How does prestidigitation reduce Slight of hand? Last I recall it's only good for menial labor, not hiding your gear.
1. I would assume any wizard of 9th level or above would have overland flight active at minimum, which means you can't reach him to hit him in the face unless you've spent 54,000 gp on wings of flying just to keep up... and you're only expected to have 46,000 gp worth of gear at that level. Oops.
2. Again, your game is already distorted at 7th level, when the wizard is casting an extended rope trick to rest in, and breaks completely at 13th, when he sleeps in a magnificent mansion.
So what do you propose? Whittle casters down so that they can only do damage spells but no more powerful than what an optimized martial could do?
That means any raids on your camp and your normal routine is ruined and your rest counter restarts from zero. Tons of ways to mess with this.
Even provided that you can stage a raid, this is incorrect.
If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest in order to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells.
I stand corrected.
How does prestidigitation reduce Slight of hand? Last I recall it's only good for menial labor, not hiding your gear.
A DC 10 Sleight of Hand check lets you palm a coin-sized, unattended object. Performing a minor feat of legerdemain, such as making a coin disappear, also has a DC of 10 unless an observer is determined to note where the item went.
Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.
Both can be used to 'pull a coin out of your ear', amuse children and con a credulous observer.
The word prestidigitation itself means 'fingering coins'. While the spell does not replace the skill altogether, and the skill does not do everything that the spell does, both can have similar use.
Again I don't believe it to be broken (prestidigitation is my favourite 0-level spell), but it does illustrates that magic does override some use of the skill set, often without a skill check or a chance to fail.
'findel
Can I prestidigitate a hidden dagger or something?
Yes, but it looks crude and is fragile beyond usefulness. Still, you can.
;)
How does prestidigitation reduce Slight of hand? Last I recall it's only good for menial labor, not hiding your gear.A DC 10 Sleight of Hand check lets you palm a coin-sized, unattended object. Performing a minor feat of legerdemain, such as making a coin disappear, also has a DC of 10 unless an observer is determined to note where the item went.Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.Both can be used to 'pull a coin out of your ear', amuse children and con a credulous observer.
The word prestidigitation itself means 'fingering coins'. While the spell does not replace the skill altogether, and the skill does not do everything that the spell does, both can have similar use.
Again I don't believe it to be broken (prestidigitation is my favourite 0-level spell), but it does illustrates that magic does override some use of the skill set, often without a skill check or a chance to fail.
'findel
I don't know if any campaign ever has been dependent on coins pulled out of ears.
I don't know if any campaign ever has been dependent on coins pulled out of ears.
lol
Neither do I, but that wasn't my point. I already said it wasn't broken.
What I said was that "... it does contribute to the feeling that spellcasters have it easier than martial/skillful characters."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So what do you propose? Whittle casters down so that they can only do damage spells but no more powerful than what an optimized martial could do?
There are a couple of options:
1) Bring the martials up to the level of the casters, which requires a certain level of "fantastification." (Rangers get freedom of movement and can track people through planar gates, for example). This is what Kirthfinder seems to have done (and done well, in my opinion).
2) Bring the casters down to the level of the martials. I don't think anyone wants this, nor has anyone I know of tried.
3) Redesign the way spellcasting works in the first place and balance martials and spellcasters to some sort of equilibrium point. This is what 4e did.
4) Have spellcasters play at a lower level than martials. So a level 10 Fighter is arbitrarily equal to a level 6 Wizard? Ok, then make that happen. Wizards would have a higher potential (the Wizard is more powerful at 20 than the Fighter at 20, but it takes longer to get there such that games end before Wizards actually get to the top). This was pre-3rd edition's method. If I recall my AD&D XP chart, Rogues required 1,250 XP to hit 2nd level, Clerics required 1,500 XP, Fighters required 2,000 XP, and Wizards needed 3,000 XP. Obviously, this didn't make people happy or that wouldn't have changed.
5) The ideal solution, in my opinion: fully admit and embrace the fact that casters are better. State this outright in the rules. Recommend that the standard game call for every character to be a spellcaster or that no characters are spellcasters. Provide rules for Challenge Ratings for all casters, for no casters, and for the recommended against mixed party. This is also what I think should be done for Jedi in Star Wars games, for the record.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
2) Bring the casters down to the level of the martials. I don't think anyone wants this, nor has anyone I know of tried.
You don't need to bring the casters down. All you need to do is readdress the spells.
The Vancian system as this advantage: change the spell list and you have a thematically different caster. In this case, the thematic can remain untouched but the spells can be redesigned and/or rummaged around.
My preference would be an alternate book of spells; including all the same spells at the same levels (so that backward compatibility is preserved) but re-written so that they don't outstage martial characters.
It would be quite an endeavor, but it would be a perfectly remove-and-replace fix with few or no impact outside the magic system.
'findel
...
I have no intelligent comment to make on-topic, but I just wanted to say, if your alias is a reference to the Fletcher Pratt novel, my hat's off to you, sir.
|
So what do you propose? Whittle casters down so that they can only do damage spells but no more powerful than what an optimized martial could do?
Doesn't need to be that binary or even an equivalent.
Martials have their own problems, casters should also have their own problems - at least they should have more than they currently do.
Some very basic/general ideas on the issue:
Less control over the Save paradigm (change the way the temp stat buff spells work).
Eliminate or reduce the amount of control casters have on the meta aspect of saving - unless the spell is designed to bring bad luck or directly affect saves. The raw numbers approach to save DC manipulation is both stupid, problematic and flavorless.
Spells with consequence - Spells can be good/powerful, but there should be some drawbacks/risk. Similar spells may be lower powered copies with less risks associated with casting them. Casters get choices in the risk they want to take.
