standing around clicking something over and over (or running around clicking something over and over) is utterly boring, and that most people only put up with it because it was necessary in order for them to do the other things they wanted to do.
I really think the player-base is ready for most, if not all, of the tedium to be taken out of the game. We've done it too many times already. Heck, I leveled up multiple max-level crafters in Vanguard!
Speaking of Vanguard, that was the most recent attempt I've seen to make crafting something other than just standing around clicking a button over and over, because you really had to pay attention to the buttons youc licked. There may be some way to make fishing/farming "fun", but in my opinion, that would be a lot harder than simply removing the tedium by letting it happen while the player is offline.
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Personally I don't think perform skills or such while offline is neccessary if the game is made right such things should be minigames that are entertaining or just autodone without you waiting on them but having the PCs stay as gaurds for a town, mine, or other area is definatly interesting and cool though having such PCs marked as offline is a must, I would hate for a new friend to think I brushing them off when I'm really just offline.
Would still keep a time limit based on play time though to prevent a bunch of never used alts from constantly gaurding an area. Maybe they stay as long or twice as long as the charater was active.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that these ideas can be addressed via other mechanics, but there are definently cool parts to this that could be interesting. Other methods have their drawbacks as well though.Lets look at one issue this addresses and pro's and cons vs alternative options
1. Player functions as NPC guard for town.
Issues addressed: helps reduce towns weakness if attacked while players are offline
Alternative solution: Hire-able NPCs.
Pros: PC guards can be equiped to choice.
Cons: While the Player NPCs will likely not be as strong, they may face other consequences of being killed, and possibly damaged gear etc...Pros of alternative: NPC guards may be able to be set at a higher ratio, IE 2 NPCs per human instead of 1.
Cons: Figuring out how to balance things so that they aren't instant wins when players are online, but also aren't too insignificant when too many players are offline.There are definitely advantages and disadvantages to this idea. I would say this is one that could use discussion rather then outright dismissal.
The PC Guard thing strikes me as problematic from a number of standpoints.
1) It's a reasonably straightforward task to program an A.I. that can behave semi-effectively in combat when you can know exactly what equipment and abilities the mob they A.I. is controling has.
In order to do the PC thing you would need to create an ADAPTIVE A.I. that was sophisticated enough to handle whatever equipment Johnny happaned to be using at that time, along with whatever combination of skills and abilities Johnny had....and do the same thing for Floyd who might have a completely different skill/class/ability setup. Given 11 different classes that can be anywhere from 1-20 and exist in any combination in a PC along with likely some variation in abilities within the same class...and god knows how much variation in equipment types... I wonder exactly how you'd approach that?
I know Developers are making alot of progress with more sophisticated and adaptable A.I.'s....and it probably is possible to pull something like that off. However, it strikes me that you are going to be burning quite alot of Development resources to do it in a manner that even approaches reasonable effictiveness.
2) NPC mobs don't mind the job of standing around for months on end doing boring guard duty. They don't have Unions, they don't get holiday's or vacations or the opportunity to trade jobs. So what happens when you get a whole bunch of Player Guards that say..."Hey, it's Presidents Day...I'm off work...I want to be playing PFO and adventuring out in the wilds...not having my character stand around doing Guard duty while I'm offline". Does the towns guard force get shrunk in half just because people want to play that day?
What about when they want to move thier characters to some other town or location....or they want to log-off far away from that town.
3) Again I'm trying to see what you are actualy gaining by having (offline) PC guards as opposed to NPC's...what are you trying to achieve that can't be handled with NPC's instead?
If we are talking about the level of power or equipment availble to the Guards....what abilities/equipment NPC's get is ENTIRELY in control of the Developers... They could make them invincible if they wanted. If they wanted the players to have some input into what a Town's guards had access to (i.e. make it a gameplay element)...it's not hard to create a system that allows the Players to "hire" different NPC troop types as guards (i.e. We're going to pay for 20 "Crossbowmen" and 10 "Veteran Pikemen" as garrision for our city...how about yours?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I don't think perform skills or such while offline is neccessary if the game is made right such things should be minigames that are entertaining or just autodone without you waiting on them...
I'd be very happy with either of those solutions.
... having such PCs marked as offline is a must, I would hate for a new friend to think I brushing them off when I'm really just offline.
Definitely.
Would still keep a time limit based on play time though to prevent a bunch of never used alts from constantly gaurding an area. Maybe they stay as long or twice as long as the charater was active.
I expect there will be fairly regular "scheduled maintenance" when the servers get reset, but even if there's not it would certainly make sense to have player characters become unproductive, or even disappear completely, after some period of time.
