Magic Bracers of I throw daggers

[PSY850]

So I have a Build in my head for a rogue that when he actually decides to fight mostly throws daggers. The catch I have is trying to keep up with a high damage party without spending slightly exagerated millions on magical daggers all with returning so that when I actually throw from range on a full attack I'm not stopping after 1-2 throws. I'm not trying to min-max even though there is a little of that in the overall character build, just trying to play to the flavor without falling behind.

To this result I am mimicing a magic item from a particular drow elf's not quite evil counterpart Jarlaxle. I couldn't think of any way to do all if the bracers abilities, mainly he has the ability to snap the daggers out and then change them to longer blades but I'm not overly concerned there, Just an endless stream of enchanted daggers flying out and then dissapearing as the magic fades.

So I am enchanting a pair of bracers(hiring a cleric, sorcerer,wizard or whoever) with a Major creation spell, to handle the creation of the daggers. A component needed for the creation is also a dagger for each bracer(totaling 2) of whatever material the daggers will be made of. This will determine the duration of the daggers loitering about, basic metals being 20 minutes per level making it 3 hours, or 9 rounds with rare metals like adamantine or mithril.

Now comes the tricky part, enchanting them as they slide out to be thrown. My instict is just to treat them as ammo of the bracers so the enchantment would be treated like that of a bow firing an arrow. In that case you just pay for the enchantment like any other weapon, and a double weapon to be able to use it with 2 weapon fighting.

For an example lets figure out the cost for a nice set of early to mid level bracers. Adamantine Daggers with a +2 enhancement bonus and distance added in for good measure.

2x adamantine masterwork daggers 6002 Gp
2x +3 total weapon enhancement 36000 Gp
Major creation ??????

Heres where I am stumped. I know Item creation feats are needed, I know it'll be more expensive than a pair of enchanted adamantine daggers. I'm guessing it will be a wondrous item, but will also require craft wondrous arms and armor. I'd like some input on how to figure out total pricing, both for creation and for buying them like they are any other wondrous item that your local uber wizard might have in stock or not in your large cities.

Thanks in advance

Asta
PSY

[Lightbulb]

I have little contribute but this reminds me of a character from a game called League of Legends - Katarina. I don't really like the art style but I like the concept of flinging daggers out at an astounding rate but also fighting in melee when necessary. She also can teleport short ranges at will..

I'd like to make a character like this also.

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Been thinking though, is the easiest way to do this to say you have a magic item (of whatever description you want) which requires two hands to operate and which produces daggers as fast as you can throw them.

Takes two hands to work or the magic will not function.

You must buy raw materials for it to produce the daggers from.

In statistics terms is a composite shortbow.

Use the normal enchanting rules and buy the 'raw material for daggers' (arrows) 1gp for 20 which the 'magic item' converts to daggers.

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Has all the flavour without having to house rule a single thing.

Take Quick Draw to instantly draw actual daggers when you need to.

[Paul Watson]

I'd say start with the cost of Major Creation (5th level spell, so 9th level CL, total cost 5*9*2000=90000).

I wouldn't specify the daggers as a special component. It's flavourful but unnecessary, IMHO.

Adding enchantments would then be a secondary effect, so 3000*3*3=27000.

I'd suggest a range of items with different effects, just like weapons. So the base one whch produces +1 daggers would cost 93000gp. And the really potent one could create +5 Ghost Touch Seeking Flaming Burst Daggers of Distance for a whopping 390000gp.

I wouldn't think special materials would be necessary, but if you do, just add the cost into the item, i.e. admantine would add +3000gp to the cost.

[ProximaC]

If you're able to use 3.5 material, check out the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades from the Magic Item Compendium; it sounds like it'd be a fair base for what you're looking for, if not exactly precise.

[Hayato Ken]

90000 is probably a too high starting price. He´s gonna need them much earlier.

