Indeed, those numbers are way too big to be balanced.
Lob and TOZ, APG + UC pretty much fixed the monk, and gave him a variety of defined roles.I'm sure it did for your game.
yeah not for me it gave me some cool things the tetori, and the sensei and martial artist but i still want something else for the record i don't do the whole dpr calculations just my personal opinion adding wisdom to damage and to hit replacing ki pool or something else.
expected DPR = 0.95 * 1.05 * 24.5 + 3 * 0.95 * 1.05 * 21.5 + 2 * 0.7 * 1.05 * 21.5 = 120.385
expected DPR with ki-attack = 0.95 * 1.05 * 24.5 + 4 * 0.95 * 1.05 * 21.5 + 2 * 0.7 * 1.05 * 21.5 = 141.82875
I feel that you've just demonstrated my point, the DPR from our fix is middling, which is where the Monk should be. I'm comparing these numbers to those posted in the DPR Olympics, and to what we see at our table using standard rules.
Which is still less than most of the other Martial Classes, and sadly significantly less than the Wildshape Druid who by level 7 does nearly 100 DPR; and who shares the Monk's Immunities and important Saves, and.. is a full caster with some powerful spells. All of these comments on how the Monk is now *so op* :P seem not to account for the Druid. So is the Druid an imbalanced class, or are you saying that the monk should be a lesser class than the druid de facto?
The DPR increase from this fix is not an issue. Neither is a Rogue Dipping monk for always-on sneak, simply make this a higher level class feature (I've typed this four times now). Even so, a Rogue with always-on sneak is still doing meh DPR. And in my opinion the concern for small-monks being marginalized is silly, at least at my table it is.
There may be an issue with his AC, I want to finish up my analysis and make a fair comparison between his melee survivability, his low HD, lack of armor slot enchantments, and compare those issues to a Fighter.
Thank you for the work you put into that Lor.
--PC
120.385 or 141.82875 is middling? For a tenth level monk? Maybe if you are allowing some of the really crazy stuff in the DPR Olympics (tweaked out synthesist summoners and other stuff like that)--but in my experience a good solid martial class (such as the fighter/barbarian/ranger/paladin) mostly stays in the 55-65 range at level 10.
At 10th level, you can reasonable expect a level appropriate single creature encounter to have an average of 130 hit points! You are talking about a single character in a party being able to take out a monster of a CR equal to his level in a single round--with no assistance from any other member of his party.
Paulcynic, doesn't that at least give you some flashing yellow caution lights, here?
Master Arminas
Please link the 7th level druid that does nearly 100 DPR; I'm interested to see if he's really a valid character. What I've shown is PFS legal (other than the house-rule we're discussing).
And yea, at level 10 it is desirable for a fighting class to deal 60ish damage, and it is considered a viable build in the DPR olympics. The game appears roughly balanced around that sweet-spot. Yes, there are some retarded builds that can do significantly more than that, and I don't think that sort of thing should be encouraged. The monk I've shown is about as flawless a wrecking machine as you can make it; essentially no obvious go-to weakness. Even the druid would have crappy-ish reflex saves and no evasion.
Please understand, the DPR olympics are not intended to showcase nicely balanced roleplaying characters. They're about exploiting everything to the limit to find the logical extremes that can be reached. High-end DPR values in the thread should not be considered "go to" or typical or desired for balance purposes.
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I like the idea, but personally I'd say that the monk should have to spend a ki point for this ability.How long do you suggest it should last?
--PC
Well, everything else a monk spends a ki point for lasts one round, so that's a good place to start.
You'd have to be careful that you don't make it last long enough to trivialize the cost-- if the monk can keep it active the entire fight for one ki point, and the monk never finds himself out of ki in the clutch, then making it cost a ki point didn't actually accomplish anything. The monk should be made to feel like the decision to use it isn't a no-brainer.
I'm not sure the flatfooted factor is needed, but I really like the CMB/CMD as attack/defense idea. It really does play into the idea that the monk is doing something other than just dodging a blow, or hitting his opponent. It's more like he's redirecting the attack, or bending a body part the wrong way, etc.
If not as a "fix", at least an archetype built around this would be pretty fun.
The way I see it being implemented would be to have the option of using either option (maneuver bonuses or regular bonuses).
This way if you are say, using ranged combat, or defending against a ray spell, it makes more sense to use your normal values.
So the Monk would have the option to use CMB in place of his normal attack roll to try and attack in melee, and the option to use CMD instead of regular defense against a melee attack (or rather, whichever is highest, since it's not a roll but a defensive stat).
And instead of the flatfooted thing, I'd just allow adding Wisdom to damage.
Although, a nice 20th level kicker (if this is going into an archetype) would be to resolve unarmed strikes as touch attacks. Essentially, it's the guy who barely needs a grip or tap but yields crazy damage anyways.