Spell casting should be risky - Casting a spell should never be as routine as swinging a sword. Casting a spell in the middle of a fight shouldn't be routine, it should be risky - always.
--------------------------------------------------------------
You can preserve power (output) but it can be mitigated by risk. You don't need to turn everything into a 4e/equal powers game, but you should address the fact that if the caster can fly he should be able to fall, and if can summon demons they should occasionally try to eat him. That hasn't been the paradigm since 2nd edition. In 3e casters increased in power and had more safeguards built in and in PFRPG even more powerful/more hit points/spells.
Bring the casters down to the level of the martials. I don't think anyone wants this, nor has anyone I know of tried.
There was an "ultimate classes" wiki online somewhere that did this: all casters were spontaneous, with the bard progression for full casters, and with very limited spell lists (instead of a wizard, you would be like an evoker/necromancer/abjurer, or an enchanter/illusionist, with very few spells from other schools). The classes were well-designed and had a lot of interesting lower-powered options, and looked to be pretty well-balanced.
Post with valid points.
How about making so that all spell acquisition requires time and a series of checks similar to crafting?
Have it take a number of weeks equal to spell level squared / caster level, minimum 1 week, with each week requiring a spellcraft check equal to 20 + (spell level * 2) with each missed check pushing the spell back another week and also require the purchasing of a scroll at the market rate? "Cold learning" a spell without a scroll would double the duration and increase the weekly DC by 10. Mixing study time between "having scroll" and "not having scroll" would stay proportionally equal. So, if you get halfway done with "cold learning" and you get a scroll you're treated the same as being half way done learning the spell as though you had the scroll to begin with.
Use the same rules for crafting for time required each day (8 hours normal, 4 hours adventuring but only 2 hours gain while adventuring regardless but increase the DC to allow for 4 hours while adventuring if success). Start off with just a couple spells regardless if you're playing a Wiz or Sorc but after that you're on your own for acquiring spells. Only difference between Wiz and Sorc would be spontaneous versus prepared as it is now. Only level 1 would "auto-grant" spells and even have a limited number of cantrips but leave the selection option open.
But, if you do this, it'd only be fair to remove spell level restrictions so that even if I have only a single level 4 bonus spell per day slot, if I make my checks and time then I gain a level 4 spell even though I'm not 7th level. Keep the same spells per day but simply remove the tidbit requiring that a class needs to grant a spell level before being able to take spells of a certain level. This might encourage min/maxing a bit more but would require actual effort to gain spells and even a level 20 will only have what they've put the effort into gaining.
|
|
2) Bring the casters down to the level of the martials. I don't think anyone wants this, nor has anyone I know of tried.You don't need to bring the casters down. All you need to do is readdress the spells.
The Vancian system has this advantage: change the spell list and you have a thematically different caster. In this case, the thematic can remain untouched but the spells can be redesigned and/or rummaged around.
My preference would be an alternate book of spells; including all the same spells at the same levels (so that backward compatibility is preserved) but re-written so that they don't outstage martial characters.
It would be quite an endeavor, but it would be a perfectly remove-and-replace fix with few or no impact outside the magic system.
Pretty much this.
The only other things I would add would be to change the way spells are cast in combat/concentration and how the item creation system works in the game.But if I had to change one catagory, it would be the spells since the spells are the biggest single factor in the game.
My preference would be an alternate book of spells; including all the same spells at the same levels (so that backward compatibility is preserved) but re-written so that they don't outstage martial characters.
Doing that would bring the casters down, though. They would not remain at the same power level they had before. Changing a spell list is still changing the class, just like changing the way feats work would change the Fighter.
I'd be extremely impressed if you could do this, though. How could you even begin going about changing the following spells such that they are balanced against Martials as they currently stand:
Stone Shape
Wall of Stone
Overland Flight
Teleport
Dominate Monster
Contingency
Pretty much any "image" Illusion spell
Pretty much any scrying spell
Wish
I don't know, the list could go on...
|
|
Doing that would bring the casters down, though. They would not remain at the same power level they had before. Changing a spell list is still changing the class, just like changing the way feats work would change the Fighter.
I'd be extremely impressed if you could do this, though. How could you even begin going about changing the following spells such that they are balanced against Martials as they currently stand:
These are just some fun suggestions to "fix" spells while preserving their power. Most just add some risk elements, while a few make the tasks/problem resolution a little bit harder (mostly with the fly/scry game win buttons).
World Fixer: Items created with Wall of Stone last 1 hour a level
World Fixer: Game needs a magic item for forts, castles, etc, that would function as an Aegis/Mythal type ward to prevent enemy magical flight/teleportation - that or just get rid of the walls in the game world. Should have been made in 1st ed, but many spells were designed for "adventuring" with little thought to world consequence (and that is the continuing horrid trend)
World Fixer: Some locations may not be teleported to/out of - underdark, mountain ranges(limited), etc. Some fixed bases may also be warded to prevent direct entry
World Fixer: New save per day no matter what.
World Fixer: Some locations may be warded from scrying – also scrying may be limited based upon targets location: distance, location -ex: underground, etc.
World Fixer: Cannot create an item worth more than 15, 000 gp.
Anyway, just a try...
Bring the casters down to the level of the martials. I don't think anyone wants this, nor has anyone I know of tried.There was an "ultimate classes" wiki online somewhere that did this: all casters were spontaneous, with the bard progression for full casters, and with very limited spell lists (instead of a wizard, you would be like an evoker/necromancer/abjurer, or an enchanter/illusionist, with very few spells from other schools). The classes were well-designed and had a lot of interesting lower-powered options, and looked to be pretty well-balanced.