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How come Sword Cane is not a weapon finesse weapon? Seems like if Rapier is it should be as well.
You got me. It doesn't seem like the kind of weapon you'd use to break someone's guard with your strength.
I was kind of hoping someone was going to tell me it had been erratad. Love the labor of it, but for any character other than the cad archetype I don't know who it makes sense for.
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Maybe a spare weapon in case your fighter goes to a party?
love that.
I just gave my bard alchemist it for flavor. He is a ranged fighter so he won't ever use it, but the grenadier archetype gives a martial weapon proficiency so I had to. But it just don't make no sense
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I always thought it was a finesse weapon too. Maybe ask your GM?
How is it not?
It's just in the Martial table instead of the Simple table but the description says:
Sword Cane: This slender light blade lies within a wooden container that serves as both its scabbard and hiding place. You can draw the blade from the cane as a swift action (or a free action if you have the Quick Draw feat). An observer must make a DC 20 Perception check to realize an undrawn sword cane is a weapon rather than a walking stick; the DC decreases to 10 if the observer is able to handle the weapon.
and the feat says
Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Where is the disconnect?
The problem is that the Cane is a one-handed martial weapon.
Unlike the cane, a rapier or chained spike has a specific clause about finesse.
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.
Those sound like exceptions whereas the sword cane squarely falls into the feat since it's a light weapon already. What you quoted says "this qualifies even though it normally wouldn't." The feat makes no distinction if the weapon is simple, martial or exotic. It just has to be a light weapon.
Those sound like exceptions whereas the sword cane squarely falls into the feat since it's a light weapon already. What you quoted says "this qualifies even though it normally wouldn't." The feat makes no distinction if the weapon is simple, martial or exotic. It just has to be a light weapon.
I mentioned it above, unless I read it wrong.
Sword Cane seems to be a One-handed Martial Weapon. Not light.
Yet, the description says it's a light weapon.
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Yet, the description says it's a light weapon.
The fluff says it's a light blade. Sadly, while I agree that sword cane should work with finesse, and would house rule as such, the wording "This slender light blade..." does not equal Light Weapons, which is a type/class of item.
They should errata it thought.
Doesn't matter what the description says. It falls under the one handed martial weapon chart and doesn't have a built in clause to allow weapon finesse. I'm sure it will get erattad to fit unless they've thought of some game breaking dynamic with it already.
Woah, there. If the description doesn't matter then neither do the descriptions that say weapon finesse works here. Be careful with that argument. Either it matters or it doesn't.
EDIT: Several items have entries in the description that have a tangible impact upon the mechanics of how they're used and what they can be used for. So, I take the descriptions to be more than fluff, because, generally, they are.
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Doesn't matter what the description says. It falls under the one handed martial weapon chart and doesn't have a built in clause to allow weapon finesse. I'm sure it will get erattad to fit unless they've thought of some game breaking dynamic with it already.Woah, there. If the description doesn't matter then neither do the descriptions that say weapon finesse works here. Be careful with that argument. Either it matters or it doesn't.
EDIT: Several items have entries in the description that have a tangible impact upon the mechanics of how they're used and what they can be used for. So, I take the descriptions to be more than fluff, because, generally, they are.
What he meant is that there's fluff text, and there's a rule clause. Saying this is a shiny blade does mean the same as 'this blade has a glowing aura(magic weapon side-effect).'
Poor example, but intention is the same, fluff text, rule text.
"This slender light blade lies within a wooden container that serves as both its scabbard and hiding place." Fluff.
"You can draw the blade from the cane as a swift action (or a free action if you have the Quick Draw feat). An observer must make a DC 20 Perception check to realize an undrawn sword cane is a weapon rather than a walking stick; the DC decreases to 10 if the observer is able to handle the weapon." Rules.
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Woah, there. If the description doesn't matter then neither do the descriptions that say weapon finesse works here. Be careful with that argument. Either it matters or it doesn't.
It's a one-handed weapon. If you wield it in your off-hand, you take extra penalties to hit when two-weapon fighting. Thus, despite being described as light, it does not fall under the light weapons category, which is the only weapon category that can be finessed.
Light weapons don't have a set weight limit either:
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
Are you following me Khrysa?
But yeah, lie he said ^ Some weapons contain a fluff text, and then they contain rule or a clause, when they do, they tend to use specific wording, such as Light Weapon, One handed weapon, two handed weapon, etc.
"This fine blade is made of light Mithril" =/= Is not a Fine Sized Light weapon but might contain the Mithril special material.
Edit: Light weapon has no limit, no. But in weapon section, the Sword Cane is in the One Handed Martial Weapon section, making it a One Handed weapon unless a special material or weapon ability or feat changes or rule clause(rapier) changes that.