Wuxi Finger Hold! *lowers pinky* Skidoosh!
Please link the 7th level druid that does nearly 100 DPR; I'm interested to see if he's really a valid character. What I've shown is PFS legal (other than the house-rule we're discussing).
Its legal, though when I reviewed my player's character sheet we factored in Outflank and Precise strike to reach 91 DPR. This was an error of memory to quote the high number and not the 'common' number. His character is level 6, and his total non-flanking DPR w/ pet comes to 53.76. His non-enhanced flanking damage (as in no teamwork feats) is 65.36. And finally his DPR with Outflank and Precise strike (best case) is 91.30.
Here are some photobucket links of the Character sheet. Please feel free to tear it a part.
By level 10, his Wildshape options and pet would put this druid build well above 100 DPR. Please keep in mind that my group has a very gameist Mindset, we see combat as a war game, and then we also enjoy role playing but treat it as a different activity. When we go into combat, we like it to be intense, and so all of our strikers are built to pump out the highest DPR possible. Please also note that they are not fighting kit-gloved baddies and so any flaws in their build (such as lower ACs) are sorely felt. But they synergize expertly, and this is all done within standard paizo rules (to the best of our reading).
--PC
Silent Saturn and Kaisoku, I really like these ideas. Thank you for sharing them :)
Also, I apologize for the delay, but my approach to analyzing the Paizo Monk v a Monk with my fix v a Fighter is a monster project. I want to present a legitimate picture of how this scales from levels 1-20 in relation to the other two. As I have said before, we did not look at how this would affect the last block of levels as it is just fine for levels 1-10. I should have done this before, and so when it is done I will post it.
I have another thread that centers on the Monk of the Empty Hand Archetype, which has a similar mechanic that treats opponents as always-flatfooted. The difference between that build and my fix is that the Opponent must be unarmed or have natural attacks. This shares the same degree of limitations that I've placed on my fix, though it uses a different list. It also requires armed opponents to be disarmed, which is effectively an activation-cost, and would be easy for a standard monk to pull off.
And so just to emphasize, The MotEH uses flurry with an enchantable weapon (which my fix does not allow, and so I feel these are balanced mechanics), has an activation cost (disarming, which my fix does not require), and still has a limited number of class/creature types that it can treat as flat-footed.
Really, the big issue isn't the DPR, its the high AC. Which is why am running thorough comparisons, as I feel that the Monk's lack of an armor-slot item and his subsequent loss of a major enchantment justifies it. But I'll run the numbers, report, and either stand by or abandon my premise.
Thank you all for posting and discussing.
--PC
but in my experience a good solid martial class (such as the fighter/barbarian/ranger/paladin) mostly stays in the 55-65 range at level 10.
A Natural Attack Barb hits 55ish DPR at level 6, and should be well over 100 by level 10, plus he gets pounce. Paladins are also much, much higher at level 10 than 55-65 against the great majority monsters (because most are evil). A Guide Archetype Ranger is much higher against 'significant' foes. I know that our Magus does around 40 DPR at level 6, so probably 60-70 around level 10.
We build our strikers for DPR, letting our Tank define the front line, and our healer/controller/buffer keep grease on the axle.
--PC
A natural attacking barbarian at level 6 has pretty much what he will have at level 10, the only way I can think of to get near 100 DPR is by going into style feats for dragon ferocity (more easily done going into martial artist monk) and reading power attack so that he gets the bonus of a two-hander.
Anyway, I ask you again: why would you play a fighter ever again if the monk was a better fighter than the fighter is? (and by what showed above he IS a lot better than any non caster combatant)
Aight, I've been running numbers on this fix post level 10 and everyone is very correct, the AC mechanic from this fix begins to run out of control in the later levels; which is not my intention. I did not realize how high the AC gets near level 20 due to how the Monk's CMD scales. I thought it would be high, but not to the point of unreasonable.
The DPR at level 10 is also high, as I was comparing it to the values obtained in the DPR Olympics, but also to the best case DPR (teamwork feats) we usually see at my table. Most of my players are doing nearly 60 'common' DPR at level 6, and will be doing nearly 100 'common' DPR at level 10 (see next post as a point of proof), if not higher. Their best case (teamwork) DPR at level 6 is already near 100, I imagine it will be greater at level 10. I will try and model future DPR tweeks along these lines as they are realistic and obtainable for those making Gamist-oriented characters.
Cool, lesson learned. I will lend more time and thought into an analysis of all levels, and if its conducive to expectations of the average/expected play by the Pathfinder forum community, then I'll post it here for review.
I already have a revamp for this mechanic, but I need some time to run the numbers all of the way to level 20 ;)
Thank you everyone for helping me reach this conclusion. I genuinely appreciate it.
