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Many tasks in a high economy game are often dull. The classic example of this would be player vs rock combat that is mining in eve. It is aproxamatly as exciting as watching paint dry.
Some games have however made what are in reality tedious and unfun tasks into exciting mini-games that challenge and reward those who excel in them. One of the best examples of this is Puzzle Pirates specifically the bilge pumping minigame. I served on a ship in the USN and there are few jobs more unfun than bilge pumping. In Puzzle Pirates is an exciting game of matching like things with escalating challenge as you become proficient.
Now Puzzle Pirates possibly went a bit far in making the entirety of the game about mini-games. That is clearly not called for in PFO. I do however think that some tasks could be made both more fun and more legitimate by creating minigames. The example brought up in another thread was chopping wood. I think a simple mechanic where you had to time the swings of your axe to either maintain a rhythm or hit a precise zone would add an aspect of gathering that simple player vs tree combat would be lacking.
We could extrapolate it further and perhaps accelerate crafting jobs by scoring critical success in a matching game or a tetris-like fit the pieces game for manufacturing or enchanting more refined goods.
Downsides to this idea would be the difficulty of implementing quality minigames (thats a whole separate field of game design and would probably require their own team). The other major flaw in the system is that it tests player skill vs character skill. For example no matter how good a set of boxing gloves or bonuses I get in Puzzle Pirates I will never be a good brawler that minigame just doesn't click for me. Therefore I think it essencial that these minigames only be noncombat in nature.
Goblin Squad Member
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Every time I read this kind of minigame idea, with suggestion like "a simple mechanic where you had to time the swings of your axe to either maintain a rhythm or hit a precise zone would add an aspect of gathering that simple player vs tree combat would be lacking" I feel a cramp in my right hand.
"Minigames" are fun the first time, acceptable the next 9, but after the 10th time that you are repeating the same kind of action to get same kind of result (maybe getting a better return, but still the same set of actions), they become incredibly boring. From my point of view EVE mining is better as you can do it into the background, while doing the important stuff (playing the market, building from remote, managig your planet industries and so on).
So, from my point of view minigames fall under the "very bad idea" label if they are mandatory to gather/work materials.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Every time I read this kind of minigame idea, with suggestion like "a simple mechanic where you had to time the swings of your axe to either maintain a rhythm or hit a precise zone would add an aspect of gathering that simple player vs tree combat would be lacking" I feel a cramp in my right hand.
"Minigames" are fun the first time, acceptable the next 9, but after the 10th time that you are repeating the same kind of action to get same kind of result (maybe getting a better return, but still the same set of actions), they become incredibly boring. From my point of view EVE mining is better as you can do it into the background, while doing the important stuff (playing the market, building from remote, managig your planet industries and so on).
So, from my point of view minigames fall under the "very bad idea" label if they are mandatory to gather/work materials.
The key would be to create a minigame that is varied enough so as to not become tedious.
Alternatively, make the minigame optional, but have participation in the minigame yield a slightly increased (or additional) result.
For instance, if you had a crafting minigame you could craft normally (just press the Craft button and wait until it finishes) or play the short minigame and create a stronger item, or have a chance to discover a new item recipe in the process (I like the latter idea better, frankly).
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Goblin Squad Member
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So crafting is like taking a 10 and your minigame system is rolling if it is optional?
Sort of. I wouldn't stretch the analogy too far.
You achieve standard results, in standard time without playing.
Exactly. You get exactly what you're promised. You pick an item to craft, make sure you have it in your inventory, and hit "Craft". Some (probably short) amount of time passes, and you wind up with the crafted item.
Or, you participate in the minigame, receive the item per usual, but also have a chance to gain an extra benefit of some kind. And there are lots of different sorts of benefits you could make this dispense - a chance to create an extra item, a chance to learn a new recipe, a chance to add a long-term (30 minutes+) buff, a chance to create a better-than-normal item, etc.
Minigames could reduce materials, increase outcome, or reduce "crafting cooldown" or however time is implemented.
Yep, all of these. I like the idea of reducing materials, too. Maybe you'd have a chance of getting a small "refund" if you complete the minigame.
Importantly, however, you shouldn't fail to make the item if you fail the minigame.
Oh, and the minigame should be designed to take roughly the same amount of time that crafting the item normally would take.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of a optional minigame. It should not be the only way to get new/better recipes but it should have a higher chance of getting them than doing your job in the safe and steady way.
Or if we get skill point for doing something the guy doing the minigame should get a slight increase in the skill points receive.
