Trying to come up with a good argument why it's not but would like some support because it happens to be about my character. Even if it was someone else's I would defend it because there are requirements for it be used and I'm level 8 and I've only used it once.
Any suggestions on how to explain why it's not broken? I searched the forums and haven't found anyone else complaining about it.
I need to prepare a good case why it's not before I present my argument because my DM is an actual lawyer! (Hahaha)
Thanks!
-Cromlech, the orc Monk
PS - any new errata or anything about Crane Wing?
Because archers and ranged attacks exist.
Why isnt deflect arrows broken? It does the exact same thing, just vs a ranged attack. It's also been around since 3.0, if not earlier (before my time).
Honestly, you shouldn't have to come up with a reason it isn't broken as much as your GM needs to come up with a reason that it is. Its kinda like the legal system. You don't have to prove that you didn't steal that car, they have to prove that you did.
You've used it once?
I have a couple levels of fighter so haven't had it too long and we have a front line fighter who usually is the target/meat shield.
Again?
Didn't see another post about Crane Wing vrs being broken - just different applications of it.
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Look again, MY POST IS NOW DIAMONDS!
yeah i saw the link the first time but for some reason when i initially searched the forums to avoid a repeat thread that didn't come up.
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Because it's heavy feat investment for something that's conditional.
It is not broken because it stops one hit per round. If you're only attacked once per round, you're not going to die anyway. Further, you're nerfing your damage to do so--you're taking at least a -2 penalty to hit to avoid a single blow. You're also not using a Style that boosts your damage instead.
I think the best question here is, why is a monster bothering to attack your monk if he's so focused on defense and neglecting his offense? If I was an intelligent foe, I'd be attacking the rest of your party before bothering to deal with you.
The same goes for people who think Panther Style is unfair.
Because defense is only good if you have an offense.
After only half of today's session this isn't an issue anymore. I got slammed a few times today because I wasn't able to activate it, proving to them it's not broken by the circumstance needed to benefit from it.
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I love playtest reports. I hope it wasn't too brutal on you! :)
Hahaha - not too bad - didn't result in death, just low enough to have to retreat to drink and wait for a channel energy.
Having to move at half speed to use Acrobatics to get into combat, using a Ki point also being a swift action, having a lower initiative, not being able to make an attack (defensively), not being able to hit well enough to warrant an attack made on me, etc all prevented me from using it so I laughed after the 4th time I couldn't and mockingly commented with a "HA! Broken my @$$!"
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OMG, somebody took theorycraft to practice and verified how something works in actual play? 2012 truly is the final year of our civilization.
I know right? I figured it would just end up turning out that way. The DM is actually awesome and figured common sense would eventually win and I wouldn't have to make my plea. Thanks for all the help folks. I'm glad I didn't need to use it.
Happy New Year all.
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Add difficult terrain to the list of why I couldn't activate it . . . and add a checkmark to the "Ha, not broken!" list.
(Note to self: Carry daggers so if one movement doesn't get me close enough, I can still chuck one defensively.)
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OMG, somebody took theorycraft to practice and verified how something works in actual play? 2012 truly is the final year of our civilization.
i call shenanigans. no-one here would ever put theory into practice, not when there are all these flame wars to win. GM_Wil, we're on to you! ;)
(To dispel any possible doubt, that was sarcasm. good man for putting your HP where your mouth is, we can all profit from your example.)
GM_Wil, we're on to you! ;)
Of course you are, my current Charisma is a 5.
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Your character could be convinced there are invisible opponents everywhere and be constantly attacking into their squares (defensively of course) swearing that they'll get the bastard, eventually, if only if he didn't dodge quite so much!
It seems that the devs think that multiple attacks are more common than i see them. Loosing one of your three attacks isn't that bad, loosing one of one on the other hand...
Also, once the big bad do once the monk blocks his 1 attack a round? he goes and finds someone else to kill instead.
The monk is giving up offense for that defense, has a lower tohit, and less damage than if he had taken a offense feat chain. He generally gets pretty safe to ignore by big bad things with 1 attack.
(Note to self: Carry daggers so if one movement doesn't get me close enough, I can still chuck one defensively.)
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Shurikens let you flurry!
Shurikens let you flurry!(Note to self: Carry daggers so if one movement doesn't get me close enough, I can still chuck one defensively.)
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...but not after a move :)
The monk is giving up offense for that defense, has a lower tohit, and less damage than if he had taken a offense feat chain. He generally gets pretty safe to ignore by big bad things with 1 attack.
Yep. We have a couple beefy fighters so my Hungry Ghost Monk likes being a skirmisher, acrobatics n such to get into flanking positions because I use a "menacing" temple sword, harass spell casters, aid others with attacks since my "to hit" is lower and I don't do as much damage compared to the fighters, and using Punishing Kick to either move people around or try and drop em prone with that hopeful roll of 1 on their save . . .
so that's why I got concerned when there was talk of house ruling my character's one ability that would alloy me to shine for that one crucial moment - not to mention my basic means of survival.
The DM's biggest concern was the automatic block part . . . and how it nulls a one-hit creature or a fighter using the Vital Strike build, but I said that's an example of balance having a build that counters such things.