One other advantage of having player characters online at all times would be the ease of interacting with your own alts. Shared Bank storage is nice, but for some reason it's always fairly tightly rationed. I've always thought it would be really great to be able to access an alt's inventory directly.
In fact, being able to access up-to-date information about other characters, whether they're you're own alts, or just other characters who've shared a link with you, would be nice. I'm not sure that PFO will have dropped recipes, but the concept could undoubtedly hold for other things too: Imagine finding a dropped recipe and being able to check your friends' information to see who, if anyone, needed it. Or being able to see for yourself what materials would be required to craft the item you want, so you can gather them all together before you ask a crafter to make something for you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Using WOW as an example,I hate fishing, because it's boring. Now if I could fish without actually being present that'd be cool. Just plot the toon somewhere and hit "auto fish" then go about my day IRL. Because if the extremely boring mechanic i've never gotten fishing above 10 on any toon. I'd rather go adventuring then buy fish on the AH.
The same holds true for other farming. If I could drop my toon at a Loom, for example, then have him produce cloth without my direct assistance that'd be great. It should be slower than actually killing stuff for it, but it would be better than nothing. Perhaps toons can only perform auto-tasks for 24 hours at a time then you have to reclick it. That prevents someone from fishing 24/7 for six months. Of course bag space could easily solve this problem also.
My 2c
This is why I like the crafting in SWTOR.
I never tradeskill in an MMO, and I have a cap level synthweaver already.
You send you companions on missions to gather resources, farm rares and to craft. By level 50 you can send 5 out at a time.
Brilliant.
So I'm trying to understand what that does for you aside from giving you a line on your character sheet that says "Level 50 Synthweaver"....
Or what would be different from just having the Dev's create a button in the U.I. that says "Make me a Level 50 Synthweaver"...let you click it and...Boom!.. you get promoted to Level 50 Synthweaver...
What's the gameplay factor that's involved with that which attracts you as a player?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The PC Guard thing strikes me as problematic...
You don't say...
I'm trying to see what you are actualy gaining by having (offline) PC guards as opposed to NPC's.
1. RP, since the characters don't just poof out of existence when the player logs off.
2. Reduction in tedium.
3. Utility, by having the Offline PCs perform helpful tasks.
You can (and I'm sure you will) find flaws with this particular solution for any of those goals, but if you're honest about trying to understand what I'm hoping for, there is at least some of it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... what would be different from just having the Dev's create a button in the U.I. that says "Make me a Level 50 Synthweaver"...let you click it and...Boom!.. you get promoted to Level 50 Synthweaver...
You mean the way PFO will have a button on the UI that says "Make me better at using my sword" (or whatever that particular skill will be named) and then, after some time of you not doing anything at all, boom! you're better at using your sword?
I also have to question if "fishing" and "farming" are not enjoyable activites for you to do in the game.... what is your motivation for wanting your character to do them at all (whether offline or online)?
I definitely see your point. The only reason I even entertain fishing, for example, is because I need the mats for something else that I do want.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One other advantage of having player characters online at all times would be the ease of interacting with your own alts. Shared Bank storage is nice, but for some reason it's always fairly tightly rationed. I've always thought it would be really great to be able to access an alt's inventory directly.
Dev's PURPOSEFULLY tend to put limitations on that because it reduces the need for player interpendence and interaction as well as hampers people from twinking out alts (or even Mains) by having ready access to all abilities/skills/classes/trades in the game without interacting with other players (who usualy demand something in return for thier services, unlike Alts).
It'd be latgerly trivial to build in systems that allowed for greater interactivity with Alts. Most Dev's avoid doing so as a DESIGN CHOICE.
I'm not sure what Goblinworks stance on this is....but from what I've read in the blogs so far...I think they are likely to be unfavorable to anything that makes players more independant and less interdependant on other players.
PFO sounds like they intend it to be more oriented toward Group/Community play then Solo Play. I could be wrong, though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1) It's a reasonably straightforward task to program an A.I. that can behave semi-effectively in combat when you can know exactly what equipment and abilities the mob they A.I. is controling has.In order to do the PC thing you would need to create an ADAPTIVE A.I. that was sophisticated enough to handle whatever equipment Johnny happaned to be using at that time, along with whatever combination of skills and abilities Johnny had....and do the same thing for Floyd who might have a completely different skill/class/ability setup. Given 11 different classes that can be anywhere from 1-20 and exist in any combination in a PC along with likely some variation in abilities within the same class...and god knows how much variation in equipment types... I wonder exactly how you'd approach that?