It's a one-handed weapon. If you wield it in your off-hand, you take extra penalties to hit when two-weapon fighting. Thus, despite being described as light, it does not fall under the light weapons category, which is the only weapon category that can be finessed.
Yup. Gonna mark it an FAQ candidate.
lol. I've been running into you, Buri, and mdt on every thread I go to. Seems we all have similar interests.Are you following me Khrysa?
Nagging, whining and stirring up trouble? :D
Are you following me Khrysa?
But yeah, lie he said ^ Some weapons contain a fluff text, and then they contain rule or a clause, when they do, they tend to use specific wording, such as Light Weapon, One handed weapon, two handed weapon, etc."This fine blade is made of light Mithril" =/= Is not a Fine Sized Light weapon but might contain the Mithril special material.
Edit: Light weapon has no limit, no. But in weapon section, the Sword Cane is in the One Handed Martial Weapon section, making it a One Handed weapon unless a special material or weapon ability or feat changes or rule clause(rapier) changes that.
Special materials can't be used like that. At least not Mithral.
An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon's size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed).
lol. I've been running into you, Buri, and mdt on every thread I go to. Seems we all have similar interests.Are you following me Khrysa?
Yarr!
I do agree that Sword Cane should work like a rapier. But the specific wording hotfix we want is something along lines of Rapier, Spiked Chain, Aldori Dueling sword, or the whip.
Note that all of the weapons below are One-Handed Weapons. The only reason they can be finessed, is due to the rule wording after the word BENEFIT.
Sawtooth Sabre
A sawtooth sabre may be used as a Martial Weapon (in which case it functions as a longsword), but if you have the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtooth sabre), you treat the weapon as if it were a light weapon for the purpose of two-weapon fighting—the sabre remains classified as a one-handed melee weapon for all other purposes.
Rapier
Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.
Aldori
Benefit: An Aldori dueling sword may be used as a Martial Weapon (in which case it functions as a longsword), but if you have the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori dueling sword), you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls with an Aldori dueling sword sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon.
Whip
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.
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How come Sword Cane is not a weapon finesse weapon? Seems like if Rapier is it should be as well.
Because paizo hates canes obviously.
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But then, might as well use the entire cane as a bludgeoning tool for your strangely large barbarian (we suspect magical steroids).
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Because the Katana isn't finessable.
What does the Katana have to do with the price of fish in Morocco? Or the sword cane for that matter?
I always think of Splinter from TMNT the original cartoon, every once in a while he used a sword cane, and if there was ever a finesse fighter I would say Splinter was one
Side note: Some one should make Splinter!!
You can actually make Splinter now, with Bestiary 3 out.
Ratfolk Monk
I would allow Finesse with a sword cane. I'm assuming the people that are saying a sword cane could not be balanced properly, and that it doesn't have a proper grip, are assuming that the cane grip and the sword pommel are the same thing. They aren't.
Here's a good picture of a sword cane. Note that the pommel is not the cane grip, the cane grip is used as a counterweight on the pommel. The first 4 inches of the cane body are the grip, with the blade extending down from there.
I guess that people are imagining the blade as going straight down from cane grip. If that were the case, the weapon would snap off the first time you hit with it, cause there would be no tang in the grip.
mdt, your example for a sword cane is fine. Especially for european renaissance or late middle age styles. Its kind of an rapier then, a slim light blade for piercing or slashing.
However sword canes can have an asian flavour too, where they are normally like very light katanas (but not like katanas themselves), often used in a different fighting style where you hold the blade downward in your hand.
Its often used by more small framed guys or women too.
The blade is conceiled unto the last moment and then drawn out fast, dealing heavy damage. So its like finessable and with easy crit.
Ok, have to move, will finish this later.
mdt, your example for a sword cane is fine. Especially for european renaissance or late middle age styles. Its kind of an rapier then, a slim light blade for piercing or slashing.
However sword canes can have an asian flavour too, where they are normally like very light katanas (but not like katanas themselves), often used in a different fighting style where you hold the blade downward in your hand.
Its often used by more small framed guys or women too.
The blade is conceiled unto the last moment and then drawn out fast, dealing heavy damage. So its like finessable and with easy crit.Ok, have to move, will finish this later.
The asian version you are talking about already has its own rules in Ultimate Combat (page 132).
Katana, Double Walking Stick: This single case
conceals a pair of matched fighting swords perfectly
balanced to be wielded as a pair. Despite their name,
the blades more closely resemble the shorter wakizashi.
When the blades are concealed in their case, this weapon
can be used as a quarterstaff.
As for the topic, I agree with other posters that the Sword Cane shouldn't have access to Weapon Finesse.
It is not a light weapon, being around 3 feet long. And it is foremost designed for stealth and not for speed or balance, thus precluding any special rule for it as a one-handed weapon.