Anyway, the session was a perfect example of how the conditions need to be just right in order for me to use it. We were fighting large, heavy-hitters in cramped quarters or on difficult terrain that took a lot of double-moving, shifting, jumping, and use of the Ki pool. I was getting pounded like a Whack-A-Mole . . . After only one swat without my Crane Wing I would have to get back a round or two and wait for channel energy and drink potions (healing spells were being used for the front-liners) . . . In a big encounter I was able to take one hit on the way inside the creature's reach and took a chance, aiding the paladin's attacks and providing a great flanking bonus to the 4 guys on the other side of the beast . . . So it took a whole day of brutal punishment and close calls for my build to finally come in useful for one big encounter - that's not a sign of something being broken.
(PS - Not an inexperienced gamer so the "If the Monk was played right it would have been broken" grumble doesn't apply. Trust me, when a person takes the time to make just the right build, they do their damndest to make use of it.)
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...and how it nulls a one-hit creature or a fighter using the Vital Strike build
Being canceled by Crane Wings is the least of the weaknesses of a Vital Strike build. Vital Strike is terrrible for just about everything other than very large monsters using Improved Natural Attacks.
Vital Strike is terrrible for just about everything other than very large monsters using Improved Natural Attacks.
My last character was a Bard that used the Vital strike chain with his firearm . . . worked rather well.
If only you were a master of many styles, then you could throw Snake on with it, and with a decent enough Sense motive total turn two attacks into outright misses.
Fighting in full defense with that and panther would be so much fun until your DM decides to stop letting mooks kill themselves on you while you dance around them.
I have following step, step up, step up and strike so I can prove to be very annoying when I get in close.
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Well you have to fight defensively so you get a minus to attack and I think there is a rule that prevents power attacking and using combat expertise/fighting defensively, but I can't find it to reference it. If you can't power attack then DR is pretty much going to wipe you out. Also you have to have a free hand so that means no shield or TWF.
The whole wording of the Crane Wing feat just gives me a headache. The feat says a deflected attack deals no damage, but what about effects that are not exactly damage like poison, disease, spells, etc. I honestly have no idea how that is intended to work.
You can get +12 AC for -3 attack bonus with Crane Style and even with -3 the offensive power is not diminished much.
Saw a 7th level Aldori Sword Dueling Fighter / 3rd level Weapon Master monk in action that was doing this. It was an NPC in a game though but the AC made it difficult for the melee PCs to hit the bed guy. The players took the guy out with combination of damage spells and ranged attacks.
stuffs
There is not such wording on power attack and combat expertise. You can do both at once.
This is in DR but is rather relevant:
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.
You can get +12 AC for -3 attack bonus with Crane Style and even with -3 the offensive power is not diminished much.
How do you figure that?
You can get +12 AC for -3 attack bonus with Crane Style and even with -3 the offensive power is not diminished much.
Please do show your work on this. I have my doubts, but I'd love to be proven wrong
...and how it nulls a one-hit creature or a fighter using the Vital Strike buildBeing canceled by Crane Wings is the least of the weaknesses of a Vital Strike build. Vital Strike is terrrible for just about everything other than very large monsters using Improved Natural Attacks.
Depends on how often you full attack. In the groups i've played with the fighter moves up, hits something, the rest of the party smells blood in the water and finishes it off. I or the meat shield i'm running for tend to keep moving attacking moving attacking.
Crane wing is one of the best feats in the game. It has an excellent effect that adds a lot to the monks survivability.
That doesn't make it broken though, as feats are generally pretty weak and monk at its core is one of the weakest classes (supplements have pretty much fixed this though).
You can get +12 AC for -3 attack bonus with Crane Style and even with -3 the offensive power is not diminished much.How do you figure that?Hmm...
- +2 AC (Aldori Swordlord "Defensive Parry" ability)
- +6 AC (Fighting Defensively with Crane Style and Aldori Swordlord "Steel Net" ability, no penalty to hit thanks to the latter)
- +3 AC, -3 to hit (Combat expertise)
Defensive Parry relies on full attacks, as does steel net -- but providing you get those. But I can see what you are saying now, I had forgotten that Combat expertise and fighting defensively didn't have exclusion language (that I think they use to).
Also I would point out that you aren't getting a +12 -3 from crane style in this case -- you're getting a +8 -0 from crane styles -- combat expertise is its own bonus. BUT at level twenty you'll get +5 from defensive parry which would mean a bonus of +11 with crane style.
The shielded fighter has a similar ability that I like a bit better since it doesn't rely on full attacks -- however it does give less overall bonus too (however it does allow you to get a shield bonus while you are at it).
@Helaman no one said you couldn't as it quite specifically states you can. However the Aldori swordmastery feat isn't a part of crane style and therefore isn't part of crane style giving a +13 bonus with a -3 penalty either.
2 AC fighting Defensively
1 AC Crane Style (dodge Bonus)
2 Steelnet (dodge Bonus) FA
2 defensive parry FA
2 shield Bonus with Aldori Dueling Master
3 Combat Expertise
For +12 AC only when Full Attacking though.