I know Developers are making alot of progress with more sophisticated and adaptable A.I.'s....and it probably is possible to pull something like that off. However, it strikes me that you are going to be burning quite alot of Development resources to do it in a manner that even approaches reasonable effictiveness.
Perhaps the preferred skills could be set by the players, one thing to note NPC guard in either forms is not designed to replace players defending, it is meant to slow down and assist the defenders, possibly buy enough time for a proper defense or counter attack to be put into place.
2) NPC mobs don't mind the job of standing around for months on end doing boring guard duty. They don't have Unions, they don't get holiday's or vacations or the opportunity to trade jobs. So what happens when you get a whole bunch of Player Guards that say..."Hey, it's Presidents Day...I'm off work...I want to be playing PFO and adventuring out in the wilds...not having my character stand around doing Guard duty while I'm offline". Does the towns guard force get shrunk in half just because people want to play that day?What about when they want to move thier characters to some other town or location....or they want to log-off far away from that town.
Well it is entirely optional of whether you want your player on guard duty or not, with other potential functions it may even be set days, schedules etc... and yes there would be less mindless guards because now there are actually people capable of dealing serious pain to an invading army, NPC guards will never be half as good as real players no matter what.
3) Again I'm trying to see what you are actualy gaining by having (offline) PC guards as opposed to NPC's...what are you trying to achieve that can't be handled with NPC's instead?
If we are talking about the level of power or equipment availble to the Guards....what abilities/equipment NPC's get is ENTIRELY in control of the Developers... They could make them invincible if they wanted. If they wanted the players to have some input into what a Town's guards had access to (i.e. make it a gameplay element)...it's not hard to create a system that allows the Players to "hire" different NPC troop types as guards (i.e. We're going to pay for 20 "Crossbowmen" and 10 "Veteran Pikemen" as garrision for our city...how about yours?
Certainly, and I don't see it as an invalid option, the main perk of PCs forming the role of NPC guards, is the benefit that the amount of them increase when the amount of actual players is lowest, which actually allows some extent of scaling of how many can defend vs how many players aren't there. Just using arbitrary numbers here to represent effectiveness
NPC guards: Without players present we'll say a defense rating of 100
Half players online: 200
All players online: Defense rating of 300 (guards as 100, players as 200)
PC NPC guards: Players absent 150
50/50: 175
100% players: 200
Basically it means less of a variation, that simultaneously reduces the odds of being steamrolled in the hours that the main players are offline, while not making it so any match is a cakewalk during the hours they are. NPCs stay the same stregnth when your players are on to assist them and when they are not. While players as NPC guards, would be gone when the players are there to fight the battle instead.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... what would be different from just having the Dev's create a button in the U.I. that says "Make me a Level 50 Synthweaver"...let you click it and...Boom!.. you get promoted to Level 50 Synthweaver...You mean the way PFO will have a button on the UI that says "Make me better at using my sword" (or whatever that particular skill will be named) and then, after some time of you not doing anything at all, boom! you're better at using your sword?
I think you are misunderstanding the advancement system Ryan has described so far in his blog postings. That's not the way it works at all...
Offline Advancement applies to "skills". "Sword Skill" doesn't actualy make you better at using a sword....or do ANYTHING for your character at all directly?
What they do is unlock the opportunity to earn "Merit Badges", think of "Merit Badges" like Trait Advancement Feats in LOTRO (i.e. "Go out and kill 1000 orcs".) They are activities that you pursue in game until you've accomplished the predefined goal.
Having the appropriate combination of "Merit Badges" allows you to choose to advance a level in an adventuring class which grants you an ability (i.e. +1 to hit with a sword)...it's THAT not the "skill" which actualy makes your character better at something.
Note, it wasn't entirely clear to me from the blog posting, but I BELIEVE (I could be wrong on this) that the "Merit Badge" itself and not just the Level gives you some enhancement to your characters abilities. But the skill definately doesn't do anything other then unlock the opportunity to pursue "Merit Badges".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dev's PURPOSEFULLY tend to put limitations on that because it reduces the need for player interpendence and interaction...
That may well be their intention, although I don't recall ever reading any developer actually say that with respect to access to alts' inventories.
Where I have heard developers make this argument is with respect to limiting the number of different crafting professions a single character can have. And while that may well be their intention, I would argue that they have utterly failed to achieve their goal, because all it really does is encourage players to create alts to do the other crafting professions they can't do on their main. I would further argue that this contributes to the crash in player populations as players get sick of grinding up yet another character that they aren't really emotionally invested in.