The asian version you are talking about already has its own rules in Ultimate Combat (page 132).Katana, Double Walking Stick: This single case
conceals a pair of matched fighting swords perfectly
balanced to be wielded as a pair. Despite their name,
the blades more closely resemble the shorter wakizashi.
When the blades are concealed in their case, this weapon
can be used as a quarterstaff.As for the topic, I agree with other posters that the Sword Cane shouldn't have access to Weapon Finesse.
It is not a light weapon, being around 3 feet long. And it is foremost designed for stealth and not for speed or balance, thus precluding any special rule for it as a one-handed weapon.
I don´t agree, because this is a double weapon.
What im talking about is something close to a wakizashi, hidden in a walking stick. Look at the movie "Zatoichi, the blind samurai" for an example. You could use the stick scabbard for a combat trick scabbard, thats all.Still i also think it should be finessed.
But the path here leads to the endless STR vs DEX discussion and artefacts from D&D.
Yeah, I knew about the Zatochi variety, but given it's on the normal weapon list, rather than the Eastern weapons list, I assume the one from the UC is not the eastern type but the western type.
I don´t agree, because this is a double weapon.
What im talking about is something close to a wakizashi, hidden in a walking stick. Look at the movie "Zatoichi, the blind samurai" for an example. You could use the stick scabbard for a combat trick scabbard, thats all.Still i also think it should be finessed.
But the path here leads to the endless STR vs DEX discussion and artefacts from D&D.
Did you even read the description???? This weapon is Zatoichi's shikomizue.
Yeah, I knew about the Zatochi variety, but given it's on the normal weapon list, rather than the Eastern weapons list, I assume the one from the UC is not the eastern type but the western type.
?
The one in UC is the eastern type...
I don´t agree, because this is a double weapon.
What im talking about is something close to a wakizashi, hidden in a walking stick. Look at the movie "Zatoichi, the blind samurai" for an example. You could use the stick scabbard for a combat trick scabbard, thats all.Still i also think it should be finessed.
But the path here leads to the endless STR vs DEX discussion and artefacts from D&D.Did you even read the description???? This weapon is Zatoichi's shikomizue.
And no, this weapon is not finessable. It is nowhere NEAR as balanced as a rapier.
Yeah, he did read the description. I don't think you did.
Katana, Double Walking Stick: This single case conceals a pair of matched fighting swords perfectly balanced to be wielded as a pair. Despite their name, the blades more closely resemble the shorter wakizashi. When the blades are concealed in their case, this weapon can be used as a quarterstaff.
Zatochi's shikomizue was a single katana blade in a cane. Not two short wakizashis. He certainly didn't do TWF.
Yeah, I knew about the Zatochi variety, but given it's on the normal weapon list, rather than the Eastern weapons list, I assume the one from the UC is not the eastern type but the western type.?
The one in UC is the eastern type...
I meant I knew about Zatochi's sword (as in, I have seen the movies). I did not think the one in the APG (Yeah, forgot which book it was in.) was intended to be an eastern sword, and therefore believed it should be the western type of sword cane, based on it's description.
Zatochi's shikomizue was a single katana blade in a cane. Not two short wakizashis. He certainly didn't do TWF.
Zatoichi's blade was a wakizashi length sword in a cane. The only difference between his and the Double Walking Stick Katana is that you get 2 for the price of 1. No one forces you to use both.
The Sword Cane on the other hand has NOTHING to do with Zatoichi's Shikomizue. It is a length of steel that is exclusively used for piercing (hence only P as damage type).
Cane with 1 sword, 3 feet long (cane sized)
Cane with 2 swords, 5 feet long (quarterstaff sized)
1 <> 2
3 feet <> 5 feet
It is not Zatochi's cane. The fact you ranted at someone for not reading the description, then try to say a quarterstaff with two swords in it is the same as a cane with one sword in it really does not make you look very good.
39 inches long
28 inch long blade
40 inches long
28 7/8 inch long blade
25 5/8 inches long
18 3/4 inch long blade
6 to 9 feet long
I believe both eastern and european version are light blades like in light weapons. Maybe put the damage a little bit down for that, but threat range up like rapier.
This wouldnt hurt the game any bit.
Many argue DEX builds have more overall usage because DEX is for skills and reflex save, but i dont think so.
DEX makes much less damage and doesn´t have as much armor class without heavy armor or memdium armor. Even with the "agile" weapon enhancement you are behind because its +1 enahncement and you have to pay it.
Most DEX builds also don´t have full BAB.
Making something like the sword cane a finesseable weapon or softening up Weapon Finese rules adds a lot more flavor to the game!
Because suddenly you can play a DEX build and hit aka be usefull while having skills etc and applying conditions, sneak attack, control with maneuvers as a medium BAB class.
This way you don´t have to spend every feat on min/max and can do some other stuff that is plain cool eventually, what also adds more flavor to the game and its far from being overpowered.