Just be careful the minigames truly ARE optional. If you can get a signficant damage bonus, for example, everyone will have to play the game when making weapons for use or take a DPS hit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So crafting is like taking a 10 and your minigame system is rolling if it is optional?Sort of. I wouldn't stretch the analogy too far.
You achieve standard results, in standard time without playing.Exactly. You get exactly what you're promised. You pick an item to craft, make sure you have it in your inventory, and hit "Craft". Some (probably short) amount of time passes, and you wind up with the crafted item.
Or, you participate in the minigame, receive the item per usual, but also have a chance to gain an extra benefit of some kind. And there are lots of different sorts of benefits you could make this dispense - a chance to create an extra item, a chance to learn a new recipe, a chance to add a long-term (30 minutes+) buff, a chance to create a better-than-normal item, etc.
Minigames could reduce materials, increase outcome, or reduce "crafting cooldown" or however time is implemented.Yep, all of these. I like the idea of reducing materials, too. Maybe you'd have a chance of getting a small "refund" if you complete the minigame.
Importantly, however, you shouldn't fail to make the item if you fail the minigame.
Oh, and the minigame should be designed to take roughly the same amount of time that crafting the item normally would take.
This. I like this concept. Imagine you can play the mini-game to improve your item, based upon your 'skill' in that craft. Mini-games provide a way to 'boost' your crafting above the Skill's 'standard' parameters.
But as the Skills of the characters increase, does that mean the mini-games become more and more complex? Quick-time events are murder on older players, but at the same time, players who can and will play the mini-games and can keep up with them should be rewarded by better/more expensive items than those who do not.
Should a 'max-leveled' Smithing Skill involve the same sort of mini-game as a beginner or intermediate-level of the same skill, and if no, how do we make the mini-game useful again now that the Player can make most items with their eyes closed? How do we keep the Mini-game fun without ramping the challenge up to stupid levels or making it a trite little ritual?
Forging a sword, first part of the mini-game is leaving it in the forge and getting the bellows just right. Second part of the mini-game is hammering it, returning it to the fire, hammering it out again. Third part is putting the edge on the weapon without taking too much off.
First and second parts of the mini-game can add or detract from the weapon's hitpoints and maybe even Hardness, while the third part can decide if the weapon deals slightly more or less damage on a hit. An excellent display at the Minigame could make a Masterwork weapon even better mechanically, while a failure should not mean the weapon crafted is inferior, but you take a punishment elsewhere such as the weapon 'sells' for less or you take a minor XP penalty for a few minutes, or the weapon 'loses' it's Masterwork status in the worst-case scenario.
Everyone who makes weapons. It was a generalised situation, also known as an example, Matthew.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just be careful the minigames truly ARE optional. If you can get a signficant damage bonus, for example, everyone will have to play the game when making weapons for use or take a DPS hit.Why would everyone make weapons?
That would be seriously odd.
I believe the person is clearly intending to say everyone who makes weapons :), as in saying if they make a significant damage bonus that is not otherwise available, then weapons made without the mini-game and without the bonus would quickly become unsellable vendor trash, which is more or less the same thing as requiring the mini-game.
I have to agree with this sentiment though, either any bonuses applicable have to also be possible without, (say 50% chance when auto crafting, 40-70% (depending on score) with the minigame. Or if the bonuses are just say 5% less materials used (this one is risky to do, as crafters who like the game may set the price lower to guarantee people who don't play the game cannot match their prices), or even up to a 50% reduction to crafting time.
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The point is that even if you didn't want to play the minigame to gather resources or manufacture gear you could still pay cash to those who do wish to do so.
This would in my mind only help the games economy. When one person is skilled at the weponscrafting game that person can easily make high quality weapons and have fund doing so. When another person is skilled at the potion brewing mini game that person has easy access to high quality consumables. When these two players both interact with the third player who enjoys the finances of buying low and selling high you suddenly have a working economy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Matthew
The problem with your position is that you want to make the minigames mandatory and feel that they will always add tot eh game.
My doubt is that after you have done it a few times a minigame could become stale. I, for example, love the managing craft part and hate the "you must hit the rock when the pulsating ring is at the right spot for maximum efficiency" minigame.
Making something that is different for each craft and will stay interesting forever is a hard challenge and will require a lot of resources if it can even be done.
I don't want to have the crafting professions cornered by those that love some kind of minigame or can craft a bot capable to do them automatically.