I believe PFO has been clear that a single character will have access to all the crafting professions they want, as long as they spend the Skill Points to get better at them, so I'm not sure I agree with your assessment.
And even if they do have that intent, I am quite happy to voice my frustration with that intent, and ask them to please not erect arbitrary barriers to me doing the things I want to do, in the hopes that I will find it so frustrating to try to do myself that I will throw my hands up and ask someone else to do it for me.
I would much rather PFO use the carrot, rather than the stick, to get me to group and interact with other players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Onishi,
I'm getting a bit confused here...we're talking about A.I. controled PC Guards here correct?
That is...the Player is offline...not controling his character while on guard duty...the A.I. has taken over control of the players character in the game world?
In that case, the A.I controled PC Guards are just as "mindless" as the A.I. controled NPC Guards. In fact they are probably a good bit more so, since it's easier to program an A.I. to function effectively if you've reduced the number of variables (i.e. skills, abilities, equipment) it has to account for when determining how to react.
In terms of raw power....again it's totaly within the Dev's hands to determine how powerfull and well equiped any NPC guard is. They could make them 10 times more powerfull then the most powerfull Player in the game or 10 times less powerfull or anywhere in between. If they really wanted to do so...they could make them absolutely invincible and capable of "one shoting" any player in the game...and have them automaticaly hit on every attack.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think you are misunderstanding the advancement system Ryan has described...
No, I think I've got a pretty good handle on it.
What I was trying to do was demonstrate that your choice of language to describe what Kryzbyn was saying he liked about SWTOR was dismissive. There will always be people who feel you haven't "earned" the right to be a high-level crafter unless you have "paid your dues" by sitting through hours of tedium. That argument could be applied to the Eve/PFO Skill Progression system too, since it advances your character without your character having to actually do anything. (Please, let's not quibble about the definition of "advance".)
For my part, I want my game to be fun. If it's fun to advance my crafting through some mini-game, then that's awesome. But pretending that I have no business wanting to craft my gear unless I also want to sit through the tedium involved in building up my crafting skill is not constructive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... again it's totaly within the Dev's hands to determine how powerfull and well equiped any NPC guard is. They could make them 10 times more powerfull then the most powerfull Player in the game or 10 times less powerfull or anywhere in between.
GrumpyMel, pardon me for being blunt, but it seems like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
If this thread had started with something along the lines of "Why Offline PCs are the only viable option", then pointing out all the other possible ways to accomplish some of these goals might make sense. But that's not what happened.
Is it really that hard to find constructive things to say?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In that case, the A.I controled PC Guards are just as "mindless" as the A.I. controled NPC Guards. In fact they are probably a good bit more so, since it's easier to program an A.I. to function effectively if you've reduced the number of variables (i.e. skills, abilities, equipment) it has to account for when determining how to react.
Right I am not talking about the raw power level, or skill of the AI, both of those are controllable and tweakable for either one. What I am specifically focusing on is the fact that when the player and NPC guards are online then you have the full defensive resources of both, when the player is the NPC, only 1 is defending the city at a time.
the difference in power between 100 players + 100 NPCs vs 0 players + 100 NPCs is drastically larger then the power difference of
100 players vs 100 NPCs.
The difference is in the PC = NPC method, your non-player guard force scales down, based on how many players are actually online, which lessens the difference in your defense between 4am when most of your guild is asleep, vs 7PM when most of your guild is awake.
The point of this is to lower the odds of an endless ping pong match between say a guild of Australians next door to a guild of Americans. If the NPCs are strong enough to hold back an army durring your sleeping time, than no army is going to even pose anything resembling a threat when you are awake, and actually have your players on to defend.
Now yes this will be lessened by the players themselves intentionally recruiting cross timezone etc... But it is a potential advantage to a system like players as guards.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do like the idea of having players switch to an AI script when they log out, the problem is making that script versatile enough to deal with all possible player gearsets/skillsets/inventories. But that's already been discussed.
What if, when players log out in town, they can work as guard duty, but not directly. What if the NPC guards who are already there get buffs based on how many players are logged out "on guard duty"? (This is assuming that there are other things for logged-out players to be doing, like crafting, training, working a profession, etc.) For every, say, 5 logged-off players who have signed up for guard duty, the existing NPC guards get something like +20% health and +5% damage? Or, for each logged-out player, an extra NPC guard is spawned, at a power level similar to the player? Either way, the dev team doesn't have to write an AI script for the players, and there will be a significant difference between a town with no players on guard duty (a half-dozen NPCs of middling strength) and a town with 20 players logged out on guard duty (2 dozen guards, noticeably more powerful and better equipped, but still just NPC guards).