--PC
A natural attacking barbarian at level 6 has pretty much what he will have at level 10, the only way I can think of to get near 100 DPR is by going into style feats for dragon ferocity (more easily done going into martial artist monk) and reading power attack so that he gets the bonus of a two-hander.
Here is a level 10 Natural Attack Barb build, which puts him at 85 'common' DPR, and 98 (teamwork) DPR. Not over 100, but certainly better than 55-60.
As for the Style feats, this is not an attempt at a 'gotcha' :). I thought Dragon style was an awesome idea, but unfortunately Natural Attacks and Unarmed Attacks are different mechanics and do not synergize. And for the intentional misreading of the 2H Power Attack rule, we just wouldn't do that at my table, as the rules are clear on PA and Natural Attacks.
Anyway, I ask you again: why would you play a fighter ever again if the monk was a better fighter than the fighter is? (and by what showed above he IS a lot better than any non caster combatant)
Forget my fix for the purpose of answering this question, as this fix is broken. There is still an interesting philosophical question to deal with though, which is "What About the Fighter?"
There are 18 Classes. Are they not allowed to overlap party roles? Can't each 'spec' into one or two primary roles and be just as good as any other?
The Fighter is an excellent specialist who benefits the most from Heavy armor, and the use of martial weapons, and doesn't suffer any 'limited resource' mechanics, such as ki or limited smite or favored enemy uses. He can obtain an impressively high AC and Intimidate Skill, making him a great tank, and he can out range-DPR a Ranger (shown in the DPR Olympics) if the players chooses to hyper-specialize in that way. And so the fighter can wear many hats, and perform them exceedingly well.
Cannot the Monk offer the same services in a different way?
As for my fix, please disregard it. As to your question, if you feel that each of the 18 classes should have unique party roles, which none-other can/should be allowed to perform, then I'm not sure that is a realistic vision for the game. Nor do I feel that it is conducive to the flexibility (and thus fun) of a table-top RPG. I have played a Wizard-tank before, I have played a Rogue-tank before; they were effective, fun, and satisfyingly different :)
--PC
The monk doesn't really have a problem. The issue is that a lot of people want to compare it to a Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin and complain that it doesn't have full BAB.
They commonly ignore the fact that the monk doesn't need full BAB to be effective.
So what do you feel are his strengths in combat? And, if you're feeling generous, what are his deficiencies?
--PC
using CR10 threat: target AC 24, target flat AC 22
attacking with power attack, at flat-footed target (since that is the norm), medusa's wrath applies:
attack = CMB - 3powerattack
damage = 1d10 + 16 = 21.5expected (except of first hit, from dragon style makes it 24.5)
attack sequence = 21/21/21/21/16/16
expected DPR = 0.95 * 1.05 * 24.5 + 3 * 0.95 * 1.05 * 21.5 + 2 * 0.7 * 1.05 * 21.5 = 120.385
expected DPR with ki-attack = 0.95 * 1.05 * 24.5 + 4 * 0.95 * 1.05 * 21.5 + 2 * 0.7 * 1.05 * 21.5 = 141.82875
I was thinking about modeling my revamp after the MotEH flat-footed restrictions, which would reduce the monk's ability to pump out high numbers like that. In fact, he would only do those sorts of numbers against a specific list of humanoid foes, ie Ranger, Wizard, etc. Which would be fine imo because doing spike damage against ranged targets makes him the anti-ranged specialist when combined with his fast movement. This would make him more 'Paladin-like' as he *can* reach higher-than Fighter DPR, but only against favored enemies. This makes him a specialist killer w/o being *toooooo* specialized (the core Monk's current major flaw) Otherwise his DPR will be middling. I'm really excited about how I am revamping this fix, and I hope that its copacetic at the higher levels.
That's not the only change, but I do want to keep flat-footed aspect of his fighting style, as its thematically rich. Anyone ever spar with a trained martial artist for funsies? I have, lul, and I pretty much stood there confused and wetting myself, he just seemed keyed into my advance, leaving me... well, flat-footed.
--PC
One point of contention that many have expressed about the Monk, is that he cannot flurry if he moves. So he moves quite a distance, but then only gets one action.
If this action is an attack, read here
However, if this action is a Combat Maneuver, read here
If he plants himself to deal damage, you are correct, he is wasting his turn. And yet, if he runs around the battlefield trying to use Combat Maneuvers--aka being opportunistic--he's doing it with an inferior CMB compared to the Fighter.
Many who have offered 'fixes' do not want the Monk to be a fighter, I certainly don't, but we do want him to excel at something--anything actually.
In my case, I'd like him to be a great unarmed/unarmored fighter, where his AC is very high so that he can get into a foes face without constant worry that his low HD (D8) will cause him quick death. I'd also like him to be an anti-ranged-attacker specialist. Some thoughts on how to change my fix
I'm not sure what other sorts of Opportunistic tools he might have.
--PC