On that same line, games like bejeweled and peggle would make good mini-games that would be both simple and familiar enough to people that the curve wouldn't be too bad. Off the top of my head I'd say they go well with Enchanting and Fletching, respectively. Clearly brand new and totally engrossing games would be preferable, but we can't expect a team as small as Goblinworks to create this incredibly ambitious mmo and several quality mini-games on top of it. I'd think this would be the *perfect* thing to offer up to the community for development, once that middle-ware were chosen.
And here we learn that we are thinking to two very different concept when speaking of "minigames". I think of something game related, like selecting the ore for making a sword and hitting the metal just right, you think of something that is totally outside the main game.
I agree that bejeweled could keep you interested almost forever, but it will break immersion too.-* - * - *-
Then there is a problem with what will happen in a PvP game when you are doing a complex minigame and someone attack you.
You care forced to leave it with loss of material/time/resources?
You can't leave it and you will be slaughtered without the capacity to defend yourself?
You can leave and resume it when you want?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just be careful the minigames truly ARE optional. If you can get a signficant damage bonus, for example, everyone will have to play the game when making weapons for use or take a DPS hit.
Exactly. The creation of stronger weapons as a minigame bonus is not a good idea, because no one will want items that don't include that bonus, which in turn means that those who forgo the minigame just won't be able to sell anything.
Instead, make the minigame bonuses things like we've discussed above - ingredient refunds, a chance to produce a second item, a chance to discover a new recipe, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The first two of those things have the exact same results. People who play the minigame will set the market value.
Player-crafted item cost varies pretty wildly in every MMO that I have extensive experience with (not sure about EVE, but in WoW, for instance, the amount of money you can make off an item can vary simply depending on what time of day you put it up for sale, along with about fifty other factors).
Lower-level crafted items actually tend to sell for under the market cost of their component ingredients in many cases, because a lot of people simply view leveling up their crafting skill as an investment, and are willing to take a loss during the leveling process in return for the profits they net once the skill is at max level.
Like I said in the economy thread anything that allows one player to make an item cheaper then another will create a market barrier to the second. The solution is to allow it to reduce production time, and even then I would be leary of anything more then double the time efficiency.
I've never seen production time as a meaningful factor in a fantasy MMO. EVE has lengthy production times, but they're very "hands-off" and one character can run multiple orders simultaneously.
In regards to individual games, IMO they need to either be as engrossing as "simple" games like snakes, minesweeper, or tetris, or be along the lines of fishing in WoW, where you can do it while paying a bare minimum of attention.
I like the first sort of idea better. A simple, easy-to-learn mechanic with the ability to increase complexity and difficulty, and with some nominal flavor connection to the task being performed.
The first two of those things have the exact same results. People who play the minigame will set the market value.Player-crafted item cost varies pretty wildly in every MMO that I have extensive experience with (not sure about EVE, but in WoW, for instance, the amount of money you can make off an item can vary simply depending on what time of day you put it up for sale, along with about fifty other factors).
Lower-level crafted items actually tend to sell for under the market cost of their component ingredients in many cases, because a lot of people simply view leveling up their crafting skill as an investment, and are willing to take a loss during the leveling process in return for the profits they net once the skill is at max level.
In EVE, items can be dismantled for component parts, so low level items have some intrinsicate value. Your dumb to sell at below these values unless you are trying to do something like help noobs by selling it cheap.
Because every item has a value in raw resources and a cost in those resources to produce, the availability of those resources drives all item costs. Premiums are paid for higher teir items that require larger investments in research. You can look up those costs and the current going rate of any items in your area, or others. People exploit their minor production efficiency bonus as much as possible and ride very tiny margins (to the point where some people don't realize they are actually selling at a loss. My friends started buying ship hulls to scrap them for raw materials after they did market research and found they could then sell the raw materials for a profit.) Buy and sell orders can sit out there for days or weeks if they are just slightly above or below what people are expecting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In EVE, items can be dismantled for component parts, so low level items have some intrinsicate value. Your dumb to sell at below these values unless you are trying to do something like help noobs by selling it cheap.
What I said doesn't apply to EVE, because you don't level up your "crafting" skills in EVE by crafting. You just queue up the skill and wait until it trains.
I was talking about games in which you must craft in order to level your crafting skill. Often players will just resign themselves to losing money on the leveling process, selling the finished crafted goods for below the cost of their constituent parts in order to recoup whatever they can.
In EVE, items can be dismantled for component parts, so low level items have some intrinsicate value. Your dumb to sell at below these values unless you are trying to do something like help noobs by selling it cheap.What I said doesn't apply to EVE, because you don't level up your "crafting" skills in EVE by crafting. You just queue up the skill and wait until it trains.