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Part of what I was thinking was that I would help in places where there are not many NPCs. Say my guild has just found a mine then we can log out and have our characters defend the area while we sleep, then we come the next day and continue building our mine and eventually hire NPC gaurds to strengthen our defenses against those other guilds who want our mine for themselves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No, I think I've got a pretty good handle on it.What I was trying to do was demonstrate that your choice of language to describe what Kryzbyn was saying he liked about SWTOR was dismissive. There will always be people who feel you haven't "earned" the right to be a high-level crafter unless you have "paid your dues" by sitting through hours of tedium. That argument could be applied to the Eve/PFO Skill Progression system too, since it advances your character without your character having to actually do anything. (Please, let's not quibble about the definition of "advance".)
For my part, I want my game to be fun. If it's fun to advance my crafting through some mini-game, then that's awesome. But pretending that I have no business wanting to craft my gear unless I also want to sit through the tedium involved in building up my crafting skill is not constructive.
No I'm not trying to be dismissive at all, I'm trying to understand to understand the game-play element that's being sought after by creating a system that essentialy avoids the player interacting with it?
If it's simply the ability to make the things that a 50th level crafter can make, then why go through all the Development effort of building an advancement system that gets the player there? Why not just grant that ability automaticaly from day one that the character is created?
I don't like overly "grindy" games either. I just don't see the purpose behind designing systems that you intend for the player to largely avoid interacting with. It strikes me as a waste of Development Resources.
The main game-play element behind advancement systems, as I understand it is to satisfy the "achiever" type player. The "achiever" derives a sense of satisfaction from accomplishing some task that requires effort to complete and recieving a reward/recognition for that accomplishment. I.E. A guy who finnishes a Marathon and gets a gold ribbon at then end of it as recognition. Creating a system that circumvents the effort required and you nullify the sense of accomplisment/satisfaction behind the reward. I.E. getting your gold ribbon by buying a box of cereal. Thus nullifying the game-play element.
The secondary game-play element behind advancement systems is to satisfy the "problem solver" type player. The "problem solver" type player derives satisfaction from figuring out effective strategies to achieve some goal or solve some problem. The goal itself isn't really important it's the act of devising the strategy that achieves it which is. Note that "problem solvers" don't neccesarly need "advancement systems" they just need problems to solve..."advancing to level 50" is just one type of potential problem. Again in this case, designing a system which the player largely avoids interacting with is removing the potential game-play element for the problem solver...as the problem no longer requires his input to solve.
Personaly, I'm not much of an "achiever" at all...although I am a good bit of a "problem solver". I'd have no problem with a game that featured no advancement system whatsoever. What I'm trying to figure out is the design rationale for putting one in that the players are largely NOT intended to interact with.
That's why TOR's crafting system baffles me a bit as a game design. Perhaps I'm missing something and there is some much deeper strategy/interactivity as to how the "companions" are assigned thier crafting missions?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The point of this is to lower the odds of an endless ping pong match between say a guild of Australians next door to a guild of Americans.
I think there will probably have to be additional safeguards in place to prevent this.
SWG I believe had set windows of time in which different bases could be attacked. For example, the base would only be vulnerable between 7PM and 10PM on Thursday. There is a benefit to this since everyone knows beforehand and can plan accordingly, and the forces involved will be as dense with actual players as possible.
Another idea would be to require the attacking force to erect siegeworks, and also require them to mount enough of an offense to accomplish pre-defined goals that would take a minimum of, for example, 3-days. Even if the attackers and defenders were never online at the same time, the attackers would have to do more damage during their attacks than the defenders could repair while they were online. In essence, the effects ratchet, where you do some damage today, then tomorrow you come back and try to repair as much damage on your side as possible while again inflicting as much damage as you can, and then again the next day, until eventually either the town falls or the siegeworks are destroyed. Obviously, there are a lot of details left to work out.
Or maybe there's enough of an inherent advantage to the defense that, for taking over towns like this, the best option would be to allow attackers to place a very expensive siegeworks which would allow them to pick a time between 48 and 72 hours later that they would be able to make their attack. The defenders would be notified of that time, giving them the option to marshal their forces for defense. There would definitely be some grumbling if Aussies made Yanks get up at 4 AM to defend, or worse if they required them to be there during the workday. I would imagine the fear of reprisal would be enough to keep this from being abused. Perhaps it would be necessary to require a force to already have some settlement of their own, that was effectively put on the line as well, before they could place siegeworks.
It's so fun to brainstorm like this :)