Look at this:

Iceshot Pistol wrote:

This +3 everloaded pistol deals ice damage instead of normal damage. On a critical hit, in addition to the normal effect, the target is entangled in ice. An entangled creature can break free by making a DC 25 strength check or dealing 30 points of damage to the ice with a bludgeoning weapon. The ice melts on its own in 2d6 rounds

The metal parts of an iceshot pistol have a blueish tint to them, and the barrel is constantly cold to the touch. In warm temperatures, condensation forms on the barrel and it may give off light amounts of steam.

Strong Evocation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, cone of cold; Price 50,315 gp; Cost 25,157 gp

It´s 3PP, but very nice in your case and far from being a game breaker.

What you want is the everloaded quality, treating daggers as ammunition.
You can´t get the daggers back after throwing then, but thats not what you want. I´m too lazy to do the math, but i would treat that enchantment as +1 or +2 max. Then just add +1 weapon enchantment to the bracers and whatever you want. You can also go into melee with them this way.

There is no similar stuff from original sources, but that should be ok.
Alernatively you could enchant bracers similar like a efficient quiver and use darts as ammunition. As a wondrous item you could possibly enchant them with magic weapon or greater magic weapon. Only you have to refill them from time to time. They could also be enchanted like a normal weapon, a bow or something. The item could also be a banderole.

Just keep it cheaper! The game already isnt friendly to ammunition or throwing weapons other then barbarians in rage throwing their 2h weapon for a ton of damage.

I´m not sure though if this item would be allowed in PFS. If you strictly follow the enchantment rules should be ok.

[Paul Watson]

You could use another suitable spell. Bow Spirit from the APG would reduce the base cost to 12000gp

[karkon]

You might be able to convince your DM to let you create a dagger alternative that is only for throwing and counts as ammunition. Similar to shiruken. Maybe they do only 1d3 damage. Then enchanting them would be much cheaper and you could have different materials and such.

[DreamAtelier]

Bow Spirit requires you have the ammunition in your possession when you use it, so that doesn't actually help him all that much, since the largest cost he's looking at is the daggers. And it's arguable whether or not the spell benefits from the magical enhancements of ammunition it fires (in that the spell gives a list of things it does benefit from, and magical ammunition isn't on it).

My first thought is to suggest a dip into magus for a level or three. It will get you access to arcane pool, which you can use to apply enhancement bonuses to daggers as you throw them. If you go three levels, you might want to consider the Spellblade archetype: it lets you create a dagger of force in your off hand, which gains the benefit of your arcane pool, in addition to your mundane weapon. And there's a specialized arcana for the archetype that allows you to throw the dagger, with it gaining returning if it doesn't hit.

However, most folks would consider a three level dip a bit steep to make a concept workable, so alternate thoughts occur as well.

First, thought, if you're absolutely opposed to being anything but a rogue, is to consider picking up the rogue talent Major Magic, and gaining the Abundant Ammunition spell as your spell like ability. This spell makes it so that all ammunition drawn from a pouch or quiver is replaced by the spell, even if it's masterwork or made of a special material (the spell is from ultimate combat). Better yet, if there's a magic spell affecting the ammunition (such as greater magic weapon having been cast on it), the replacement ammunition gains the benefit of the spell.

Downside here is that it has to be a magic spell affecting the ammunition, and magical ammunition isn't replaced. In point of fact, if there's magical ammunition in the pouch before you use the spell, you can't actually use it. But, if you get the pouch enchanted to cast greater magic weapon on the ammunition inside it, when you tell it to, you can get around that downside.

If you go this route, then just deck yourself out with masterwork "shuriken" that happen to look exactly like small daggers, while keeping a pair of real and permanently enchanted daggers in forearm sheathes for your up close fighting. Make the throwing daggers out of a host of different materials as well, for overcoming damage reduction.

Note that if you're willing to play a ninja, you can still do this (and actually be better at it), but you have to enchant the pouch to permanently be under the effect of the abundant ammunition spell, as well as casting greater magic weapon. You can go that route as a rogue as well, but it makes things more expensive.

[Sangalor]

PSY850 wrote:

...

2x adamantine masterwork daggers 6002 Gp
2x +3 total weapon enhancement 36000 Gp
Major creation ??????

...

I would go a different route. You basically do the same as using a bow but without the cost of ammunition.