I was talking about games in which you must craft in order to level your crafting skill. Often players will just resign themselves to losing money on the leveling process, selling the finished crafted goods for below the cost of their constituent parts in order to recoup whatever they can.
I know. I was more trying to explain why in EVE you will see more consistent prices than other MMOs, which is relevant when talking about the people undercutting those who are less skilled. It is a very important thing in EVE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know. I was more trying to explain why in EVE you will see more consistent prices than other MMOs, which is relevant when talking about the people undercutting those who are less skilled. It is a very important thing in EVE.In EVE, items can be dismantled for component parts, so low level items have some intrinsicate value. Your dumb to sell at below these values unless you are trying to do something like help noobs by selling it cheap.What I said doesn't apply to EVE, because you don't level up your "crafting" skills in EVE by crafting. You just queue up the skill and wait until it trains.
I was talking about games in which you must craft in order to level your crafting skill. Often players will just resign themselves to losing money on the leveling process, selling the finished crafted goods for below the cost of their constituent parts in order to recoup whatever they can.
Ah, cool, thanks.
Yes minigames would be really nice, as long as they are not mandatory. Cutting trees or mining through a minigame can be fun some times, but lets face it, at some point you are going to go nuts. Maybe the minigames add a little extra wood/stone/ore, and when you dont use minigames it just gives slightly less resource.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I maintain that playing a mini game is always more fun than standing in front of a tree and attacking it until your carrying capacity is maxed.
And I disagree.
- Click attack, click attack, click gather the wood, repeat 10 timeslose every time against
- Target tree, click "cut the tree and gather the wood" and then sip you tea while keeping an eye on the screen for approaching unfriendly creatures/players
so the quality of the minigame and how mandatory it is count.
I maintain that playing a mini game is always more fun than standing in front of a tree and attacking it until your carrying capacity is maxed.And I disagree.
- Click attack, click attack, click gather the wood, repeat 10 timeslose every time against
- Target tree, click "cut the tree and gather the wood" and then sip you tea while keeping an eye on the screen for approaching unfriendly creatures/players
so the quality of the minigame and how mandatory it is count.
+1, especially if I can alt+tab out and do other things, like check my email or read a wiki.
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Goblin Squad Member
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+1, especially if I can alt+tab out and do other things, like check my email or read a wiki.I maintain that playing a mini game is always more fun than standing in front of a tree and attacking it until your carrying capacity is maxed.And I disagree.
- Click attack, click attack, click gather the wood, repeat 10 timeslose every time against
- Target tree, click "cut the tree and gather the wood" and then sip you tea while keeping an eye on the screen for approaching unfriendly creatures/players
so the quality of the minigame and how mandatory it is count.
Yeah you can, but you should also be aware that you might not be alive when you tab back, unless your mates are also guarding the area.
But would it really be so bad to have a little bar going up and down that when you click in the sweet spot you get an extra resource? You don't have to, you just get bonus if you pay attention. Besides then maybe there would be less whining about being ganked while AFK.+1, especially if I can alt+tab out and do other things, like check my email or read a wiki.I maintain that playing a mini game is always more fun than standing in front of a tree and attacking it until your carrying capacity is maxed.And I disagree.
- Click attack, click attack, click gather the wood, repeat 10 timeslose every time against
- Target tree, click "cut the tree and gather the wood" and then sip you tea while keeping an eye on the screen for approaching unfriendly creatures/players
so the quality of the minigame and how mandatory it is count.
I actually know many people who would be anoyed by such a mechanic. It is terrible design. Its basicly saying "we can't design anything compelling here, but we will reward you for wasting your time and paying attention." People will get annoyed that they gather slower because they are unwilling to do a chore.
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+1, especially if I can alt+tab out and do other things, like check my email or read a wiki.
And people want me to play in the dark for greater immersion. Sigh.
Or they could just let you gather materials offline. That way you wouldn't have to be bothered logging in to gather your stuff.
Now there's an idea with actual merit. SWTOR manages to do this well thought it usually winds up being more of a supplement to easy harvesting nodes.
My point is more that any minigame that is used needs to be compelling as a game in and of itself. People will be spending significant time playing them. It needs to be fun. Timing a single mouse click is not fun or compelling, and it becomes repetative fast. Its like jumping lightning (FFX). Its anoying gameplay added to fill in a void. Other, more interesting minigames could be something like a rythm game similar to Elite Beat Agents.