Can my monkey familiar use a wand to function as a medic?

[Khrysaor]

Deleted my last post in favor of this.

Familiars and skills
For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use.

Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell.[/b] This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for non-humanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.

There is no mention of needing a single word to activate a wand but the other rules for spell trigger apply. This could just be an oversight in the text but since it gives specifics on activation they trump the general.

Your monkey still lacks the spell list to be able to use a wand so he needs Use Magic Device or can benefit from your ranks but uses his own stats for the roll.

Use Magic Device
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge.

DC 20 for wands. Also looks like if you fail the roll you just lose the action and not the charge and don't have any mishaps that come along with activating blindly.

Monkies have a CHA of 5 which is a -3 stat modifier. Even with 1 rank of UMD coming from you he has a -2 modifier and can never succeed even on a roll of 20.

[blackbloodtroll]

Eagle's splendor and a mwk UMD tool. Give the monkey his banana.

[Tyki11]

Familiars are so...3.5

The only way to roll is to grow a goblin using the alchemist discovery and give him a satchel of potions.

[Spes Magna Mark]

Q: "Can my monkey family use a wand to function as a medic via Use Magic Device?"

A: "If your GM says 'yes'."

:)

[blackbloodtroll]

Seriously, magic monkey uses magic device. This should happen, on rule of cool at least.

[Charender]

Dennis Baker wrote:

Charender wrote:

Dennis Baker wrote:

Actually, that's not true. From the quote you posted:

"as if they were using a common language"

There is no common language, they are just able to understand whatever gibberish the other babbles. The 'communicate with animals of it's own kind' ability is also not a language.

I find this part more interesting.

You say this as if you had actually read the rules.

It's funny how people can alter the meaning of a phrase based on the way they want to read the rules but when taken in another context you understand exactly what that phrase means.

If there were some secret language why beat around the bush, just say "They share a secret language". It's simpler and everyone already knows how to treat a language. The only reason to create something that acts as if it were language is if it actually isn't one. They wouldn't even have to mention magical assistance because all that is inherent in an actual language.

and ∅

First up, you might want to try being a bit less condecending. Just because I didn't come to the same conclusion you did, does not mean I didn't read the rules.

1. Rule: "If the master is 5th level or higher, a familiar and the master can communicate verbally as if they were using a common language. Other creatures do not understand the communication without magical help." This implies that with magical help you another creature can understand the communication.
2. The only available magical help would be via spells like comprehend languages and tongues or magical items that duplicate the effects of these spells.
3. These spells both state that they allow the target understand any language.

Thus the communication between a familiar and their master is a language.

Another point of reference from the Comprehend Languages spells

SRD wrote:

You can understand the spoken words of creatures or read otherwise incomprehensible written messages. The ability to read does not necessarily impart insight into the material, merely its literal meaning. The spell enables you to understand or read an unknown language, not speak or write it.

Emphasis mine. The first half says it allows you to understand the spoken words of creatures. The second part says it allows you to understand a language. You attempt to single out the verbal communication between a master and familiar as not being a language because the developer don't straight out call it a language, but the developer seems to use the phrases "communicate verbally", "spoken words", and "language" interchangably. As far as pathfinder is concerned, any spoken or written communication of a creature is a language.

Since pathfinder never actually defines what is officially a language, lets look at the dictionary.

Spoiler:

language[lang-gwij]

1. a body of words and the systems for their use common to a people who are of the same community or nation, the same geographical area, or the same cultural tradition: the two languages of Belgium; a Bantu language; the French language; the Yiddish language.
2. communication by voice in the distinctively human manner, using arbitrary sounds in conventional ways with conventional meanings; speech.
3. the system of linguistic signs or symbols considered in the abstract ( opposed to speech).
4. any set or system of such symbols as used in a more or less uniform fashion by a number of people, who are thus enabled to communicate intelligibly with one another.
5. any system of formalized symbols, signs, sounds, gestures, or the like used or conceived as a means of communicating thought, emotion, etc.: the language of mathematics; sign language.

The master/familiar communication matches definitions 3, 4, and 5. It is by definition a language, but it would not be considered speech(definition 2) and it is not an known language like Common, Elvish, etc(which is definition 1).

There is nothing in the rules that says it is not a language, and plenty to imply that it is.

[Braer]

I realize that this is quite an old post, but it is one that still bubbled to the top of the list. It seems like, as of this particular post's no longer getting responses, that an official answer did not come down. (Well, at the very least it didn't happen in this thread.)

There is one response that I don't see someone make against our OP's monkey from being able to use the wand. It's been mentioned that while the monkey could swing everything else -- UMD once to imitate a caster, UMD twice or actually be able to utter the command word -- he wouldn't have the magical juju to pull it off. I disagree with this. Use Magic device is a skill that rogues get still. I'm pretty sure the skill exists solely because of rogues from early edition D&D, in fact. Rogues do not, by default, have anything that would considered magical juju any more than a Wizard's monkey familiar. In fact, there is no restriction on anyone of any class from taking this skill. They could even get it in class with a bonus through a trait. I really don't see how you can then say that the monkey somehow lacks the ability or know how to use UMD any more or less than any other non-casting classed person in the party.

