Tongues

[Black Wolf]

While under the effects of the Tongues spell, are you able to also read all languages? The spell description leaves room for doubt as it states that subject can speak.

Furthermore, Oracle's Tongues curse states that he can 'understand any spoken language', which also confuses me even more.

What's your opinion?

[Jeraa]

Tongues only works with speech, not written language. Compare it to Comprehend Languages, which specifically mentions written things.

[Benicio Del Espada]

Technically, it only says you can "speak" languages, but it's a 3rd level spell. In my games, you can use it to read, too. YMMV.

[Buri]

I read it and understand it as being able to listen to a spoken language and know what is being said. I don't think it applies to reading as the Comprehend languages does and it makes a distinction between "understanding" and "reading." So, since the distinction exists, if Paizo wanted it to work the same in both spells they would have used the same wording.

Comprehend Languages:

School divination; Level bard 1, cleric 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (pinch of soot and salt)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 10 min./level
You can understand the spoken words of creatures or read otherwise incomprehensible written messages. The ability to read does not necessarily impart insight into the material, merely its literal meaning. The spell enables you to understand or read an unknown language, not speak or write it.

Written material can be read at the rate of one page (250 words) per minute. Magical writing cannot be read, though the spell reveals that it is magical. This spell can be foiled by certain warding magic (such as the secret page and illusory script spells). It does not decipher codes or reveal messages concealed in otherwise normal text.

Comprehend languages can be made permanent with a permanency spell

[Black Wolf]

Benicio Del Espada wrote:

Technically, it only says you can "speak" languages, but it's a 3rd level spell. In my games, you can use it to read, too. YMMV.

Yeah, that is good logic, but I also have a player who puts max number of ranks into Linguistics and I don't want for his investment in it to be made useless by one spell.

[Suzaku]

Black Wolf wrote:

Benicio Del Espada wrote:

Technically, it only says you can "speak" languages, but it's a 3rd level spell. In my games, you can use it to read, too. YMMV.

Yeah, that is good logic, but I also have a player who puts max number of ranks into Linguistics and I don't want for his investment in it to be made useless by one spell.

So have him forge or look at forge documents, have faded or encrypted test on some tablet. There are other uses for linguistic skill besides languages.

[Black Wolf]

There are, but there are few and far between uses for it. Especially compared to some other skills.

[GM Goblin King]

Black Wolf wrote:

Benicio Del Espada wrote:

Technically, it only says you can "speak" languages, but it's a 3rd level spell. In my games, you can use it to read, too. YMMV.

Yeah, that is good logic, but I also have a player who puts max number of ranks into Linguistics and I don't want for his investment in it to be made useless by one spell.

A good point, but knowing a language or making a check to decipher something means you don't need to burn a spell.

Having to burn a 1st or 3rd slot isn't better than just having someone who can do it easily without help.

Having someone who can handle most of your language issues is like having a lockpicking, trapfinding rogue. You can get by without it, maybe, but most casters would rather save their magic and money for other things, if they can rely on someone who can consistently do the job. Knowing a language is just way better than using magic to speak it temporarily. Even if cast with permanency, it can be dispelled.

A wizard could cast transformation and be a decent fighter for a little while, but it's still not as good as having the real deal doing the job, so the wizard can do something better with her slot.

[Hyperlogic]

The other trade off is there's a difference between speaking a language and understanding it.

Do you know what it means to attend class in the bushes, or to fall into the apples? To be next to the plate? It wouldn't break three legs on a duck.

These are the literal translations of a few french sayings. Someone who could merely hear them might not understand them but someone who had invested time in learning a language fairs a much better chance at understanding. I've got three words that drastically change the linguistics skill. Imagine Gnomish Idioms. Elven Slang.

It's a handy way to valuate the linguistics skill more since it is underutilized, and to prevent tongues from being the end all be all.

On a different note about Tongues, would you consider Tongues able to allow one to speak and understand Druidic? It would in theory, allow a Wizard to pass the Druid test.

[Severed Ronin]

This is what I take away as the main difference between Comprehend Languages and Tongues. Tongues allows you to communicate back and forth with the creature while Comprehend Languages merely allows you to ... well, comprehend what the creature is saying. Tongues allows you to speak and understand (Emphasis mine) the language of any creature. Thus, in addition to the verbal language, I would say that you'd be able to understand the written language of it as well.