But first you need the major creation part as you listed. Looking at the spell description it states for "Rare metal" (adamantium) the duration is 1 round/level. The minimum level required to cast the spell is level 9, so the standard duration would be 9 rounds for adamantium daggers. However, you only want them to be around for 1 round (to do the damage), so the cost could be reduced here. On the other hand, going for multiple attacks you could reach that 9 attacks per round, so I would not reduce anything here.
As a permanently active item, it would be 5*9*2000=90000 gp. Limiting it to daggers should cut this price in half IMO, so it would be 45000. This is with assuming
a) you can only create daggers
b) you cannot create one dagger for 9 rounds, but - as a free action - up to 9 daggers in a round which appear when you throw it (the "activation" method).
Coming back to the bow above, I would calculate the enhancement bonus price for a weapon, i.e. 3^2*2000=18000. Masterwork prices should already be included in the price for creation, so I would say the cost so far is 45000+18000=63000.
One could argue that the price should be doubled further because you have it as bracers which
a) are not a weapon slot
b) do not appear dangerous, giving you various advantages this way (like holding another weapon in your hand, passing weapon search checks etc.)
One could argue that the prices should be reduced since you could by multiple daggers for that price. However, you would
a) never get as many daggers as you could throw for that price
b) they would not return to you (read the returning property exactly, it basically means you may not move)

So I would say 63000 if one is generous, 126000 if one wants to be on the safe side should be the price. :-)

P.S.: Of coursem, when you create them by yourself, the prices drop accordingly :-)

[Blueluck]

You may want to consider the spell Abundant Ammunition in your pricing calculations.

Here's how I would build it:

• Declare that thrown weapons count as ammunition, so long as they are only thrown and not used in melee.

• Put Abundant Ammunition on a sheath.
  Note that, since sheathes don't take up space on the body, you can put them anywhere without "taking up" a magic item slot - so strap them it your forearm if that's where you want to draw your daggers from. You may want to start by having the item cast Abundant Ammunition once/day, then slowly increase the power of the enchantment until it operates at will. That would get you the cool effect early in the character's life cycle.

• Enchant a pair of gloves or bracers as a magical ranged weapon. Since magic ranged weapons impart their bonuses to ammunition fired from them, this takes care of "magic daggers" at higher levels. You'll start with +1, of course, but may want to add "Distance" after that. Just limit your choices to those allowable for bows.

• Don't mess with the game mechanics of drawing and throwing weapons. Just take the appropriate feats, like Quick Draw, and skip the house-rules in this area.

• If you want to use magic daggers in melee, just stick some in the sheathe along side your "ammo". There are plenty of sheath types that hold more than one dagger.

[dragonfire8974]

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/icicleDagger.html

icicle dagger as the spell. as a 6th level caster it gets a +1 enhancement bonus, and it lasts minutes per level and if you have it unlimited castings per day you could have an unlimited source of +1 daggers for 12000g

while it doesn't advance from there, having masterwork daggers costs only 2000g

as a GM i would allow full attacks with it as a continuous duration (multiply the prices stated by 2), but that's cause i don't find it game breaking at all.

actually, looking at it, for 24000 you can almost get 3 +1 returning daggers, so i would allow the enhancement bonus of the spell to go up to +2 or even +3 cause I like the idea, but the execution has to be sloppy

[dragonfire8974]

Blueluck wrote:

You may want to consider the spell Abundant Ammunition in your pricing calculations.

Here's how I would build it:

• Declare that thrown weapons count as ammunition, so long as they are only thrown and not used in melee.

• Put Abundant Ammunition on a sheath.
  Note that, since sheathes don't take up space on the body, you can put them anywhere without "taking up" a magic item slot - so strap them it your forearm if that's where you want to draw your daggers from. You may want to start by having the item cast Abundant Ammunition once/day, then slowly increase the power of the enchantment until it operates at will. That would get you the cool effect early in the character's life cycle.