I find this part of the argument completely invalid. If our subjuctular monkey has the skill, that is enough. He's human intelligent, can easily e taught any finer details by his master, and that should be enough. At least as far as "magical knowledge or know how" goes.

--

My own opinion on this before reading the thread was that an animal familiar could. This is why people like Mephit familiars: hands, wings, high charisma, unquestionable language capacity. It seems like the familiar merely needs to be able to aim the thing in order to be able to do so. Bats are out (unless it's a REALLY small wand, and probably curved for his feet to work it.) So... sure, operating it is an issue. Monkey, though, has no trouble.

The speech seems to be the issue. I myself had originally thought that to use a wand you needed to be able to speak in some kind of language. I see now that I was incorrect in that it's not mentioned at all in the description, and if that's the case our Monkey should be just fine at using the wand. Well...

This is assuming we define "just fine" as needing to make the UMD role for imitating a class that has the spell on his list. Even at DC 20, which is low for this skill, it's far from certain. If master keeps the skill maxed, he'll have his level in ranks in it. The monkey won't, as far as I read this, get bonuses from it being a class skill, bonuses from feats and talents, or the master's charisma bonus. You could give him things like a cracked Pink and Green Sphere Ioun Stone that adds 1 to Use Magic Device, a headband of added Charisma (expensive option, granted), or a holy symbol of the god whose cleric(s) made those wands of cure light wounds you are hording -- monkey-sized, of course. (I myself was thinking of a headband made up like antlers, with a little center part at the middle of the forehead with Erastil's holy symbol, all made of bone or wood, in order to aid with activating those wands of Cure Light Wounds you keep buying from Clerics of Erastil. It could probably also work as an spare holy symbol for the cleric of Erastil in the party... but it is unwise to mess with Monkey's beloved antlers.)

If you require speech to activate a wand, and say that a command word is required (despite the text not indicating so, also thus requiring you not stand in that Silence aura and expect to fire your wands off)... Well, from all I have read here and thought myself, it sounds like the speech gained at 5th level would more than easily fit that requirement. (Personally, I would say that you and your familiar need to be able to communicate in order to coordinate using a wand in combat in the first place. Monkey is way smart and all, but not being able to speak with him might put a damper on instructing him to do so.) It seems like you have two options to deal with that. As mentioned, the first is when the item is made, make sure the command work is something you can both say. If you haven't done this, though, and it is not reasonable for Monkey to imitate human speech adequately, then he'd need to make a second UMD roll for blindly activating it. Personally, I think that given you can activate a wand even while you are swallowed whole, intelligent/intelligible command words and graceful, precise movement seem like they are, by default, no required.

Edit: note that on this last point, I personally always think of wands requiring a command word. I could be incorrect... but it is how I always thought of them. I would have to contemplate this if I actually ran a game, hopefully finding some clarification before I needed to make a ruling... preferably a FAQ or dev reply that I previously missed.

[Braer]

Hm, addendum question:

Let's say instead of a monkey, I have a squirrel. According to the Magic Item Slots for Animals table, squirrels are a "No" in the Grasp/Carry category.(*)

However, I have been wondering if my hypothetical squirrel could use Prestidigitation in order to do this. He could lift the wand slowly, as per the spell description. Many people encourage the use of Prestidigitation to do things like move small rocks around; the key example of this is to cast it that pebble, marble, or copper piece that you just cast Light on.

Could my squirrel then:

• Cast Prestidigitation.
  
• Lift the wand in front of him.
  
• Place his paw on the base of the wand.
  
• Use Prestidigitation to move the wand around in front of him while moving his paw with it.(**)
  
• Use Use Magic Device to activate the wand?
  

This presumes two things. First, that we've established that your familiar can, in theory, use Use Magic Device to activate a wand. I personally think so, especially after reading the discussions above, but I think it's still a general issue. (Links to cannon answers appreciated.) I would understand an answer that said, "I do not think familiars can/should be able to use wannds under any circumstances," and then saying, "But if you were to allow such a thing in your game, then this method should (or shouldn't) work for this reason..."

Second, this also assumes your familiar has a way to cast Prestidigitation in the first pace. Personally I have just discovered the Familiar Archetypes section of the PFSRD. The Valet Familiar Archetype caught my eye especially. (The ultimate answer about wand activation not withstanding, I find the archetype appealing.)

--
*: While one could argue that squirrels do hold things, I am not. (They hold nuts in their forepaws whilst sitting and eating. They do not flourish Diminutive-sized sticks.)

**: Even if the final step wouldn't work, this would be very cute to watch.