• Enchant a pair of gloves or bracers as a magical ranged weapon. Since magic ranged weapons impart their bonuses to ammunition fired from them, this takes care of "magic daggers" at higher levels. You'll start with +1, of course, but may want to add "Distance" after that. Just limit your choices to those allowable for bows.

• Don't mess with the game mechanics of drawing and throwing weapons. Just take the appropriate feats, like Quick Draw, and skip the house-rules in this area.

• If you want to use magic daggers in melee, just stick some in the sheathe along side your "ammo". There are plenty of sheath types that hold more than one dagger.

I like this the best

[Sangalor]

dragonfire8974 wrote:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/icicleDagger.html

icicle dagger as the spell. as a 6th level caster it gets a +1 enhancement bonus, and it lasts minutes per level and if you have it unlimited castings per day you could have an unlimited source of +1 daggers for 12000g

while it doesn't advance from there, having masterwork daggers costs only 2000g

as a GM i would allow full attacks with it as a continuous duration (multiply the prices stated by 2), but that's cause i don't find it game breaking at all.

actually, looking at it, for 24000 you can almost get 3 +1 returning daggers, so i would allow the enhancement bonus of the spell to go up to +2 or even +3 cause I like the idea, but the execution has to be sloppy

Returning is not all that great: You may not move because the daggers return to from where you launched them, so this is a pretty big drawback IMO. Also you only get one attack with it per round and it's only +1 (though the frost property is nice).

Still a nice idea :-)

[Secane]

Whatever is needed to make a bag of holding should also be included in making this bracers.

[Cheapy]

Guys, the magic items don't need to mimic the spells that make them 100%. Or even 5%.

Is there a reason you want to be a rogue? It's not like you'll be getting sneak attack damage at range more than once or twice per combat.

Here are some other classes that'll help you make this concept work. And as an added plus, you'll actually be able to contribute to the damage ;)

The Soulknife gets a skill called Minddaggers which is...well 100% what you're looking for. Without spending 90k. This will let you do your concept from level 2.

Super Genius Game's Shadow Assassin can do this by 6th level, by selecting Shadow Blade style three times (and putting all 6 human favored class bonuses towards 1/6th of a shadow style). This will let you create weapons as a free action, letting you throw stuff. And it's before you'd get your second iterative! yay! This is probably the best bet, since they are basically a rogue with some different powers. No sneak attack and 2 less skills, but meh. Overall a better attempt at a rogueish fighter.

[Zephyre Al'dran]

Just another 2 cents here, but in the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium they have gloves that do almost everything you asking for here. I don't think it allowed for special materials, and there was a limit the number of enchanted daggers it could make in a day, but you still had an unlimited supply of normal daggers.

[PSY850]

I like all the input and thank you for helping with the cost of major creation. Having the daggers as a material component to create the bracers is kinda replacing and upping the materials needed for the spell itself to create them, kinda upping it to make it less of an uber boost that I'm making magical daggers to be thrown all over the place.

I know final call will be up to DM but I also like that the daggers linger for a few rounds so I can also use them in melee and enchanting it like seperate ends of a double weapon keeps it in line with normal 2 weapon fighting costs.

As to why I want to be a rogue, it's mostly flavor combined with the less combat related abilities. I actually loved the soulknife, even in 3.5 when it was a little underpowered according to alot of folks but the way our group is currently running the DM's that are taking turns dont want to allow psionics yet as we're still wrapping our heads around the balance as it stands. The ranged sneak attacks are a little hard to setup yes but I have a reasonable DM that has made flanking a little more flexible. Basically I can still be at range while somebody is in melee on the other side of the target.

The gauntlets of infinite blades are deffinatly a good place to start. It makes me think that this could get working alot cheaper. Maybe with the more limited use of major creation cutting the price down so a basic set of bracers just throwing regular or masterwork daggers would end up only running me 3500 or so. thinking....

3000 for major creation
600 for a pair of masterwork daggers as the material

or even as much as 6k for hte major creation of daggers, and after that it's just enchanting a double weapon. the cost of more exotic material daggers would scale the cost of being able to bypass DR, and enchantments scale like normal I'd say. what would you guys say to that?

Asta
PSY